Jump to content

Who is Mance Rayder?


TheLastHero

Recommended Posts

Actually it would be fun if Mance/Rhaegar went to Winterfell to see Robert, and Robert was so drunk that he didn't even recognize him :D

Have to admit, I would laugh a year. And then cry for I want Rhaegar and Dayne DEAD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the theory that mance is someone important, but it cannot be Rheagar. The story about him being a wildling women's son sounds like a cover up to hide a baby, and the only ones who have that much influence in the NW are starks. Rheagar plainly die though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the theory that mance is someone important, but it cannot be Rheagar. The story about him being a wildling women's son sounds like a cover up to hide a baby, and the only ones who have that much influence in the NW are starks. Rheagar plainly die though.

Why would a Stark's "bastard" being hidden at the Wall?

Not saying I don't believe it, just trying to go deeper in the theory. :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mance Rayder is Benjen Stark.

It is known.

(No, I'm not joking!

He is Benjen under glamour. Benjen swore the oath to the trees, north of the wall, just as Jon did, just as the First Men do, and he is a Stark of Winterfell, implied hands and feet in the Pact, whatever it is. And descending from the others, via Bael the Bard, whose name he used to be in Winterfell. And that explains why did he know winterfell so good, and he could move in the North without getting taken nor signaled, on the Knig's Road as well as on the Flint's mountains. Mance was not really a king in a capitol, but always traveling, not much people was with him all of the time. And when the time came, and the Free People reunited to march south, then Mance appeared with them. And Benjen got missing. It could be that the organized sentrys of the Free People column surprised and killed the rangers, just in the same time but... This is more interesting, isn't it? And by the way: who of the Night's Watch members we met ever spoke of personally knowing a diserter named Mance Raider? Or remembering serving with him? Mance even pretends to be the son of a watchman, not a deserting watchman... Something that has to do with the interpretation of what a "true" watchman is, as in 'the wall will be impassable as long the Watch is true'.

One strange point I'd add to the situation is the fine coincidence of Mance being a king that shares the cape's color with another dynasty of kings who have a living member of the north side of the Wall. Red patch woven over black tissue. As Brynden Rivers's father's family.)

that would be awesome

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have my doubts about Mance being Mance as well. He's just too badass to be a commoner in their world. I've always had the feeling that he was either a Stark or Baratheon bastard. Never considered him being Rhaegar though. it is a fantasy story. Anything is possible. The Mountain is once again Cersei's champion....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

think about it guys rhaegar.. raydar.. they sound prety similar to me. coinsidance i think not..

they both love music. coinsidence again.. probs not seen as music is prety unpopular.

both good swods men. again there are very few of these people in westeros.. the theory thickens.

all doubters can leave now!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar is dead. The only way he could possibly be alive is if he doesn't know who he is and even then, he isn't mance.

Perhaps he's a high born bastard, maybe even a targ bastard, little more.

He's important because it shows kingly leadership qualities are not bought with your sword arm, and leading people is just as much about balencing personalities diplomatically as it is conquering them. The Targs have a monopoly on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 1 year later...

Mance Rayder is Benjen Stark.

It is known.

(No, I'm not joking!

He is Benjen under glamour. Benjen swore the oath to the trees, north of the wall, just as Jon did, just as the First Men do, and he is a Stark of Winterfell, implied hands and feet in the Pact, whatever it is. And descending from the others, via Bael the Bard, whose name he used to be in Winterfell. And that explains why did he know winterfell so good, and he could move in the North without getting taken nor signaled, on the Knig's Road as well as on the Flint's mountains. Mance was not really a king in a capitol, but always traveling, not much people was with him all of the time. And when the time came, and the Free People reunited to march south, then Mance appeared with them. And Benjen got missing. It could be that the organized sentrys of the Free People column surprised and killed the rangers, just in the same time but... This is more interesting, isn't it? And by the way: who of the Night's Watch members we met ever spoke of personally knowing a diserter named Mance Raider? Or remembering serving with him? Mance even pretends to be the son of a watchman, not a deserting watchman... Something that has to do with the interpretation of what a "true" watchman is, as in 'the wall will be impassable as long the Watch is true'.

One strange point I'd add to the situation is the fine coincidence of Mance being a king that shares the cape's color with another dynasty of kings who have a living member of the north side of the Wall. Red patch woven over black tissue. As Brynden Rivers's father's family.)

No, just no. Jon would recognize his uncle the second he saw mance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I don't think Mance is Rhaegar but I did come up with a few ideas that play into the idea.



Who was at the Trident, glamoured as Rhaegar? Arthur Dayne. The only guy I can think of who would have the fighting skills and be the right age, possibly even close in appearance due to the Daynes having Valyrian-like features (so the glamour wouldn't have to be as powerful).



Of course then we have to come up with an Arthur substitute at ToJ, in which case I submit his newphew/cousin Gerold. Not that this would have fooled ANYONE, but there would have been a Dayne there who survived, and plays into him perhaps having knowledge that is dangerous. Even if he thinks Rhaegar is dead, he knows about Lyanna and Jon. It also answers the question of how on earth did Ned the decent swordsman slay the Sword of the Morning--he didn't. He wasn't just returning Dawn to Starfall, he was returning Gerold. And he also brought the news that Ashara's brother was dead.



Now if all that was true, and Rhaegar took off, then he's a huge jerk. Not only did he abandon his first wife and kids, but his second wife and unborn child as well. I could live with him being a major jerk, as it makes the serious hero-worship of him by everyone almost funny.



Then we have the question of how he managed to disguise himself as a guy who looks totally different. My only thought for this to work would be if he skedaddled over to Braavos and got some FM training which he then used to takeover the identity of one Mance Rayder. The switch could have been made when Mance was supposedly being healed by the lady who sewed the red silk into his cloak. It was after that that Mance turned his cloak and left the watch.



Still, I prefer the idea that Rhaegar is dead and Mance is Mance. If he has to have a secret identity he'll be some kind of Stark, or--in crackpot territory--Rhaegar's fraternal twin, possibly fathered by Ser Bonifer Hasty.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

A friend of mine has a funny theory that the missing ruby is NOT a metaphor for Jon Snow's hidden lineage (as I think), but rather is actually being used by RT, and that RT knew how to use deception and ruby spells to shroud his identity, first as Arthur Dayne and later as Mance Rayder.



His reasoning goes thus (I don't buy it if only for literary reasons, but just for fun here we go):


  • RT kept the sword Dawn and Arthur Dayne went off in his stead to die on the trident.
  • Dawn was kept back to prove Jon was the Promised Prince (the sword would glow).
  • RT, glamoured as AD (thanks to his sword: just as "Mance" uses Rattleshirt's bones) was about to kill NS when HR either saw through the glamour and/or the sword lit up and blinded them all.
  • NS ordered "AD" (actually RT) to the wall, as part of the not one but many promises, plural, he gave to Lyanna as she lay dying.
  • NS was also convinced by HR that Jon wasn't just any child, or any King, but THE King.
  • There was a guy at the Night's Watch who looked like Mance. RT stole that identity.

This explains why:


  • A ruby is still missing (re: Quiet Isle).
  • RT (the real one) was so skilled as to beat the best fighters of his day: using deception and trickery.
  • The music he plays is so sexeh.
  • Benjen took up the NW and is missing (he was supposed to keep an eye on him, maybe he even followed him?).
  • Mance is so skilled, literate and able to get people together to fight for him.
  • Mance is loved more than feared by his people.
  • Mance Rayder is such an odd name and why he seemed to "come out of nowhere".
  • AD lost to Robert (he had to die, for his lord, his prince and the new king). << I don't like this, but meh.
  • Mance can turn on/off the disguise (e.g. at Winterfell when he appears as himself despite wearing Mel's ruby).
  • AD looked like RT even during/post battle due to the massive amount of rubies (Rattleshirt looked like Mance even while burning to death, with just one of Mel's jewels).
  • Mance has such a curious relationship with Jon.
  • Mance left the NW.
  • He looks like an ex-Night's Watchman.
  • There's inconsistency in the number of cairns built at the ToJ. And other suspicious activity there (can't go into detail now).
  • HR hasn't appeared.

Another sub-theory put forward by my buddy, is that Howland Reed (HR) died saving Rhaegar, NOT Ned. Just like "Jojen paste" theories re: Bran. HR owed Lyanna his life, due to the Knight of the Laughing Tree situation.



He also has sub-theories about how he was able to out-con Melisandre, and/or might not be such a slave to her ruby after all, due to his own understanding of this type sorcery. Just a coincidence that RT is more closely associated with rubies than anyone? Well my friend thinks not.



He also suggested that it's a Frey, or even Roose or Ramsay in the freezing cage at Winterfell, not Mance/RT himself. And that the victim was given one of the two rubies. Obviously he thinks Mance wrote the "pink bastard letter", too.



I know, I know. It's bonkers. But it is a nice snug fit in many ways. I'll ask him to post the full theory on here but he's never online.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...