[Book Spoilers] Stannis the Mannis

[Greywolf2375]

I thought Jorah Mormont was the first one to breach the walls at Pyke, cant remember where I read that

Thoros of Myr was through with that ridiculous flaming sword of his, then Jorah.

For all the epicness of the battle in this episode, the acting is what won it for me. ShowStannis is not BookStannis, and ShowStannis knocked it out of the park this night.

[ViennaGirl]

So was Stannis captured? He has some northern badassery to complete, obv... I LOVED him in this ep. I liked him anyway, even in the books, but I was ready to enlist in his army last night. But then Tyrion came along, and I was ready to enlist with him, too. What a perfect episode.

[sumpthy]

Stannis wasn't captured. That was his own men dragging him off because he refused to retreat.

[Lady Octarina]

I loved how they put Stannis there fighting and inspiring everyone and etc, whereas in the book he basically just watches from afar. But after he climbed the walls I was kind of worried about how they would manage to get him away from Lannister hands and back to Dragonstone, Storm's End, or wherever they'll take him. I wonder if he'll try to kill the men who dragged him away.

But I was angry at something: as much as I'm a Stannis fan, I had to root for the Lannisters this time, just like in the book. I blame The Rains of Castamere for that, and Tyrion.

[StannisandDaeny]

I'd just like to point out Stannis did fight off-screen in the series. He later mentions Lightbringer didn't serve him better than any other sword on the Blackwater... He wouldn't have found out if he hadn't used it.

So it seems I may be the only person on this forum who still dislikes Stannis. I don't care how badass he is. He: 1. Killed his own brother in a very creepy way. 2. Destroyed statues of gods -- ignoring that others may follow those gods. 3. He's an insane delusional man -- does he really believe he's some kind of god himself? He's as crazy as Aerys was. He's a heartless jerk if you ask me. And no amount of going out there first in a battle is going to change that. He has NO guilt/remorse/feelings about sending "thousands" to their deaths? He isn't any different than Joffrey who smiles when hearing the screams of men dying in the wildfire. Call me old-fashioned, but I don't want this series to be totally amoral.

No, you'll still get along great with Luis Dantas, no worries there ;) As for killing Renly, Stannis didn't ask to fight Renly, Renly chose to crown himself King full well knowing he would have to kill Stannis to remain King. Killing him was self-defense on Stannis' part. Although he's aware of what's happening in the show, in the books this is unsure as Renly and Cortnay have been switched around. Yeah he destroyed statues of gods... but he did not kill everyone who still believed in those Gods, and, taking the odds into account, his men needed a strong symbol to rally behind. The Red God and the new sigil were that symbol. Even when they're freezing all the way up North his men still clutch onto that belief, and don't desert him. There's a clear distinction between King's men and Queen's men in the books, based on their beliefs. Stannis sees the Red God as a means to an end and clearly doesn't believe he's Azor Ahai or any of that, he's not very pious at all (I always found this awfully clear from the books, like when he refuses the men their burnings in ADwD). So no, he's not as mad as Aerys... As a leader, you can't show shock, you're there as an inspiration to your men, sure you could tell the men the war is going to be all roses and sunshine like Renly would, but Stannis is simply honest with his men: thousands will die. And more of us will die if I lie to you and you're not prepared to face that fact. I'm sure he says that in their best interest, not because he's happy or doesn't care they're dying. After all he has nothing to win by losing men.

If you don't want the series to be totally amoral, perhaps you should root for Stannis ^^ He has far better morals than his incestuous enemies, or woman-raping, people-torturing Ramsay, or everyone who benefited from the Red Wedding.

[Chelly]

First off the boat, first up the ladder, kicking all sorts of Lannister ass and the last one to leave.

Sexy.Beast.

[insertname]

"As for killing Renly, Stannis didn't ask to fight Renly, Renly chose to crown himself King full well knowing he would have to kill Stannis to remain King. Killing him was self-defense on Stannis' part."

While Stannis is not as bad as Joffrey, he is no hero either. And claiming that killing Renly is self-defense is just laughable. He killed Renly, his own brother, because he stood in his way of becoming king, and that's the end of it. Stannis isn't cruel, but at the same time he is definitely ruthless and will do anything to achieve his goals.

[Howdyphillip]

If you don't want the series to be totally amoral, perhaps you should root for Stannis ^^ He has far better morals than his incestuous enemies, or woman-raping, people-torturing Ramsay, or everyone who benefited from the Red Wedding.

If you consider cheating on your wife with a hot red headed sorceress to have magical demon shadow assassins to kill your brother to be good morals, then Stannis has the high ground.

If you are like the rest of us, you consider Stannis a complex character with an equal portion of good and evil in him very similar to every other character that GRRM wrote about.

[Dunnii]

StannisandDaeny and Rockroi wrote some pretty compelling posts about Stannis. I understand more why people like Stannis so much. I just never liked the killing of Renly.

Obviously, like everyone else, I love this book series because there is always the unexpected and characters have many shades. BUT.... he is a rather amoral man, I think.

[TheEvilKing]

Potential plot hole that has been bugging me: Stannis was on top of the Wall when his soldiers started pulling him away. On one side of the Wall is a Lannister held King's Landing. On the other is Tywin and Loras's army. How exactly does he retreat without getting captured?

But yeah, he was still awesome in this ep.

[StannisandDaeny]

Going by booklore the Bastard of Nightsong led a rearguard charge that allowed more men to retreat and the Lyseni galleys were still held in reserve, it's not that hard to imagine them landing some troops to aid the retreat, or even simply providing some cover fire.

claiming that killing Renly is self-defense is just laughable. He killed Renly, his own brother, because he stood in his way of becoming king, and that's the end of it. Stannis isn't cruel, but at the same time he is definitely ruthless and will do anything to achieve his goals.

Renly declared war on Stannis. It wasn't the other way around. There was no cause of conflict between them other than Renly deciding he'd make a better King and being all too wiling to send men to their graves, including his own brother, and Stannis can't be expected to just back down simply because it's his brother threatening to kill him.

Btw, just a tidbit here, George did in fact at one point say Stannis might be the ONLY hero in the series ^__^

If you consider cheating on your wife with a hot red headed sorceress to have magical demon shadow assassins to kill your brother to be good morals, then Stannis has the high ground.

If you are like the rest of us, you consider Stannis a complex character with an equal portion of good and evil in him very similar to every other character that GRRM wrote about.

First of, we can't be sure Book-Stannis was aware of this.

You're right in saying GRRM's characters are grey rather than black or white however, but they're not all the same. Ramsay Snow is obviously far more evil, as are the Freys and the Lannisters. We don't ever see Stannis just killing people for no reason or sending his men to commit atrocities just to subdue his enemies. His character has developed in a way that has made him able to compromise, as his success in striking an alliance with the Mountain Clans shows. In a world full of grey characters, I still tend to root for the best guy among them, not to mention the lawful one.

[Harrad]

I would have gladly lay down my life for Stannis. He's actually the only character in the book that I like enough for me to fight for lol.

Stannis is in the middle of the "honor" spectrum. He would like to think and his fans would like to think that he is the epitome of honor. Sorry but that was Ned Stark. Can you imagine Ned Stark using the black arts to kill his younger brother to support his own claim, even if it were unassailable? Still Stannis treats Davos and some others honorably and is a brave warrior. A lot of that can be said for Jaime Lannister, for example, who also turns out to be in the middle of the honor spectrum.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Stannis isn't cruel, but at the same time he is definitely ruthless and will do anything to achieve his goals.

No. He agonised over Edric Storm, and when Davos made that decision for him, Stannis understood. Stannis isn't Tywin Lannister: he has morals.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Can you imagine Ned Stark using the black arts to kill his younger brother to support his own claim, even if it were unassailable?

Kind of a moot point, since Ned would never have found himself in the situation of needing to. I can't imagine Benjen doing a Renly.

[Honey Badger]

Still not loving the tactics employed by Stannis, although this episode was fantastic. Without the chain, Stannis with 200 ships still held the Blackwater. He lost maybe what, 20 ships? Big deal. From there he could contest every position with missile fire. Tyrion attempting to charge the mud gate from a secret outlet shouldn't have been possible. Also with numerical superiority, Stannis should have scouted, scouted some more, and scouted again just to be sure. He had the spare men to prevent Tywin from sneaking a march on him.

In the books, the chain plus the consistent wildfire launches took out their fleet. They explained it away with a blunder from Stannis placing an incompetent in-law as the fleet commander, when Stannis should have led the fleet. That, and not having the Red Witch's Deus Ex Machina birthing factory. Here, the Onion Knight and his King straight fucked up by not scouting and assessing the situation, which is what the book Davos complained about. Weird that they become their own worst enemy on the show.

[Ser Giant]

Stannis is the the best "Ned Stark" we have left though.

[Mediumjon Umber]

This episode clearly showed what "he will break before he bends" means. Even after losing the vanguard of his fleet he is the first to land on the shore. And when Tywin's army arrives to win the day, Stannis has to be pulled to safety by his men. Granted that as an aspiring king and general it's pretty damn stupid to be the first man up the ladders, but I think the show's Stannis is a much likeable character than the book version was at this point.

[victim]

Stannis' bravery was not on account of his idiocy but rather of his pride. While what he did may be unbecoming of a King, it was very much in line with the portrait we have been painted of House Baratheon. From all accounts, this is what these guys are like. Robert was just like this. Renly may have been different but even so I don't think he feared his pending battle with Stannis ever. All these men do is assume they will win because of their proud nature; Renly assumed he'd defeat Stannis in the field just as Robert assumed he'd slay his boar. Stannis being the first to climb the battlements is not different. He'd climb a much taller ladder to take his throne if he had to because Baratheon pride get's in the way of all else. Stannis wasn't going to stand idly by and let some "rotten-fruit" sit on his rightful seat, so he charged in head-first with his guns blazing (or perhaps more appropriately, his sword blazing) to bring that evil-little-heathen to justice. After all, it's a fitting thing for a Baratheon man to do.

Side-note: It's almost fitting that these men who march into combat with a grin on their face don't actually die on the battlefield.

[Dunnii]

But, if we are speaking of "morals," I find it interesting that there are such crimes in this world as "kinslayer" and "kingslayer." Stannis, no matter how you justify it, is a kinslayer. Later, one of the priests that supposedly buries "The Hound" talks about how The Hound was haunted by his hatred for his brother. It is surely a sin in Martin's world. I've never quite understood, though, the hatred for Jaime for killing an obviously insane king. Nevertheless, these sins are both talked about at length.

I would venture that Stannis will die for his sin of killing his brother. I guess I keep hoping for some morality as Martin plans out his character's fates. I also think it rather interesting how brothers/brothers and brothers/sisters have big problems in this series. I keep waiting for Jaime to kill Cersei. :)

Wow, great post, victim (above)

[StannisandDaeny]

The morals of Westeros have little meaning in such a barbaric and overall wrong society. Brienne's arc shows just this, even from the writer's point of view: she believes Jaime is bad because he's a Kingslayer without applying any logical trail of thought to it. Then, she slowly starts to understand what he did was right. I'm also pretty sure that, had a battle taken place and for instance Loras would have killed Stannis, no one would be calling Renly a kinslayer.