Are Sansa and Arriane the only PoV's who haven't killed someone?

[FuzzyJAM]

Anyone fluent in quantum theory knows it proves Sansa is responsible for every evil in Westeros and beyond - heck, she's even responsible for the evils in the real world ultimately, along with every fictional world spawned from here and any other parts of the multiverse we may interact with henceforth.

Sansa is the Quantum Weather Butterfly of disaster, responsible for all "natural" disasters, war, poverty, strife and the Star Wars prequels.

[Gaius Martell]

Cersei would have acted anyway, thanks to Ned warning her several days in advance.

I do not deny that. However, the timing of her action was forced when she was given the plan for the Stark children's escape.

[Lyanna Stark]

Saying that Sansa's conversation with Cersei did not, in any way, affect Cersei's decision to move quickly in her capture of the Starks, is the illogical statement. No one has said that Sansa knew what she was doing or what the consequences would be.

That's factually incorrect. People blame Sansa for Ned's death (which is the problematic claim and it's made very often). Sansa gave Cersei extra information that allowed her to negate Ned's plans of getting Sansa and Arya out of Kings Landing. Of course, Ned was the one who made the huge enormous blunder of telling Cersei, which was the thing that started the torrent of destruction. Ned could also have spent the same time he did with Arya on explaining things to Sansa, yet he chooses not to.

You seem to not understand what the word "misogyny" means if you think that that is an example of it. If you think that a statement of how Sansa's misplaced trust in Cersei and Joffrey was a partial cause of her father's death is equivalent to a hatred of women, you need to... not use the word "misogyny."

But it is. Sansa's action is feminist. She bypasses the patriarch of her family (Ned) and appeals to a female role model (Cersei). This is Sansa's perhaps earliest rebellion against the Powers that Be, and she's condemned for it over and over again. This is while her sister Arya is constantly lauded for her rebellion against the rules, for instance when she does not want to sew, she runs away to explore, she fights with swords (the Mycah incident), but when Sansa rebells, she is getting an enormous amount of flak for it.

Absolutely misogyny and double standards.

[Gaius Martell]

If you think that disapproving of someone's actions is equivalent to misogyny, you have bad opinions.

[Bastard Walder]

That's factually incorrect. People blame Sansa for Ned's death (which is the problematic claim and it's made very often). Sansa gave Cersei extra information that allowed her to negate Ned's plans of getting Sansa and Arya out of Kings Landing. Of course, Ned was the one who made the huge enormous blunder of telling Cersei, which was the thing that started the torrent of destruction. Ned could also have spent the same time he did with Arya on explaining things to Sansa, yet he chooses not to.

But it is. Sansa's action is feminist. She bypasses the patriarch of her family (Ned) and appeals to a female role model (Cersei). This is Sansa's perhaps earliest rebellion against the Powers that Be, and she's condemned for it over and over again. This is while her sister Arya is constantly lauded for her rebellion against the rules, for instance when she does not want to sew, she runs away to explore, she fights with swords (the Mycah incident), but when Sansa rebells, she is getting an enormous amount of flak for it.

Absolutely misogyny and double standards.

I mean Cersei did have her direwolf killed. People criticize Sansa because it was a stupid move, even for a 12 year old. But Ned also made some incredibly stupid moves too.

Now that I think about it, if Ned let Cersei wear Lady's furs Sansa would certainly not have gone to her for help and the whole thing could have been averted. Food for thought.

[Winter's Knight]

I do not deny that. However, the timing of her action was forced when she was given the plan for the Stark children's escape.

Her timing was forced when Ned denied Joff's claim in the throne room whilst surrounded by Gold Cloaks and Lannister Guards.

I mean Cersei did have her direwolf killed. People criticize Sansa because it was a stupid move, even for a 12 year old. But Ned also made some incredibly stupid moves too.

Now that I think about it, if Ned let Cersei wear Lady's furs Sansa would certainly not have gone to her for help and the whole thing could have been averted. Food for thought.

Ned killed Lady on Bob's orders. She disliked the King for it and resented her father.

[NedFlanderStark]

Dany: Mirri, Drogo, Slavers, Book 5

:laugh: That made be giggle

[Lyanna Stark]

If you think that disapproving of someone's actions is equivalent to misogyny, you have bad opinions.

Well, of course it is. If someone disapproves of me sleeping with someone before marriage, or of me wearing a short skirt, or any of the other typically stupid things people say due to misogyny, of course it is "equivalent to misogyny" because it IS misogyny.

The same goes for people being outraged about Sansa going to Cersei but then in the next breath defending Arya for constantly breaking the rules, especially when sword fighting with Mycah.

You can think them "bad opinions" but they are 100% based on logic.

[Bastard Walder]

Well, of course it is. If someone disapproves of me sleeping with someone before marriage, or of me wearing a short skirt, or any of the other typically stupid things people say due to misogyny, of course it is "equivalent to misogyny" because it IS misogyny.

The same goes for people being outraged about Sansa going to Cersei but then in the next breath defending Arya for constantly breaking the rules, especially when sword fighting with Mycah.

You can think them "bad opinions" but they are 100% based on logic.

Um, no. Is telling a guy to pull his pants up because his boxers are showing sexist against men? Telling a girl her skirt is too short may be considered prudish, but not misogynistic.

[Zeromus]

She had an opportunity to push Joff down onto the dry moat with all the spikes. But she let it pass. Although it probably would've cost her her own life.

As I recall the Hound stopped her.

[FuzzyJAM]

Well, of course it is. If someone disapproves of me sleeping with someone before marriage, or of me wearing a short skirt, or any of the other typically stupid things people say due to misogyny, of course it is "equivalent to misogyny" because it IS misogyny.

The same goes for people being outraged about Sansa going to Cersei but then in the next breath defending Arya for constantly breaking the rules, especially when sword fighting with Mycah.

You can think them "bad opinions" but they are 100% based on logic.

You don't have to be a misogynist to think any of those things. To focus on the books:

I don't think Arya should have disobeyed her parents as she did and I don't think her parents should have forced her to conform to a role that she had no interest in.

I don't think Sansa should have disobeyed Ned as she did and I don't think her parents should have been so incredibly stupid in not understanding his children and treating one with favouritism.

I find it hard to view either of these actions as feminist any more than Sam's refusal to learn how to fight and control his weight and whatever is "masculist" - it's understandable and mostly reasonable rebellion against authority. The authority being (normally) patriarchal is mostly irrelevant - the key is that it's parents forcing their children to be things they don't wish to be and an argument over to what extent it can be justified by parents being unreasonable.

[PrinceHenryris]

Lol?

Time for someone to link the Sansa, worst person in Wesetros thread again.

Definitely NOT an Lol!

If she had told the TRUTH of what happened by the river rather than seconding the lie told by the pretty boy prince , I believe things would have gone quite differently.

[Bastard Walder]

Definitely NOT an Lol!

If she had told the TRUTH of what happened by the river rather than seconding the lie told by the pretty boy prince , I believe things would have gone quite differently.

I'm not so sure. Regardless of what he was doing, Arya and Nymeria still attacked Joffrey, the crown prince.

[jlk7e]

I don't see how Sansa's telling Cersei about the plan to leave King's Landing had any effect whatever on the failure of Ned's attempted coup in the throne room. Littlefinger's decision to have Slynt and the Goldcloaks back Cersei was totally independent of whatever Sansa did, and was the decisive event in the failure of Ned's coup. Everything else followed from that.

In terms of the original question, while most of our narrators have personally killed people - Pate is probably an exception - only some of them have actually murdered anyone. I'd say the murderers are Aeron (Benfred Tallhart), Arya (Dareon, the insurance guy in Braavos, the Bolton guard), Catelyn (Jinglebell Frey), perhaps Cersei (Melara?), Dany (Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo, although that's a mercy killing), Jaime (Aerys, Rossart, attempted murder of Bran), Melisandre (Renly, Cortnay Penrose), Theon (the miller's boys), Tyrion (Tywin, Shae), and Victarion (any number of people - his wife, certainly). I don't think we have any evidence that Areo, Arys, Asha, Barristan, Bran, Brienne, Davos, Ned, Jon, Connington, Quentyn, or Sam have murdered anyone.

For the prologue and epilogue guys, I'd say that Will, Cressen (not for lack of trying), Merrett, Pate, and Kevan have probably never committed murder, either, although Merrett was involved in a criminal conspiracy to commit murder. Chett and Varamyr are certainly murderers.

[salt]

And finally the circle of bullshit blame has been completed.

I'm not sure the two are comparable. I think blaming Sansa for starting a war or getting Ned or anyone else killed is absurd. Cat, on the other hand, was a grown woman who decided to take the son of one of the most powerful lords in the realm into captivity at sword point. This isn't a case of 6 degrees of separation between someone's action and people eventually getting killed- Cat forcefully arrests Tyrion on false charges, Tywin retaliates by having men kill Riverland smallfolk. Tywin is, of course, a bastard, but Cat incited these deaths much more than Sansa incited any.

Ned's discovery of Joffrey's parentage, the beheading, and the war would have still happened without Cat's arrest of Tyrion, but there is no doubt that it directly resulted in the deaths of many people.

[Cliche Guevara]

But it is. Sansa's action is feminist. She bypasses the patriarch of her family (Ned) and appeals to a female role model (Cersei). This is Sansa's perhaps earliest rebellion against the Powers that Be, and she's condemned for it over and over again. This is while her sister Arya is constantly lauded for her rebellion against the rules, for instance when she does not want to sew, she runs away to explore, she fights with swords (the Mycah incident), but when Sansa rebells, she is getting an enormous amount of flak for it.

Absolutely misogyny and double standards.

No, it would be misogynist if she were condemned for the fact that her feminist actions were feminist, but she's not. from what ive seen, she's condemned because her actions were disloyal and dangerous to her family, selfish, and stupid. just because she's a woman who happens to act in a pro-feminist manner doesnt mean anyone who disapproves of those actions are sexist. is ANYTHING done in the name of feminism justified? there are PLENTY of reasons to dislike her actions that have nothing to do with her sex, and to throw around accusations of bigotry as easily as you seem to do is pretty unfair to the peiple you're accusing.

[Ragnorak]

I think there's a hint that the girl who heard the prophecy with Cersei had some help from Cersi finding the bottom of that well.

[Bastard Walder]

I don't see how Sansa's telling Cersei about the plan to leave King's Landing had any effect whatever on the failure of Ned's attempted coup in the throne room. Littlefinger's decision to have Slynt and the Goldcloaks back Cersei was totally independent of whatever Sansa did, and was the decisive event in the failure of Ned's coup. Everything else followed from that.

In terms of the original question, while most of our narrators have personally killed people - Pate is probably an exception - only some of them have actually murdered anyone. I'd say the murderers are Aeron (Benfred Tallhart), Arya (Dareon, the insurance guy in Braavos, the Bolton guard), Catelyn (Jinglebell Frey), perhaps Cersei (Melara?), Dany (Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo, although that's a mercy killing), Jaime (Aerys, Rossart, attempted murder of Bran), Melisandre (Renly, Cortnay Penrose), Theon (the miller's boys), Tyrion (Tywin, Shae), and Victarion (any number of people - his wife, certainly). I don't think we have any evidence that Areo, Arys, Asha, Barristan, Bran, Brienne, Davos, Ned, Jon, Connington, Quentyn, or Sam have murdered anyone.

For the prologue and epilogue guys, I'd say that Will, Cressen (not for lack of trying), Merrett, Pate, and Kevan have probably never committed murder, either, although Merrett was involved in a criminal conspiracy to commit murder. Chett and Varamyr are certainly murderers.

Even though he may have been doing the right thing, Barristan's killing of the pit fighter was murder because the pit fighter was trying to stop Barristan's coup of the throne.

Griff spent like 10 years as a mercenary.

Is Jon's killing of Janos Slynt murder? I'm not sure about that.

[Silver Spearwife]

Off topic much?

For the purposes of this thread, I really think only deaths by the hands or direct orders/plots of the characters should count. In which case Sansa doesn't count because she never went out of her way to make sure someone died. Her actions inadvertently helped lead to the deaths of others and she was a pawn in other people's murder schemes but she herself is not what I would consider a killer.

Even though he may have been doing the right thing, Barristan's killing of the pit fighter was murder because the pit fighter was trying to stop Barristan's coup of the throne.

Griff spent like 10 years as a mercenary.

Is Jon's killing of Janos Slynt murder? I'm not sure about that.

The dictionary says that the technical definition is "unlawful" killing. Jon was within his rights as Lord Commander, so technically, no, it wasn't murder in the legal sense. Though bear in mind that by that definition, Ilyn Payne isn't a murderer (at least not after he took the job as the King's Justice). Easier to use the word "killed" and be done with it.

[Ramez012]

Even though he may have been doing the right thing, Barristan's killing of the pit fighter was murder because the pit fighter was trying to stop Barristan's coup of the throne.

Griff spent like 10 years as a mercenary.

Is Jon's killing of Janos Slynt murder? I'm not sure about that.

Yes, Barristan's killing of Khrazz should be considered murder since the guy was just trying to protect his king.

Jon's killing of Janos can't be murder, execution is the definition I guess. Just like how Ned executed that deserter.