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Oberyn poisoned Tywin


jurble

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The body had been hollowed out and everything in it had been replaced. It couldn't matter that the bowels had been perforated, because the bowels were no longer in the body when the rotting was going on.

Sorry but the fact that the bowels were removed does not mean the bacteria were removed, as well. Once the bowels were punctured, there occured massive contamination of the abdominal cavity - that's why a gut wound was a mortal wound at that time, they had no means to battle infection within the body.

As for the speed of the decay - try leaving a piece of raw meat at room temperature for 24 hours, you will see for yourself.

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Then there was also the coin left in the jailers cell who was watching Tyrion, believed to be old coins from the reach used by Lady Olenna for tradespeople who offended her.

The "jailer" who was watching Tyrion was Varys, and the coin was a plant by Varys to get Cersei to suspect the Tyrells.

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Sorry but the fact that the bowels were removed does not mean the bacteria were removed, as well. Once the bowels were punctured, there occured massive contamination of the abdominal cavity - that's why a gut wound was a mortal wound at that time, they had no means to battle infection within the body.

As for the speed of the decay - try leaving a piece of raw meat at room temperature for 24 hours, you will see for yourself.

Umm... are you folks forgetting that not a year before they have buried _Robert_ who also died from a gut wound and whose bowels were much more extensively lacerated? The length of time for lying in state, etc. seems pretty standard and the procedures to keep a corpse presentable are likely quite standardized as well.

BTW, iRL royal corpses often lay in state for weeks and months, so it is certainly possible to keep them from rotting too badly even without the cooling.

Personally, since first finishing ASOS I have always thought that Tywin was poisoned with Widow's Blood, but by Varys. Yes, Oberyn wanted to kill him, but Tywin was well aware of it and of Oberyn's reputation as a poisoner. He would have been very careful when taking private meals in Oberyn's company. Also, it has been a few days, IIRC, between Oberyn's death and Tyrion's escape and Tywin wasn't yet feeling sufficiently unwell to consult Pycelle.

OTOH, in the chapter where he killed Tywin, Tyrion mentioned some beverage habitually standing right there in his quarters. It would have been a child's play for Varys's little bird to poison that.

Why mention so prominently that Widow's Blood was missing from Pycelle's stores if it didn't have anything to do with any of the deaths? And explain how it works in some detail?

Add to that Tywin on the privy in the middle of the night (no, even for older people it is not normal to try to defecate at night and Tywin was only in his late fifties) and his unnaturally quickly rotting corpse, which aligns nicely with "drowning in own poisons".

And IIRC, somebody (Kevan? Cersei?) mentioned in AFFC that Tywin was about to order Varys's death. So, Varys wasn't actually losing anything he wouldn't have lost otherwise, by rescuing Tyrion or by murdering Tywin.

Now, the main argument against it used to be that "Varys never takes direct action and only manipulates others into doing what he wants" (paraphrasing), but ADWD has shown how wrong that notion was. And that it was certainly his priority to take out anybody capable of stabilizing Lannister rule.

Now, with Tyrion it gets much trickier. However, let's not forget that Tyrion who didn't murder Tywin and who was grateful to _Jaime_ for rescuing him wouldn't have been much use to Varys and Illyrio.

That Tyrion wouldn't have helped Targaryens in their restoration, which he knew had to culminate in the deaths of the niece and nephew who he was fond of, Jaime's kids.

So, IMHO Varys had to do something to get Tyrion into the right frame of mind.

Personally, I find it unlikely that if Shae had any personal contact with Tywin, she would have thought that it was a good idea to wear his necklace of office.

But given the sick and twisted Tywin/Tyrion dynamic I can't exclude some pathological need on Tywin's part to use Tyrion's mistress, not because he was in a habit of whoring (which I think he wasn't), but because Tyrion was clearly smitten with her and it would have been some bizarro form of revenge on the dwarf who deprived Tywin of his beloved wife.

Either way, IMHO Varys gambled that the sight of Shae in Tywin's bed would be just the thing to finally turn Tyrion into a useful tool for his pro-Targaryen schemes.

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Umm... are you folks forgetting that not a year before they have buried _Robert_ who also died from a gut wound and whose bowels were much more extensively lacerated? The length of time for lying in state, etc. seems pretty standard and the procedures to keep a corpse presentable are likely quite standardized as well.

You mean Robert who could smell his own stink? And again, a bolt to the guts is not standard. Not when you're full of shit.

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You mean Robert who could smell his own stink? And again, a bolt to the guts is not standard. Not when you're full of shit.

But nothing untoward happened to Robert's body during the wake. It behaved as expected despite larger contamination from the much more extensively damaged bowels, substantially fleshier frame and warmer weather.

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But nothing untoward happened to Robert's body during the wake. It behaved as expected despite larger contamination from the much more extensively damaged bowels, substantially fleshier frame and warmer weather.

Did we see the wake? Did he get the same wake thing?

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Did we see the wake?

Nope. But Cersei certainly did. And yet Tywin's foul stench is something new for her.

Did he get the same wake thing?

Most certainly. He was, after all, a king.

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Yes i always though this too!, Just him being in kingslanding i had him under the radar from the beggining but it was definitely Doran who made the command. GRRM even forshadows it in ADWD page 510

""I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, Dangerous, Unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely then you know.......

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was going to enter the thread and be all "Come on, give me a break", but I'm pretty convinced. As others said, not convinced Tyrion knew (maybe he put it together after the Trial or something but I doubt it), but the rest would explain a lot. The Doran comment from Dance is a good hint too...it's pretty common knowledge Oberyn poisoned the Mountain, nor is it at all likely he went to Kings Landing to kill Gregor (Gregor was only there because of the trial, otherwise there'd be no reason to expect him to be there anytime soon), so what were they up to? Revenge against Tywin makes the most sense there.

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Good theory. But like all theories there is evidence for it and evidence against it.

The most important fact is if the "Widow's Blood" locks up your bowels, how was Tywin ever able to deficate? Remember his bowels were loosed when he died with the quiver in them.

There is no other mention in the stories of Tywin being ill.

As for the rot, remember Tywin was dead for a good bit before they found him, with out the normal post death treatments, rot probably set in real fast.

Tywin was banging Shae, Tywin was exposed as a hypocrite in his death, why do folks think Shae was in his bed butt naked and asked if he had "returned?"

Could have have been poisoned? Yes, but there is evidence to the contrary.

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What does the Shae thing have to do with it though? I agree with you but why is that evidence he wasn't poisoned?

I also wouldn't expect it to be mentioned that he's ill. Tywin is all about the appearance of infallibility, I'm sure the last thing he would want to do is let everyone know all about it, or even let ANYONE know, especially if he didn't think it was poison.

As for the rot, I don't know the details of how bodies rot, how long they take, etc. But everyone who commented on it, including Pycelle who should know, seemed to think it was very out of the ordinary. Pycelle in particular seemed perplexed. It's not like he was dead for a week and they mistakenly thought he had died an hour before, they would have had a good idea of roughly when he died, so I take Pycelles reaction as an indication that it wasn't normal rot at all.

I agree this isn't definitive proof but I find it pretty convincing, aside from the Tyrion part.

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I'm in! I like this theory a lot. Varys isn't the only player with moves and the Dornish deserved their vengeance!

Maybe a Sand Snake will give a knowing nod to someone after hearing about the fragrant funeral and we can get some confirmation!

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Good theory. But like all theories there is evidence for it and evidence against it.

The most important fact is if the "Widow's Blood" locks up your bowels, how was Tywin ever able to deficate? Remember his bowels were loosed when he died with the quiver in them.

There is no other mention in the stories of Tywin being ill.

As for the rot, remember Tywin was dead for a good bit before they found him, with out the normal post death treatments, rot probably set in real fast.

Tywin was banging Shae, Tywin was exposed as a hypocrite in his death, why do folks think Shae was in his bed butt naked and asked if he had "returned?"

Could have have been poisoned? Yes, but there is evidence to the contrary.

His bowels likely loosed at the moment of death because every one of his muscles(include the "smooth" peristaltic muscles in the G.I tract relaxed simultaneously, not uncommon.

Likely also drawing a parallel towards Tywin's humanity, as he dies he reveals his corruption and hypocrisy to Tyrion(who he betrayed regarding Tysha, even though he was using Tyrion's own whore) and this is paralleled by his loosed bowels.

Similar to his horse shitting at the foot of the Iron Throne and revealing that his role as the "saviour" of the city, and the politics of the game of thrones in general are utter horseshit.

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That could be it.

I like to think of Tywin's funeral as a reference to the Brothers Karamazov. In TBK, a priest that is loved by some and hated by others dies, and his body begins to stink up the church during his service. This makes the people there talk smack about him. Tywin may not have been loved but he was certainly respected by many, as well as despised. And if I recall correctly, during the funeral a lot of the people (mostly those from high garden) were being snarky about it.

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For sure, I don't think Oberyn would willingly put his life on the line in single combat without a backup plan to take care of Tywin.

That's a good point that occurred to me as well. No doubt he wanted revenge on the Mountain as well for actually doing the deed, but Doran doesn't exactly hide that they were working together and wanted revenge on Tywin for ordering it.

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