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Oberyn poisoned Tywin


jurble

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why wasn't Mace Tyrell poisoned as well? he was with Oberyn and Tywin yet we hear nothing of him having problems. unless he is part of the conspiracy to bring the Targs back into power with Doran. they are only lords of the reach and warden of the south because of the Targs.

First off, it would arouse too much attention if the two most powerful men behind the Iron Throne dies at the same time, with the same symptons. Everyone will think of poisoning. Tywin dying alone, however, can much more readily be explained away as a sudden illness. Pycelle certainly couldn't explain what was wrong with Tywin's corpse.

Second, Oberyn has no beef with House Tyrell. Sure, Mace was resentful about Oberyn happening to be Willas' opponent the day he fell from his horse and was crippled, but Oberyn didn't seem to care.

On topic, the only thing I don't buy is Tyrion knowing about the poisoning. Oberyn poisoning Tywin seems credible enough.

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I believe it's plausible tilting towards probable.

A case can certainly be made that Tywin was poisoned.

I think Varys would be aware of it and possibly

in on it.

But reading the thread and some of the comments

about why Tywin was in the privy instead of with

naked Shae got me to thinking.

First of all if he's in pain and discomfort from his

intestines backing up sex isn't likely to be on his mind.

But what if Tywin doesn't know Shae is in his bed?

What if he never had or ever intended to have sex

with her?

If Varys knows Tywin was poisoned and how the works

and maybe with a little confirmation from his little

birds he knows Tywin is spending most of the

night in the privy. He has other little birds drug

Shae and plop her naked in Tywins bed for Tyrion

to find. Tyrion I thought jumped to the same conclusion

many readers did that Tywin and Shae had been in

cahoots all along or his father easily bribed her to

turn against him at his trial.

But I think there are arguements against Tywin having

anything to do with Shae. He his disdainful of

prostitutes. He loved and adored his late wife and

has never remarried so you could argue he might

go to whores for release once in awhile but I

think you could argue he gave up sex after his wife.

But the thing that makes me think he wouldn't

mess with Shae is the story about his father and

the woman he took up with that made him a

laughingstock, the common woman who decked

herself out in his mothers jewels.

I thought that situation contributed to his dislike

of cheap women or women who sell themselves.

And he is sneering about whores up to the end.

A bit strange if you know you have one in your bed.

A bit hypocritical and I've never of Tywin as a hypocrite.

I just find it dubious he would be interested in Shae

for even a one off quickie.

I also can't imagine that he felt like having sex.

The poison had probably been working slowly

all day making him feel uncomfortable at least

but probably worse. I can't see a man in his

condition asking to have his whore sent up.

And I don't believe for a minute he was shacking

up with her even if he was shagging her.

The thing about Varys plan being dependent on

so many things happening. I think he might not

have known Tyrion trying to kill his father was

in the bag but I think knowing what he knew about

the people involved he thought it was worth the

gamble.

I think Varys was pretty certain Jaime was going to

try and help Tyrion escape. I'm sure Varys knows

the Tysha story if he knew Jaime's part in it he

could have thought there was a good chance that

Jaime who thought he might be seeing his brother

for the last time would feel the need to unburden

himself to Tyrion. Especially the newlyhumbked Jaime

who has just returned to KL.

So after the humiliation of the trial and his families

desertion of him Tyrion learns the truth about

Tysha then when he reaches his fathers room

Shae is naked in his fathers bed. He finds a weapon

and finds his father incapacitated.

I think Oberyn poisoning and Varys manipulating

a situation that could lead to Tywins death is

plausible far more plausible to me than Aegon

being real or any of the Lannisters being Targs.

Mace Tyrell could have been in on it just as Oberyn

and the Martells could have been in on Joffery.

But Oberyn was very intelligent and had probably

been planning it for a longtime and could have

found a way to poison Tywin and not Mace or

himself. I believe if Oberyn did poison Tywin,

Ellaria and Doran know about it.

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Wow that is quite the post there Florent.....good job :P

I noticed you mentioned how out of place it is having Shae in Tywin's bed, and while I'm not completely unwilling to believe that Tywin would be inclined to bring a whore into his bed from time to time, I simply cannot imagine him being anywhere near OK with a common camp follower wearing the Hand's chain. At all. No way would Tywin, after that episode with his own father's paramour wearing his mother's jewelry, let some whore wear the same chain he bore for over 20 years as the Hand.

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I also thought maybe Shae was planted there without the knowledge of her or Tywin, but after my last re-read, I think it was true. She stirs and says "Milord?," then begs Tyrion to take her away because his father scares her.

Still, Varys told him exactly how many rungs to climb and steps to take to get to the Hand's chambers, which definitely confirms it's exactly what Varys wanted. It's strange how it all intersects - Littlefinger suggested making him Master of Coin to make sure he was there to take the fall for Joffrey's death and make sure Sansa's marriage was destroyed. But Varys used this to take out Tywin and plant the Tyrell coin.

Oberyn and Varys being together makes sense, too, since either way, Tyrion was to be taken to be a counselor to a new ruler. It's just strange why he would ask Tyrion to help them raise Myrcella, when he knew of the pact for Viserys and Arianne, while Quentyn was being sent to get Daenerys.

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An interesting theory, but:

- older men do not need to be poisoned to have difficulties emptying their bladder

- with punctured bowels and the lack of disinfectants in Westeros, the abdominal cavity would be full of bacteria which would speed up the decay, even after the bowels were removed

- the climate in KL is rather warm; without a cooling system, the body would decompose pretty quickly on its own, and the smell of rotting flesh is really abominable

- Oberyn's remark about Tywin not living forever may only refer to wanting Tywin dead in the future, not necesarily meaning that he has already taken some steps to make this happen

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An interesting theory, but:

- older men do not need to be poisoned to have difficulties emptying their bladder

- with punctured bowels and the lack of disinfectants in Westeros, the abdominal cavity would be full of bacteria which would speed up the decay, even after the bowels were removed

- the climate in KL is rather warm; without a cooling system, the body would decompose pretty quickly on its own, and the smell of rotting flesh is really abominable

- Oberyn's remark about Tywin not living forever may only refer to wanting Tywin dead in the future, not necesarily meaning that he has already taken some steps to make this happen

Alcohol is a disinfectant and antiseptic. We still use it.

Westerosi have it a-plenty. Could they not have stove in a barrel of Dornish Red, and left old Lord Lion to drink his last cup within it?

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Alcohol is a disinfectant and antiseptic. We still use it.

Westerosi have it a-plenty. Could they not have stove in a barrel of Dornish Red, and left old Lord Lion to drink his last cup within it?

Wine does not have enough alcohol to be an efficient disinfectant. With the massive contamination of the area, I'm not sure even present-day disinfectants would have worked.

Besides, the body is full of germs on its own and the only ways to prevent natural decay would be cooling to the point which inhibits bacterial growth, soaking it in something that prevents the growth (various salts or some liquor with high percentage of alcohol) or dry-air mummification.

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Yet if it was a problem of having disinfectants, every corpse would have smelled the same... and everyone seems to think that Tywin's stinks more than it should.

By the way they have rum, so we can assume other strong(er ?)s alcohols.

But I don't recall rum mentioned in frequent use anywhere else than among the sailors, definitely not in KL, where wine always seems the drink of choice for Tyrion when he wants to get drunk, even though rum would be better for the purpose.

Does Tywin really stink more than he should, or faster than he should? Really, there are few worse stenches than rotting flesh, and as I have said before, the manner of the death wound may have contributed to faster decay.

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Yet if it was a problem of having disinfectants, every corpse would have smelled the same... and everyone seems to think that Tywin's stinks more than it should.

Couldn't this be explained by the fact that he took a crossbow in his bowels?

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I'm no specialist of the matter, but it isn't like crossbows are such a rare commodity in Westeros, or wounds in the bowels for that matter, that maesters would never have the opportunity to witness this phenomenon if it was normal I guess...

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Couldn't this be explained by the fact that he took a crossbow in his bowels?

No, it couldn't. Because, as Pycelle points out,

“The silent sisters removed Lord Tywin’s bowels and organs, drained his blood... every care was taken... his body was stuffed with salts and fragrant herbs...”

The body had been hollowed out and everything in it had been replaced. It couldn't matter that the bowels had been perforated, because the bowels were no longer in the body when the rotting was going on.

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No, it couldn't. Because, as Pycelle points out,

The body had been hollowed out and everything in it had been replaced. It couldn't matter that the bowels had been perforated, because the bowels were no longer in the body when the rotting was going on.

The...juices couldn't have seeped into his abdomen?

Yet if it was a problem of having disinfectants, every corpse would have smelled the same... and everyone seems to think that Tywin's stinks more than it should.

Well, no one else with a gut shot was left in the sept for so long.

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I'm no specialist of the matter, but it isn't like crossbows are such a rare commodity in Westeros, or wounds in the bowels for that matter, that maesters would never have the opportunity to witness this phenomenon if it was normal I guess...

Actually, a good point. If it could be explained by that crossbow bolt, it would be explained this way by one of characters. Either a maester, or one of seasoned knights (like Jaime, for example) would say: "but it's not unheard of, if the deceased suffered a deadly wound to the stomach, for his body to stench somewhat awful afterwards".

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The...juices couldn't have seeped into his abdomen?

He'd pretty clearly been hollowed out like a log. Everything---organs, blood---was removed, and herbs and spices were then packed into the body cavity, all to keep the body looking (and smelling) fresh. The idea that the Silent Sisters just randomly missed rather pungent bowel "juices" during this process strikes me as unrealistic, given the level of care this body was given.

Well, no one else with a gut shot was left in the sept for so long.

We don't actually know how long the body was in the sept before the rotting began. The body was already visibly rotting at the funeral, and there's no indication the funeral was in any way delayed. Cersei mentions that she was wearing an old black gown at the funeral because there hadn't been time to have a new gown made, but that's the only indication of how much time passed between Tywin's death and his funeral that I think we're given. There's no indication that this body was left to lie for any longer than usual.

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I love the theory and it could hold up with the crossbow and Varys. But like many have mentioned his organs were removed by trained professionals. There should of been no stink. I've also read other theories that are plausible about the Silent Sisters possible dislike for Tywins treatment of women and the order of rapes etc. Also possibly the Tyrells and concocting some kind of stink spray and putting it on his body while he was in the Holy Sept. The demeaning conversation between Cersei and Lady Olenna in FFC.

"I do abhour foul smells." Her wrinkled face wrinkled up even more. "I caught a whiff of something unpleasant at the sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelled it too?"

"No," Cersei said coldly "A scent you say?"

"More like a stink."

Now that was kind of thrown blatantly out there by Lady Olenna Redwyne. Almost like an admission of guilt with a I don't give a shit attitude.= You're going down and your daddy isn't here to stop us now.

Then there was also the coin left in the jailers cell who was watching Tyrion, believed to be old coins from the reach used by Lady Olenna for tradespeople who offended her.

It's just one giant mystery novel right now. I love the theory and hope it sticks because as of right now there are so many scenarios it's hard to keep up with. Well thought out.

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