[Book Spoilers] Dear Writers Who Do Not Answer To the Name George R.R. Martin,

[Sxxman]

This isn't close to the truth... Characters were drastically changed from the books

1. Stannis would have never charged the wall himself. He led from the back of the battle

2. Bronn and Sandor would never have gotten in a who's dick is bigger contest right before a battle

3. Shae would have never gone out of her way to help Sansa... or anyone but herself for that matter.

and most importantly,

4. Cersei would have never... never... never considered poisoning Tommen.

What happened here is that GRRM adapted all of these things so that we could get similar emotional responses as we had when reading the books. This is the exact same thing that has gone on all season.

I am not saying that all of the changes this year were as good as this, Mr. Martin obviously knows just what emotional response he wants from his series and was able to adapt these things better than anyone else.

Exactly, someone tried to tell me (and in the process their comment got 4 likes for some reason) that GRRM nailed Joffrey and Cersei in this episode when in reality, they were the same characters that were portrayed through the whole series. This episode was my favorite, but episode 6 was my second favorite but people nitpicked the changes in that one to death.

When GRRM makes changes = who cares, he nails the characters

When D&D make changes = ruining characters, future plotlines, they don't understand anything, the show is going downhill.

If people are going to nitpick about things being in the show but not in the book (and vice-versa), then don't be biased about it and only complain when D&D do it.

[Guest]

:agree:

I can not agree with this more...

GRRM is putting his name on this series. If any of the writing or producing would have offended him to the extent that we read about here, I am absolutely positive that he would have withdrawn. Instead, he is writing in the parameters of what has already been written a good portion is not exactly like he wrote it in his books. D&D has done a brilliant job of setting us up for this climax.

On top of this, Blackwater inherently had the most potential. I'm very happy that GRRM wrote it, and it was fucking great, but I suspect it would still have been a pretty great episode even if someone else had written it.

I mean, George didn't exactly write the visual effects of that wildfire explosion.

[King Tommen]

It's also very naive to think that a TV episode screenwriter is solely responsible for the finished product on the screen. Showrunners have their fingers in almost every aspect of the production of every episode, including the writing. Scenes are often added and altered after the script has been submitted.

So if you like the episode, it seems really silly to praise Martin solely for it and not acknowledge that the entire production team (especially D&D) had a hand in putting it together.

And it bears mentioning again that a big reason why some of the characters were so fleshed out in this episode was because Martin was allowed to stay in one location for the entire 60 minutes and not have to hop around every 3 minutes to check in on the other 7-8 storylines that he covered off in his novels, a luxury not afforded the writers of the other episodes this season.

He also got a massive budget afforded to him for this episode alone that D&D went to HBO begging hat in hand for so that many of the battle storylines could be executed effectively.

He gets the characters better than anyone else, of course that goes without saying. But somehow implying that everyone else working on this show is incompetent is ridiculous. I liked "The Pointy End" (Martins's Season 1 episode) a lot but it wasn't the best entry that year and IMO didn't stand head and shoulders above the other great writing work done that year by everyone else.

I hope we continue to get Martin to check in every season as he does bring a lot to the table but let's be honest in saying that "Blackwater" was an easy softball down the middle of the plate for him to knock out of the park.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Oh here we go.

Look, GRRM is the boss. I think this was a fantastic, extremely strong episode, which kept more in line with the book while allowing for cuts to be made. I hardly even cared about the changes, because everything else in the episode was so immense. This is my opinion, that is yours. No need to be insulting. If you don't think GRRM is an incredibly amazing writer, then why are you here?

If you took any insult, that's on you - I'm just calling it as I see it. This episode was undoubtedly the easiest to write of the entire season. While I completely agree with everyone on how well-written the episode was, just because the author of the books wrote it doesn't mean it's inherently better written than any other episode. Even the books have their flaws; I'm sure Martin would be one of the first to admit that even if some of his more fanatical fans wouldn't concede to the possibility. Bottom line is that George wouldn't have allowed D&D the opportunity to create this show if he didn't have faith in their writing abilities, and given his television background and the fact that he wrote these novels to be too big for television, I'm sure he's far more understanding about the changes that have been made than many book purists.

[SerMixalot]

was GRRM comparing the previous episodes to a barrell full of puke?

One wonders

[SerMixalot]

how come i get the impression varys is trying to recruit tyrion to the targaryen claim

[deleted01]

This isn't close to the truth... Characters were drastically changed from the books

1. Stannis would have never charged the wall himself. He led from the back of the battle

Dramatic effect for TV, a necessary change IMHO.

2. Bronn and Sandor would never have gotten in a who's dick is bigger contest right before a battle

Can't really explain this one. Maybe making them seem a bit more human? Couldn't say.

3. Shae would have never gone out of her way to help Sansa... or anyone but herself for that matter.

Shae has already been drastically changed from the books, so this was just going along with how Shae has already been portrayed.

and most importantly,

4. Cersei would have never... never... never considered poisoning Tommen.

You don't think so? I know it didn't happen in the books, but I think she could. It'd be out of love, in her mind, and to not give Stannis the satisfaction of wiping out the Lannister line. This is down to interpretation then, but I think it's possible.

What happened here is that GRRM adapted all of these things so that we could get similar emotional responses as we had when reading the books. This is the exact same thing that has gone on all season.

I am not saying that all of the changes this year were as good as this, Mr. Martin obviously knows just what emotional response he wants from his series and was able to adapt these things better than anyone else.

I agree. I just think he did it better, and I don't see why people saying so gets such a shitty response from some people :dunno: I have no problem with changes that make sense, like Ros replacing Alayaya for example, and it seems that most of the changes in this episode made more sense than some of those in other episodes.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Oh here we go.

Look, GRRM is the boss. I think this was a fantastic, extremely strong episode, which kept more in line with the book while allowing for cuts to be made. I hardly even cared about the changes, because everything else in the episode was so immense. This is my opinion, that is yours. No need to be insulting. If you don't think GRRM is an incredibly amazing writer, then why are you here?

If you took any insult, that's on you - I'm just calling it as I see it. This episode was undoubtedly the easiest to write of the entire season. While I completely agree with everyone on how well-written the episode was, just because the author of the books wrote it doesn't mean it's inherently better written than any other episode. Even the books have their flaws; I'm sure Martin would be one of the first to admit that even if some of his more fanatical fans wouldn't concede to the possibility. Bottom line is that George wouldn't have allowed D&D the opportunity to create this show if he didn't have faith in their writing abilities, and given his television background and the fact that he wrote these novels to be too big for television, I'm sure he's far more understanding about the changes that have been made than many book purists.

[deleted01]

If you took any insult, that's on you - I'm just calling it as I see it. This episode was undoubtedly the easiest to write of the entire season. While I completely agree with everyone on how well-written the episode was, just because the author of the books wrote it doesn't mean it's inherently better written than any other episode. Even the books have their flaws; I'm sure Martin would be one of the first to admit that even if some of his more fanatical fans wouldn't concede to the possibility. Bottom line is that George wouldn't have allowed D&D the opportunity to create this show if he didn't have faith in their writing abilities, and given his television background and the fact that he wrote these novels to be too big for television, I'm sure he's far more understanding about the changes that have been made than many book purists.

You've posted that twice, and I'm still not going to answer you, because it seems like all you want is another argument. People are allowed to moan about what they want - if you don't like it, don't look.

[Hot Pie Targaryen]

I would so love to see another reality where these same fans in this thread were under the impression that D&D wrote this episode rather than G.R.R.M. I suspect we would not see near the amount of praise that we are getting from the purists.

Whilst i agree this was one of the best episodes of the season, i think the main reasons for this is the nature (and budget) of the episode. D&D obviously love G.R.R.M's books and have done a fantastic job so far, and have even improved on some of the things from the books. This series is at the very least one of the best shows on Television right now, and the lack of appreciation on this website for anyone but the author is irritating to say the least.

This is what I was thinking. If it was not known that GRRM wrote the episode, I predict a lot of readers would be furious about the lack of the chain, the lack of the song and kiss, and the downplaying of Renly's ghost. They would say the Hound/Bronn scene seemed forced, and would probably have an issue with something from the books. Mind you, I'm not accusing people of anything, so I don't mean this to come across as negative at all. I just think it's a perception thing. Personally, I've been very happy this season. There have been some changes that I wasn't thrilled with, but overall this is easily the best show on TV right now. And has a better cast ever been assembled in the history of television? The most disappointing thing for me is that the season is almost over and the idea of waiting 9 1/2 months seems almost unbearable at this point.

[Faceless Sam]

The problem is that show Cersei is a better and more interesting character than book Cersei. Book Cersei is practically a Disney-villainess and pretty much Martin's worst-written characters, especially once she gets a POV. The non-Martin writers have improved on Cersei as far as I'm concerned.

I'll just write it off as the stress of the situation and the wine bringing out the worst side of her.

if you think cercei is a one dimensional villain you must have read different books than i did...

[Faceless Sam]

The problem is that show Cersei is a better and more interesting character than book Cersei. Book Cersei is practically a Disney-villainess and pretty much Martin's worst-written characters, especially once she gets a POV. The non-Martin writers have improved on Cersei as far as I'm concerned.

I'll just write it off as the stress of the situation and the wine bringing out the worst side of her.

if you think cercei is a one dimensional villain you must have read different books than i did...

[dreamcatcher]

Agree, the characters were well-rounded, each had his or her own motivation, I actually felt for them... this is how it should've been the whole season, instead we've been watching some kind of an interpretation by D&D. We don't want new interpretations, it's all in the books, you can't get more grey characters than that.

[Malgarroth]

To be fair, this episode did have the biggest budget out of all the episodes by far, so it was much easier for him to recreate Blackwater as close to the books as possible. I think that a lot of ya'll are overlooking that fact....not to mention the Battle of Blackwater and Ned's death were the climax in both the books...

Don't get me wrong GRRM did a great job, but he did have much more to work with in this episode than D&D had in any other episode.

You made a mistake there, but the correction reinforces your point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baelor

GRRM didn't write Ned's death. And it was an amazing episode, my favorite.

[Khal-a-bunga]

You've posted that twice, and I'm still not going to answer you, because it seems like all you want is another argument. People are allowed to moan about what they want - if you don't like it, don't look.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. I can share my thoughts on anything posted here same as you, and if you don't like it then don't read it. I'm not trying to pick an argument whatsoever; I simply dislike book purists and am entitled to do so, same as everyone else here is entitled to their point-of-view. Is every person who complains about the changes trying to pick a fight? I don't think so. They're merely giving their opinion, same as me. My opinion is that the show more often than not benefits from changes being made. Not because it's trying to be better than the story in the books, but because there is a finite amount of time and a finite budget to be worked with. I love the books and I love the show, but it seems it's easier for me to view them as two seperate but connected entities, which obviously isn't the case for a lot of people here.

[Hot Pie Targaryen]

Error message caused me to double-post.

[Balefont]

It didn't cost GRRM a single penny of any budget to write the characters properly.

Heh, tell that to the San San shippers. :P

[SerMixalot]

the actor playing Joffrey was excellent. He really played the scared but trying to do well child king well. Probably more appropriate for a 13 yr old than a 17 year old, but apropos for Joffrey

Would have love to see a scene where joffrey met stannis

"RUN AWAY!, RUN AWAY!"

DId anyone else catch Ser Moore giving Dinklage his line? "I will lead the attack" :drunk:

[Sxxman]

You made a mistake there, but the correction reinforces your point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baelor

GRRM didn't write Ned's death. And it was an amazing episode, my favorite.

I'm sorry about that, he directed the one before that. Don't know how I mixed them up, considering I listened to GRRM's commentary on "The Pointy End" where he kept saying that he wrote the episode (I believe he commented on "The Pointy End").

[Lord Godric]

On top of this, Blackwater inherently had the most potential. I'm very happy that GRRM wrote it, and it was fucking great, but I suspect it would still have been a pretty great episode even if someone else had written it.

I mean, George didn't exactly write the visual effects of that wildfire explosion.

No, but if someone else had written it they may have decided to not show that at all. I read an interview with someone from the show and they said they came very close to not showing the battle *at all* instead remaining inside with Cersei and Sansa and the women and having reports brought in about the battle. If Martin's script had not called for seeing the battle we might not have seen it.