Ser Giant Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 When Renly was killed he was enemy of Stannis, not brother. There was no "kinsalying" involved, only the removal of an obstacle/enemy.I'll never understand why anyone ever liked Renly, he was Robert's spoiled little brother, that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsunad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 It was Thoros Of Myr. It's mentioned on several occasions, even on the show. Though it could be Ser Jorah was close behind him ;)Thanks. For some reason, I had Thoros and Stannis confused in my mind. I'm not sure how that's happened. :oI checked the books, and during the Rebellion, Stannis took Great Wyk. (ADwD mentions this in one of Asha's chapters.) So he couldn't have been at Pyke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanrn Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Renly wasn't exactly planning on taking Stannis alive, so it was kinda Self Defence.Its not really kinslaying if you kill your kin before they kill you.Mel wouldn't have made any difference on the Blackwater, unless she was a High Mage of High Thyr. She has never shown enough power to deal with amount of Wildfire.Not having a fuckwit in command of your navy or some decent tactics would have worked better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Smiling Eye Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Stannis is in the middle of the "honor" spectrum. He would like to think and his fans would like to think that he is the epitome of honor. Sorry but that was Ned Stark. Can you imagine Ned Stark using the black arts to kill his younger brother to support his own claim, even if it were unassailable? Still Stannis treats Davos and some others honorably and is a brave warrior. A lot of that can be said for Jaime Lannister, for example, who also turns out to be in the middle of the honor spectrum.Stannis isn't about honor primarily. He's about justice. Sometimes forsaking a portion of honor in order to exact justice is necessary. Stannis is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I know the song Don't Die With a Clean Sword references Sandor's command (and thus the Lannister side), but to me it's the theme to Stannis and his relentless strength and endurance. I admire unyielding, iron-willed heroes, and Stannis is number one. Nothing would please me more in terms of ASoIaF than Stannis sitting on the Iron Throne, preferably after having executed Theon, Littlefinger, and Daenerys. I wasn't sold on Stephen Dillane as Stannis in the beginning, but this episode settled the matter for me; he was fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I agree except on the killing of Daenerys part: he had a hard time choosing to fight the Targaryens and I hope that will drive him to come to some agreement with her. Fake Aegon however is grindermeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Red Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 The portrayal of Stannis in this episode was awesome, whilst it probably wasn't the wisest choice to go first up the ladders it was a pretty badass move and like people have said it suited him.Up to this I hadn't liked show-stannis that much despite liking book-stannis but this episode changed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Stannis leading his troops ashore also makes sense from the standpoint that the show removed the land based portion of his forces. THe only forces he has are on the ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofWinter Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 First off the boat, first up the ladder, kicking all sorts of Lannister ass and the last one to leave.The King Westeros deserves, the King Westeros needs.Pledge your allegiance!yup, i just might have to change my avi' for a stag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumpthy Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I know the song Don't Die With a Clean Sword references Sandor's command (and thus the Lannister side), but to me it's the theme to Stannis and his relentless strength and endurance. I admire unyielding, iron-willed heroes, and Stannis is number one. Nothing would please me more in terms of ASoIaF than Stannis sitting on the Iron Throne, preferably after having executed Theon, Littlefinger, and Daenerys. I wasn't sold on Stephen Dillane as Stannis in the beginning, but this episode settled the matter for me; he was fantastic.It represents both sides. The part that sounds like 'Warrior of Light' represents Stannis and the part that sounds like the main theme represents the Lannisters (well mainly the likeable people on their side). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Godric Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 When Renly was killed he was enemy of Stannis, not brother. There was no "kinsalying" involved, only the removal of an obstacle/enemy.I don't buy that. Especially in the context of the books. When Davos caught wind of Stannis and Melisandre's plan to kill Renly he told him it was kinslaying and Stannis was too ashamed to respond. He knew what he was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I suppose he should have just allowed Renly to kill him then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 It represents both sides. The part that sounds like 'Warrior of Light' represents Stannis and the part that sounds like the main theme represents the Lannisters (well mainly the likeable people on their side).I just listened to Warrior of Light and think you're absolutely right, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Godric Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I suppose he should have just allowed Renly to kill him then.It is war, but I doubt Renly would have killed Stannis. Renly seemed to want to work together - but Stannis wouldn't allow that because he was older and had the better claim to the throne. Also Stannis' methods were questionable. Killing your brother in war because he lost in one thing. Killing him using dark magic because you were going to lose is less forgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrad Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 When Renly was killed he was enemy of Stannis, not brother. There was no "kinsalying" involved, only the removal of an obstacle/enemy.I'll never understand why anyone ever liked Renly, he was Robert's spoiled little brother, that's it.How cornvenient! And when Robert was killed he was just a threat to the Lannisters, no "kingslaying" involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurararaFTW Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Yeah it was kinslaying. Treason mean death, and what Renly did was definitely treason, no matter if Joffrey was Roberts blood or not. Would it have more noble of Stannis if he butchered everybody else but spared Renly solely cause he is his brother. Like they make clear half a hundred times this episode, Stannis was gonna kill Tyrion, Cersei and all the Lannisters too. It wasn't like "I always hated my brother, so I'm gonna kill him." Stannis will kill anyone that betrays the Kingdom. If Tyrion, Varys and Cersei know Stannis well enough to understand this then you can bet your ass Renly did, he knew exactly what he was getting himself into, and he laughed at the prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Giant Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I don't buy that. Especially in the context of the books. When Davos caught wind of Stannis and Melisandre's plan to kill Renly he told him it was kinslaying and Stannis was too ashamed to respond. He knew what he was doing.That was kind of my point. It doesnt matter if Stan knew or not, Renly was not his brother once he decided to call himself heir and king. Renly was only an enemy.The morality of assassination is the only real issue with Renly's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Renly made the conscious decision to betray his older brother and usurp his throne, in violation of both morality and the rule of law. In light of that, Stannis would be entirely justified in ceasing to consider Renly his brother. Renly forfeited the right to kinship, so to speak.If not for Renly's actions, the houses sworn to House Baratheon would have been united and likely victorious against King Joffrey and the Lannisters. Hence Joffrey, Cercei, Pycelle, and numerous others would be put to justice for their crimes against the Seven Kingdom (and House Stark!), Sansa would be reunited with Robb, and Tywin would most likely be apprenhended or at least prevented from arranging the Red Wedding. Robb would be able to move his host back north towards Winterfell and deal with the Greyjoys & Boltons, and King Stannis would have the resources to truly fortify the Wall & the Nights Watch against the Others.All in all, I'm pleased that the deceitful Renly died a horrible death. It couldn't have happened soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticWind Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I don't think Stannis is necessarily moral or heroic, but for some reason he gives the vibe off that he'd be a competent administrator. His humorless, no-nonsense attitude contrasts with the depraved Lannisters, the ravenous Greyjoys, the honor-obsessed Starks, and his frivolous foppish brother. Stannis would not be an inspiring monarch, but he'd likely be pragmatic and capable. I think that's why he's saddled with the religious obstacle and a lot of his power base being dependent upon that shady foreign religion- it gives him strength but at the same time makes him a less appealing contender. Otherwise, more people would be able to support him just because he'd bring order to the realm despite his uninspiring, cold and calculating nature.Stannis is in the middle of the "honor" spectrum. He would like to think and his fans would like to think that he is the epitome of honor. Sorry but that was Ned Stark. Can you imagine Ned Stark using the black arts to kill his younger brother to support his own claim, even if it were unassailable? Still Stannis treats Davos and some others honorably and is a brave warrior. A lot of that can be said for Jaime Lannister, for example, who also turns out to be in the middle of the honor spectrum.I think one of the points of this series is that honor in of itself isn't everything. A lot of the "Ned is stupid" meme can be attributed to how pigheaded he is about honor, to the detriment of the greater good, at times. Whether it really would have saved thousands of lives or not, Ned rejecting the argument that assassinating Dany could have prevented a war because "honor" was at stake is an example of this. So Ned is honorable and nice, and loses his head for his troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirikr Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I think one of the points of this series is that honor in of itself isn't everything. A lot of the "Ned is stupid" meme can be attributed to how pigheaded he is about honor, to the detriment of the greater good, at times. Whether it really would have saved thousands of lives or not, Ned rejecting the argument that assassinating Dany could have prevented a war because "honor" was at stake is an example of this. So Ned is honorable and nice, and loses his head for his troubles.On the other hand, if Ned Stark hadn't been an honorable man, he wouldn't have inspired his children to such greatness. He wouldn't have inspired the noble actions of the Brotherhood Without Banners, nor inspired numerous other men and women of the North. Without Ned's honorable actions, the houses of the North would likely not hold such a high sense of loyalty to House Stark despite the power of the Boltons, either. One honorable man can inspire countless men and women to greatness for generations. Ned's honor will " ", so to speak, as will the honor of Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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