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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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I disliked that we got that nobody Ros but no Rhaegar. I wouldn't have minded Harry in a better, longer wig.

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Ros is really starting to bug me. I've been trying not to be to close minded about her role on the show, but there was so much that needed to be covered with this ep, we really didnt need another 5 minutes of a minor character. Her only real role int he show seems to be the character develpment of more important people, and we have plenty of Varys already. They really could have gone more in depth with the important story lines (John and QH were sceaming for more exposition, HoTU too) and left Ros out. The writers are far too infatuated with their own creation, they really need to scale her role back, especially with all the characters being introduced in S3.

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There seems to be a lot of confusion about White Walkers versus Others versus wights.

I'll clarify some things for people who are confused.

a. White Walkers = Others. The showmakers thought it would be too confusing to have a race of creatures we barely ever see called "Others" in a show when there are so many potential "others," so they've been perpetually redubbed as White Walkers.

b. The things running in the forest in the pilot episode are White Walkers, not wights. The little girl, she's a wight. The thing that kills Waymar Royce and Gared, speaking a language that sounds like cracking ice... that's a White Walker.

c. The slow moving fellow who tries to kill Mormont, that's a wight.

d. The gentleman who adopts Craster's son, that's a White Walker.

e. The creature(s) on horseback at the end of "Valar Morghulis" are White Walkers.. it seems they may have done a bit of a redesign, or it might just be that that is what they look like in clear light, without clothes on. The camera pans out and we see a second White Walker waving his sword and screaming. There are a few other White Walkers on horseback placed randomly in the background in the wide shot of the wight army.

f. The slow moving 'zombies' at the end of "Valar Morghulis" are wights.

I can't believe any book readers are confused by the above... it's very obvious.

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Hi, this is my first time post here. I've been a long time follower of this forum and really like what the community has accomplished with it so far.

So first of all thanks and thumbs up to everyone involved in westeros.org :)

As a book reader I would have liked to see some things a bit different as it was in the show (HotU for example) as a TV show though it does just fine (of course the books are way better but I am biased, so it might not be truely objective)

What really confused me in this episode and made me think was the whole "...you will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear..." about Stannis.

Now this might be spoilery or at least crackpot also for book readers (sry I don't know how to insert spoiler tags):

Does betraying everybody and everything hint to Stannis leading the White Walkers somehow, what we even haven't had in the books (yet)?

I am really curious what you folks might think about that...

(And sorry for my English. it is not my native tongue, so feel free to go Stannis and correct my grammer :P )

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I loved the fist of the first men scene with Sam trying to hide from the Whites, then you get a crazy close up of the Other on a dead horse. That Other was fucked up looking, I loved it!

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I'll take this rare moment of the forum actually working to get this in.

Over all, I liked the episode...with some notable exceptions. The HoTU scene was pretty meaningless. While some of the imagery was good, the why of it is never presented. It did, however give a rare moment to show that Dany has a vestigial brain that sometimes functions.

The scene of Robb getting married had to be included, other wise he has no excuse for not marrying Walder Frey's daughter. Whether it was the old gods or new, is not particularly relevant to the story line.

The Tyrion scenes, while at odds with the book, show the start of his fall from power.

Sansa, is as dumb as a stump, as usual, though I must admit here reaction to being set aside by Joffery, was fun to watch.

The scene with Jaqen H'gar, though out of sequence, was done well and was necessary for the continuation of the story. While I would have liked to actually see his face change, I can understand it wasn't in the budget.

Mance Rayder's encampment didn't look quite large enough to contain the numbers it was supposed to have.

The Jon/Halfhand fight had to happen, but made no sense in the context in which it was presented.

The Others were fine. I just don't get the Sam-hiding-in-plain-site made any sense.

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This episode was..well I guess it wasn't terrible, what with the Brienne+Jaime, Theon+Luwin, Arya+Jaqen and Kings Landing scenes in general (except Roz+Varis). But seriously, they made a lot of pointless changes.

While the Drogo Scene was pretty touching it is irritating to have all these other visions (that we all were really looking forward to) replaced with mostly meaningless fluff.

I didn't care about the wedding, mostly because I have already given up on Robbs storyline.

Jon fighting Qhorin was way to contrived. If they hadn't completely changed the entire storycontext just to give Ygritte developement she would have had in the third book anyway, this wouldn't have seemed so silly to me.

But the worst part for me was how they just left out Ramseys/the Boltons betrayal. I mean, that was a really important moment. It informed us of the Boltons inherent treachery and gave us an idea of Ramsays cruelty.

I realize that you can't get everything into a 50 Minutes episode, but seriously if they had just cut out Roz and fill in Ramseys betrayal I would have been much happier with this episode.

By the way, where is the Others hatred for everything living? Apparently Sam isn't worth their attention..

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King Joffrey: I will "love" her today until the day I die.

Me: Oh, if you only knew, brothah.

Oh, and JUST as I opened my mouth to each a pile of yogurt n strawberries, a pile of horse poo fell in front of my face, in HD!

Edited by byironnotbygold

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What is it that Danny almost puts her hands on in the HotU Iron Throne scene? They look like leg-bones to me, but they're not shown very clearly. What I've heard suggested is sword hilts, but aren't they kinda big for that?

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2. Sure, they recast Xaro Xohan Daxos as a "bad guy" but come on! Even a "bad guy" won't build the most indestructible safe in the world to protect... absolutely nothing!

they would if they wanted everyone to think they were the big fish in the pond. xaro tells enough of his story for us to understand he was dirt poor and came from nothing but he was successful (a bit) and was able to bluff his way in to qarth society. i think the important part of this is when dany says "thank you for teaching me this lesson." playas gonna play and try to get away with as much as possible. don't believe everything you see or hear. after all, dany's whole arc in essos is learning how to be a good queen so this fits in really well with her story.

Hated, hated, hated hated hated hated the way the Other looked. I almost laughed when it popped up on screen, it looked like some sort of goofy snow ape that belongs in Avatar 2 or something..

i actually hated how the wights looked. i know they're supposed to be the dead come back (and maybe it's because i really HATE that whole plot of asoiaf) but the wights looked super cheesy to me. too much like a b movie zombie. the horse was kinda cool. sort of. if i squint a little. and don't put on my glasses.

the white walker was interesting, imho. i got the impression it looked sort of liked a mummy and made me wonder if the white walkers aren't really the first men who never died. just sleeping through summer and getting older waiting for magic to come back to westeros.

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I suspect there will be some variation of Sam with the dragonglass in the S3 opener, to pick up where he was left off...though I didn't quite get why he was overlooked. However, the undead horse was brilliantly rendered. White Walker was kinda cool, however I wish they'd given it a different-sounding screech. I actually found the rendition of the zombie-esque wights fitting from what I've taken from the books.

Overall, I like this ep. As good as Blackwater? No, but I think it was still a solid ending to a season that has been pretty decent. If you endeavour to see it from the perspective of a TV viewer who has never read the books, it was really well done...and there were enough nuggets thrown to the readers to appease the less nitpicky. As much as we all-knowing readers may gripe, this is still straight-up good telly. Book-to-film/tv adaptations are never 100% true to form, and the writers will inevitably take license with stuff in order to make things run more smoothly in the new medium. It is what it is. We have GRRM's series as our true canon...and I for one enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is: excellent casting, impeccable effects, beautiful detailed set design, stirring music, et cetera, and a chance to see characters in the flesh, even if not exactly true to book form. Imperfect as it is, I'll take it and accept it for good story-telling (even with all the gratuitous bare-chestedness) within the severe limitations of TV format, and not a line-for-line regurgitation of Martin's work. I retain some faith that the writers have reasons for messing with what they do. My advice to those who are enraged by the artistic license which has been taken is simply to try and separate one from the other.

Explaining the various prophecies and faces as they appeared in the book version HotU would have taken too much time away from the other stuff they needed to cover in the episode, and would have ultimately confused the hell out of most of the audience. I was thinking/hoping most of this ep would have been mostly devoted to the Undying, such as Blackwater was mostly devoted to...well, Blackwater...but eh...the writers decided not to, for good reason in retrospect, and as such they still managed to create a suitably creepy atmosphere in the cramped time allowed. Sure, some other scenes could have been cut to allow for more exposition, but whatever.

I actually liked the Drogo scene, particularly because as much as Dany obviously wanted to linger with her dead family, she was drawn back -- somewhat conflictingly -- to reality by the cries of her other children, and the destiny she had chosen for herself. I thought this was a nice subtle touch for many reasons.

It's going to be a long, long wait until S3. I'm just glad I found the books a relatively short time ago so I could read all 5 without years in between them. From what I've garnered, I'll likely have my Doctorate by the time we get #6. -sigh-

So, maybe not that long of a wait in comparison...but I suspect it will be a great season, especially since splitting it into 20 episodes will allow more time for the inclusion of back-story and whathaveyou. ;)

Edited by nearthewoods

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Anyone else saw something from an actor who played Uncle Benjen in that mounted screaming WW with ice sword? Could it be Benjen Stark in his new fine look?

And Esme Bianco boobs are so much more important then Rhaegar and prophecies on which whole ASOIAF saga based... No, really...

Edited by Alboin

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Winterfell: in a previous episode Robb told Roose Bolton to spare the life to the Ironborns, except Theon. So, probably Dagmar & friends received a message from Dreadfort besiegers: give us a defenceless Theon Greyjoy, and we will allow you to come back home safely (and flayed, probably).

After Theon was delivered and the Iroborn left Winterfell, Ramney's men just set Winterfell on fire!

White Walkers: are they supposed to be all similar to the one that killed Waymar Royce in episode 1 of season 1?

Who knows, maybe there are white, of course, and black and yellow walkers too! Or maybe the white walker in s01e01 was black because of the dark in the wood!

I can imagine the White Walkers' forum of Ice and Fire, when in their adaptation of the novel they meet Salladhor Saan or Xaro Xhoan Daxos and are terribly upset and confused because Hey! These humans are not white!

:cheers:

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I can't help but assume that Robb being married in the light of the Seven is a major plot point in the tv show. I'm not sure why but it had to be done for a reason, right? That's really my only nitpick. I liked this episode.

I noticed a lot of people freaking out about Robb married under the seven. (I've read 5 pages, will read the rest later) I think he doesn't take after the old gods, really.

Cat and Ned were married the same way. Ned come to Cat after the rebellion with his "bastard" and Cat already had a baby. I don't remember Robb religious tendencies explained in the books... is stated that Sansa prays to the seven and Bran and Arya "to the old gods and the new", but Robb is never referred (if someone has a quote or something, please share it. I don't have the books with me. Will look up when I can)

The "king in the north" thing happens suddenly to Robb and wasn't his idea but of the other northern families, and nobody would think that the firstborn of the Lord of Winterfell wouldn't have the faith of the old gods... for me, as a believer of the R+L=J theory this add up and have been discussed that Jon have more pedigree to be "the king in the north" -that Ned's sons with Cat-, if his parents were married the wildling way (the abduction points to that).

I think next season will be going deep in the faith of old gods.

Edited by sagaz

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A really good episode to wrap up the season with! Even if it had some wired little details, in the end I liked it a lot!

*The HotU may not have been as epic as in the books, but the visions they showed us were really cool. I love the one in the throne room best I think, and the dragons were so cute <3 I liked the KL’s scenes and the winterfell scenes the best. Such good acting in both (I was crying when luwin died and with that last shot of winterfell burning to the ground) and sansa rocked here! Sophie turner can really act! And then she smiled, and LF had to come and ruin it all, while being creepy and stealing dontos and the hound’s lines again! But aiden gillen’s performance was as good as in the 1st season, I think in this episode.

*Tyrion/shae, arya/jaqen, danny/jorah, pyecelle/tyrion, brienne/Jaime, I loved them all! And even if I don’t like talisa/robb, I liked the secret wedding scene even if robb married under the 7 i guess cause it reminded me of the one from braveheart. to me it looked like the secret arturian weddings or something.

*The only things that bothered me are just how different they’ve changed the relationship between cat and robb. & also 2 small thing swith jon: there was no ghost and I would have liked for him to recite the night watch’s words as he descended the cliff to make it clearer he really isn’t a turncloak.

It’s so sad it’s ended so quickly! L can’t wait for next year already!!!

Edited by Caro99

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Reflections:

It really felt like Blackwater took as much of the season budget as it could and the finale didn't have jack**** too work with (especially since they kinda have to have the dragons, the wights and direwolves in this). Pyat Pree's defeat was just sad. Ramsay and his 500 men being conveyed through a hornblower, House of the Undying was just nothing, Jaqens facechange was really cheap.

I'm sure Ramsay still totally killed the Ironborn and he was the one that burned down Winterfell, I guess they'll keep the Boltons duplicity on the downlown unrtil the Red Wedding, then Season 4 gives us Theon and Ramsay.

I was unhappy about Pycelle's wispy beard , he actually looked stronger without it, but they're gong for a role reversal with Tyrion here, I think he's decded to drop his hunched over facade a little too. It's a departure from the books but I guess it can be more interesting.

Dany's triumphant return to form from her immature behaviour all season was nice, and felt inspired by Drogo, which was also good. You got lemons you make lemonade I guess.

Ros'll be back next season, craaap.

And yeah White Walkers only come out at night. Hence that when they domained it was the Long Night.

Robb's decision too marry Talisa has been confirmed to not be about Jeyne's honour, not even impulsive, not motivated by grief, he just doesn't give a crap. Character assination achieved.

Is Sansa's response to Peter suppose to be more of a her stock "I love Joffrey" lies or a legitimate turning down of a wiser path like the rest? Cause if so WHYYYY???

I also don't know what to make of Shae at this point.

I'm gonna miss Jaqen's actor.

Luwin's death could have used a little more focus on Bran. Osha's increased importance is muscling him out. I don't like it.

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My three main complaints:

1) Rob wouldn't get married by repeating the gods of The Seven!

2) The House of the Undying should have had important prophetic visions. At the very least the one of Rhaegar and Elia. (I did like the ruined Red Keep, however)

3) The scene at the Fist of the First Men should have been of many men preparing for battle (like the whole group we saw at Crasters), and later, survivors running from wights. And, white walkers only come at night! My first thought was that they used up too much of their budget on Blackwater and couldn't pay for more than three characters! That being said, at least allow Sam to kill a wight! He's Sam the Slayer!

I can live with the rest of the changes, but the three I listed bothered me the most.

Edited by Melisandra

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