[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

[dark sister]

I'm sick of Roz's boobs. Every fricking episode. Whose girlfriend is she? Dan or David's. Finally, an end to Xaro Xhoan Duck Sauce that I liked. Jaquen and the Other's parade made my day. Thank you all for covering my complaints because I can't begin to speak on how much the HotU irked me. I did like the KL throne room scene. Fuckarys!

LOL

Just...LOL

LMFAO

Xaro Xoan Duck Sauce :bowdown:

[Chaircat Meow]

I was wrong about GRRM. I had thought he was pleased with the direction of the show and the writing. I suppose things could have changed since the last time I viewed and interview with him. Admittedly I havent watched or read everything out there about where he stands, how he thinks, and his views on the show during season 2.

I suppose at the end of the day it doesnt matter, all opinions are personal. As a major fan of the books, I find myself very much in love with the series due to the tweeks and alterations.

Just curious, when has GRRM ever commented specifically on the show's changes to either the characters or the plot. He has noted differences sometimes, like the show's Renly, Shae and Littlefinger being very different from his own versions, but he has never said they were better or worse or whether he thought they were a good idea or not.

He always come across, to me anyway, as a moderate kind of book purist. He has said he thinks adaptations usually change too much and they should stick as close as they can to the original writing. When he talked about his own adaptation of Zelazny for tv he did make clear he tried to stick as close to it as possible.

As regards Game of Thrones he has said the only character in the show who has influenced his own views is Natalia Tena's Osha.

To be honest I doubt we will ever know how Martin really feels about the significant changes. He may have a very relaxed attitude, or he could be secretly quite annoyed. Given he has been handed lots of money, and publicity, is selling tonnes of books and moreover has met the actors and show runners and writes for the show it would be really irresponsible to rock the boat and make out he was unhappy even if he was.

[Areo Speedwagon]

First, we all know he's going to, but Sam's survival is Absurd with a capital A. Loved the visuals, but the context of it removed me from the show. My inner bullshit alarm trumped my absorption into the story. Never a good thing. Second, I go back and forth with Jon/Qhorin. On one hand they set up Qhorin so well with Jeor saying he spent all of last winter north of the wall alone. Jon says "so it is possible." Jeor: "possible for the Halfhand." Badass! Then you meet him and he looks the part. But that's where they left it. We were only told he was badass, we didn't see it. Doing it the way they did muddled Jon's motivation, which a part of me likes. Did he kill him out of anger? Was he taking him up on the offer to infiltrate Wildling ranks? Or is he genuinely intrigued by Wildling life, Ygritte's speeches and the knowledge he can't go back to the NW getting the better of him? I think the writers are going for irony in that Jon is going to learn a lot from the Wildlings (that he's a warg), these people he's been told to hate. Also, Robb being married in the light of the Seven irked me.

Let's face it, the show isn't made for us, despite what someone posted earlier about at least a 30% overlap. If I'm an exec at HBO, I don't see 30% of a reason to make the show more literal, I see 70% of a reason not to. It isn't made for those that have the books memorized and post on forums when they should be studying, working, or paying attention to their children. The show is made for people with no knowledge of the story. No one (at least that I know) read the Red Wedding and got pissed because it was totally spoiled in the House of the Undying. But that's exactly what would have happened if they showed a corpse with a wolfs head, especially after Arya explicitly gave us Robb's nickname maybe three episodes earlier. Ok, not the Red Wedding, but certainly Robb's death. I've even read certain people getting angry because they think D&D are spoiling things in upcoming books with images in the show, and in their next (digital) breath complain that the HotU visions were missing. Do they not realize the gigantic "fuck you" they are giving to non book readers (70% of the viewership following the estimate above). Who cares if it completely spoils season 3 for you? It was in the book and I want to see it! To me, that's pretty selfish.

Someone a few pages back said that the burning of Winterfell wasn't a cliffhanger. That no one is going to be anxiously awaiting next season to find that out. But of the three friends I have that haven't read the books, it was a cliffhanger for every one of them. They were asking (via email) who did it, was it the Greyjoys, or did, and I'm quoting directly, "the son of that creepy deputy of Robb's go rogue!?" I think we need to give the viewers a little more credit. Yes, it's a complex story, but the Game of Thrones viewership probably isn't the Keeping up with the Kardashian's crowd. After LOST, The Wire, Sopranos, etc. I think tv audiences are indoctrinated into intricate storytelling.

[Nahlim]

jaqenhghar, my word of advice to you is - stop watching the show. No one is forcing you to. Read the books a 1000 times and be happy with them. Why would you watch something that annoys you?

No one says that you should watch the show just because you read the books. If you don't like it, don't watch and chill. You don't have a responsibility as a fan to set things right.

Oh, and Dany's dragons were fed by her.They didn't eat for themselves. They were babies and couldn't breathe fire. She was probably roasting the meet for them herself.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Nahlim

[Nahlim]

Frankly, I'm not here often, so I don't really care as much. I just don't understand the existence of "haters" as a whole. Maybe it's masochism. :)

Hm. Let's say you get a baby dragon... Would you figure it all out in an instant? :)

[Khal Pono]

Oh... i really can hardly weight for that angle to come in each and every single time.

Thanks for advice. I know how much better it would make you feel. Obviously.

and really...its my one desire in life to just satisfy some random posters requests on the internet.

Just look at my Extra Emotionally Engaging reviews.

ok, but why do you watch the show? you don't seem to like it very much. are you going to watch season 3?

[Istakhr]

I don't think everyone who criticizes aspects of the show here hates the show.

What most people say is that show falls short compared to the books. Certainly many merely good or mediocre shows are also watchable. ;)

[Khal Pono]

Because it was made to be watched?

Or would you rather that only people that like it completely and utterly watch it?

That's the worst answer ever. Kind of like the old I climbed a mountain "because it was there".

I could post about 10 links to material that was "made to be watched" but that I can almost guarantee none of you would enjoy seeing on any level. made to be watched. sheesh.

And since you ask, I suppose I would "rather" that people did not spend their time doing things they do not enjoy doing, if they have any choice in the matter. People who spend a lot of time doing things they hate tend to be cranky and beligerent.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Khal Pono

[Khal Pono]

Again... strawman arguments. But im oh so greateful for your consideration of my well being there. indeed.

:chuckles:

Never mistake my interest in my own well being for alturistic interest in yours. The only reason I don't want you to spend time watching a show you don't like is it reduces the risk of me having to encounter your bitching and complaining on the internet, or in real life, which in turns makes my day-to-day experience more pleasant, as well as yours.

[Khal Pono]

That was exactly my point, dear Khal Pono. Now, leave the arakh and those skins and whatnot on that other heap of armors and stuff.

Im going out so nobody touch my stuff until im back!

Please take your time.

[Nahlim]

Never mistake my interest in my own well being for alturistic interest in yours. The only reason I don't want you to spend time watching a show you don't like is it reduces the risk of me having to encounter your bitching and complaining on the internet, or in real life, which in turns makes my day-to-day experience more pleasant, as well as yours.

That's pretty much it. xD

And criticizing is okay. Hell, I've done it too for the final episode. But jaqhen here didn't criticize the show, he went and tried to dispute everyone's argument, not by facts, but by his personal views. That's just bitching around.

And I'm pretty sure he intended to insult me a little with the "strawman argument" thing, but it's fine. I'm just such a nice person. :P

[dark sister]

Again... strawman arguments. But im oh so greateful for your consideration of my well being there. indeed.

:chuckles:

Can you explain to me why you call these people's comments straw man fallacies? Because here's what I consider a straw man fallacy: "If you don't think that assassinating bin Laden was a good thing, you're like a terrorist yourself who wants to support him". I don't understand what any of these people said that were straw men.

(By the way, are you from the US or Britain? I ask b/c of the way you write -- and I mean no offense by that.) I just want to understand why you keep using that term where it doesn't really apply.

Also, I consider myself a book-to-tv "purist", I suppose, but I realized a couple of episodes into season 2 that D&D would NOT be following the same course they did as in season one. The two seasons are so different from each other (imho) it's almost like two different sets of producers made them. So if you are one who considers the purity important, I totally empathize with you. But I do think you are being a little bit hostile towards people who are just asking you simple questions. And I understand. When I first came to this board, some comments or issues really inflamed me and I would be hostile myself -- but now I try to realize that the more civil a conversation between the users are, the more likely we are to accomplish the goal of getting our points across. People are much more likely to listen to us if we treat them respect, instead of chuckling at them contemptuously, y'know? (Or that's what the chuckle seemed like, at least -- I could be wrong.)

[dark sister]

Of course, my lady.

First, let me state that for an argument to be a strawman it doesnt need to be something overblown. Its simply must state something that has no actual conection or truth in it - put in a way that tries to forcefully and fakely make it seem like the other party is actually thinking such things.

Lets take the "book purist" for example. If someone acuses me im a book purist they are strawmaning me - because that term means im supposedly someone who would want a complete 100% adaptation from the book to the visual medium - which is physical imposibility. Literally.

Not exactly, even saying "you think that assassinating Bin laden was a bad thing" is enough to be a strawman argument - if that person havent actually stated anything close to that point of view. But yes, thats it more or less.

I see what you mean now, my lord :) I have never fully researched what does or doesn't constitute a straw man fallacy; the example I made up was drawn from what I had been taught in high school English writing class, more or less. So I suppose you're right!

Do you actually want a 100% complete adaptation of every word, every scene as it goes in the books, chapter for chapter, each and every description of clothes and food and everything else to be transplanted into a visual medium?

Well then...

No, no, that's not what I mean by "purist" at all. Of course, translating one medium to the other in the way you described would be impossible, an exercise in futility, etc.

BUT, let's say that compared to other people who seem very accepting of plot lines that weren't in the books, as well as omissions, I am a "purist", although I try to suppress it to a certain extent because I know how hard it is to include everything that's significant (one example of something important that couldn't be included in the first season was the information about Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Ned's recollections of the Tower of Joy. But I understood how hard it is to make a dream sequence seem coherent).

However, certain aspects of the second season that do annoy me as a purist was the inclusion of Ros in so many pointless nudity scenes (and dialogue scenes) because...and let me say this delicately for fear of getting another warning point...I don't think it was necessary for her to be in the season as much as she was. Hint hint wink wink nudge nudge. Those are the politics of Hollywood that can make me a little pissed.

Also, the execution of some of the modified plot lines, imho, left viewers very, very confused. Not just confused in the way one should be confused and anticipating when one reaches a cliffhanger, but just genuinely trying to figure out what the heck was going on. I watched the show with intelligent viewers who hadn't read the books, so I know that for a fact.

So that's what I mean when I call myself a "purist".

Since the first season it was clear the production is overrun with numerous so called executive producers mingling and adjusting all of it, being a burden and an overall pain in the...something.

as stated in that one interview with the company that did CGI - which then hasnt been taken for a second season.

Not to mention constant changes of directors and writers too... which isnt the best thing imaginable by itself.

That's interesting, because while I noticed all the executive producers and directors (aside from the constant Benioff & Weiss) I never read about the interview with the CGI company and the effect it may have had on the series. I did notice how little Dany's dragons were shown in the second season. And also, there were decisions made concerning the dragons which I didn't understand -- why not just follow the book where Dany remembers what Viserys said about only men and dragons eating cooked meat, instead of calling him a "fool" countless times? Yes, he was vain and proud, but he actually DID know a lot about dragons. If she had even just said that line about dragons eating cooked meat, the confusion over whether they ate at all while crossing the red waste (and indeed, in Qarth) would have been solved. They wouldn't have even had to have shown the dragons.

Purity in the sense i described above - certainly not. It is not possible at all.

I consider end quality and good decisions about what gets changed and even more imprtantly HOW it is changed - important. Essential.

Well, I totally agree with that, I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.

Hostile? This is not hostility. Just a fully fledged discussion between adults.

And my arguments and reactions to lack of actual arguments from the other side which prefers to use strawman arguments and simplistic logical falacies as defense.

I appreciate the sentiment. And yes, you didnt understand that chuckle entirely correctly. It wasnt contempt but meriment. Khal Pono then went and proved it in his next answer.

Or... walked right into it, shall we say. Dont worry... im sure he will be alright after a maester or two look him over.

Haha, okay -- you see? It's really hard to read what someone's tone is when it's in print sometimes. (Other times it's all too obvious and very hostile!)

Anyway, thanks for the explanations.

Edited June 9, 2012 by dark sister

[Sunni]

I'm enjoying the series a lot. It's interesting to follow the changes from the books. HBO seems to be solving something that troubles me with the books (which I LOVE, otherwise) and that is the sheer number of characters. I really got lost in during the book that begins with (is it 7??) acolytes at the Citadel. I kept thinking how hard it was to keep the names straight.

To my mind it's better, especially on television, to have the main characters interact with each other more. I loved Arya and Tywin's interactions. I loved seeing Littlefinger with the Tyrells and with Catelyn. I loved seeing Khal Drogo in the House of the Undying. I don't think backstory would play well on TV. Sure, I love the story about Rhaegar, and the prophecies, but I don't think I'd be able to absorb it in a 48-58 minute episode that also deals with the many, many other main characters. When reading, it helps that I can reread chapters of the books, or look at the family trees, or find the Dunk and Egg stories, etc. Reading is a completely different experience.

Along those lines, I can't imagine we're going to get an entire tv season where Dany, Sansa, and Cersei just don't appear. At least I hope not.

I'm also going to have to watch the Valar Morghulis episode again, because I only saw wights at the end. I didn't notice any White Walkers, just the slow, clumsy wights. I'm not sure I remember seeing the Others at all. Where they in the very first episode?

[Ser Dontos]

Quarth has changed a lot, but I can't say I don't like the changes. The whole Dany story seems to be heavily altered, but it makes sense in terms of character development. All the other changes in the season are mostly good IMHO, since the "goal" of each story seems to be the same. The main difference between books and TV adaptation is basically the POV, or better the lack of. In the books we always experience what the character sees, hears and feels, but in the TV series we are the invisible observer, we can't read the feelings of the characters. I think that's the main reason way some scenes had to be altered, since some points of the "book story" only make sense if one can read the characters thoughts and feelings.

All in all it's a good episode, it's not like in the books, but I never liked Dany's adventures anyway. The only thing I didn't like was the fact that the WW didn't do anything about Sam.

I'm also going to have to watch the Valar Morghulis episode again, because I only saw wights at the end. I didn't notice any White Walkers, just the slow, clumsy wights. I'm not sure I remember seeing the Others at all. Where they in the very first episode?

The white thing riding the horse and looking at Sam is apperently a Walker, shortly before the credits show up there's another mounted WW.

[wotad]

the nxt book dany doesnt even appear so the next series i probs wont even watch if she aint in it

[Istakhr]

Well, another pretty big butterfly that i didnt even notice before from all the incredible other things is that, for all intents and purposes, Daenerys is now a Queen of Qarth.

The show striped away any other power group that could contend with that. Xaro and Pyat kill the thriteen , she kills Pyat and Xaro - therefore she is now defacto the ruler of tv version of Qarth.

Why is she going to leave? Not to mention anything else.

Well, in the show it is because she is an idiot, who is manipulated by Jorah to go to westeros with just one ship and dozen Dothraki. They will find some reason for her to go to Slave Cities instead of Westeros next season.

[David Selig]

Well, another pretty big butterfly that i didnt even notice before from all the incredible other things is that, for all intents and purposes, Daenerys is now a Queen of Qarth.

The show striped away any other power group that could contend with that. Xaro and Pyat kill the thriteen , she kills Pyat and Xaro - therefore she is now defacto the ruler of tv version of Qarth.

Why is she going to leave? Not to mention anything else.

So you automatically become a monarch when you kill the previous one even if your power base consist of a handful of men and you have no other followers? It doesn't work this way.

Edited June 10, 2012 by David Selig

[Istakhr]

So you automatically become a monarch when you kill the previous one even if your power base consist of a handful of men and you have no other followers? I t doesn't work this way.

Well, according to the show Xaro became king exactly this way, he didn't even have a dozen soldiers that Danny has.

But really it is all nonsense and nothing that happened in the Show in Qarth was logical.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Istakhr

[legba11]

the nxt book dany doesnt even appear so the next series i probs wont even watch if she aint in it

She has a HUGE part in book 3.