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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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The only thing I didn't like was the burning of Winterfell. I mean, who burnt it? The Iron born before they surrendered? It was probably very confusing to most non-readers. As far as not showing Roose/Ramsey's betrayal, they're probably saving that for the Red Wedding so that it has more impact. They'll probably have Roose talking Robb into going to the Freys to make amends and they may even have him be the one who plunges the sword into Robbs Heart.

Other wise, I really liked the episode and can't wait until season 3.

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Lotsa hate on this episode. I saw some things that I really enjoyed:

  • The implication of a burned, abandoned Kings Landing if Dany took the throne was intriguing.
    • As often happens, I get distracted by architecture, and didn't notice the skeleton on the ceiling of the Red Keep. Alas.

    [*]The implication that Dany will find happiness and home beyond the Wall was also very, very intriguing

    [*]The betrayals that Melisandre predicts for Stannis are also very intriguing. I immediately thought of the possibility (often suggested here) that he's the ultimate _bad_ guy in the series

    • And his actions at the Red Keep, meant to demonstrate his nobility and courage support this, IMO: the directors make him admirable and awesome, specifically to deceive the viewers into rooting for him

    [*]Ros feeling up Varys seems like it was designed specifically to address some of the conspiracy theories - that Varys is not really a enuch.

Random Observations

  • I was almost hoping that Robb _wouldn't_ marry not-Jeyne - that simply the fact that he slept with her would piss off Frey enough to commit the RW.
  • There's an ongoing motif now (two times!) where someone betrays Dany and she has them killed in cold blood. I hope Xaro won't be showing up again in the books. Awkward!
  • Alfie Allen has to go three years without a screen appearance? Oi.
  • Luwin's death also seems to address some of the theories around him being the Ghost of Winterfell.

Things I didn't like

  • The sacking of Winterfell was lame. Luwin could have spent 15 seconds explaining what happened, but no...
  • The HOTU was not as epic as the original. But I didn't hate it like a lot of people - it was just underwhelming
  • The White Walker staring at Sam was ridiculous, except that it implies a certain level of agency and tactical/strategic smarts. Which is somewhat interesting. It would have been better if someone else had been there, seen the WW, and then was killed, to rise up again on the other side.
  • Jon's fight with QH, etc, marks a significant difference in his story - he is not nearly as noble and pure-of-spirit as book Jon, _BUT_ I think the implication of Jon being a bit more dark means his return to the NW will be more interesting.

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Robb's decision too marry Talisa has been confirmed to not be about Jeyne's honour, not even impulsive, not motivated by grief, he just doesn't give a crap. Character assination achieved.

Is Sansa's response to Peter suppose to be more of a her stock "I love Joffrey" lies or a legitimate turning down of a wiser path like the rest? Cause if so WHYYYY???

I actually like this version better with Robb. In the book, he forsakes a vow because he didn't want to dishonor a lady. Well, that's kind of a contradiction. In the show, he's blinded by love. Which happens in real life to us all.

Also, Sansa doesn't know who to trust. I take most of her responses as being a defense mechanism. She only seems to be herself with Shae.

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I liked the banter between Jaime and Brienne. I thought the beginning in the courtroom was pretty true to the books, except I don't know why Loras didn't become KG and why Margaery was dressed like a hooker. It cracked me up how Theon got whacked in the back of the head during his "moving speech." As a non-book reader I think I would have loved it. Too many deviations have made me not. I wish I could be like others and easily be able to separate them in my mind, but I just can't.

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The implication that Dany will find happiness and home beyond the Wall was also very, very intriguing

If it implied anything, it's that Daeny will die beyond the Wall. That's why he's waiting for her there... Melisandre's speech also pretty much convinced me Stannis is in fact going to become the Night's King. Ugh.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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I thought it was a good season finale.

The House of the Undying was just fine, CGI making a good job again with the dragons.

Arya again was one of the best scenes.

Cried with Tyrion.

Don't know if Sansa is naive or just stupid.

And wow! really enjoyed the cast of walking dead poping out the snow.

addendum: Oh, and loved how they kept Doreah alive this much just to turn her into a pointless cunt

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As a whole, I was really underwhelmed by the episode. As for the individual story arcs, I understand why some changes were made. But it still doesn't mean I like them.

To be more specific:

1.The House of the Undying scene was terrible. Obviously, as a book reader, I was disappointed with the lack of visions. But, I understand that the T.V audience wouldn't make sense of it. Still, I thought the scene was weak overall. They could have adapted it better. I thought her scene with Khal Drogo and her son wasn't necessary. The 'Dracarys' moment was weak too

2. Is it just me or was Jon and QH's scene not obvious enough - and by this I mean that their scene played out as if Jon killed QH as an accident in the midst of his rage. I'm just thinking for the non readers it may not be clear. What do you guys think?

3. I thought the Throne room scene was alright. Cersei and Joffery were well done in that scene, same with Sansa, Littlefinger and Margaery.

4. Theon in Winterfell was good. BUT, I really hope that wasn't Ramsay... it just would not make sense...so let's hope there is an explanation for all of that. My guess is that Dagmar (is that his name?) was corresponding with Ramsay and was instructed take over Theon's men and open the gates of Winterfell for the Bastard's arrival

5. Luwin's death scene was truly sad.

6. The attack of the wights/Others was how I imagined it would be (but I imagine that the non readers will say that HBO is copying The Walking Dead or something), but I think they failed to capture appearance, fierceness and overall scariness (for lack of a better word) of the Others.

7. Tyrion and Shae: non readers are going to shit themselves when she betrays him! I can't wait

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I'm really unhappy about the fact that Bran really doesn't have a reason to avoid Northern villages now. Their isolation is gonna be so contrived.

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2. Is it just me or was Jon and QH's scene not obvious enough - and by this I mean that their scene played out as if Jon killed QH as an accident in the midst of his rage. I'm just thinking for the non readers it may not be clear. What do you guys think?

I think they didn't have enough money to bring Ghost to the scene :eek:

Truthfully, though, I think it's complicated to bring that to the show, because in the book we know what Jon was thinking and feeling, but how can you translate that to the screen? Not to mention that Kit Harrington is far from the best actor in the cast, but I still think they managed to show well enough Jon's confusion and reluctance in all that.

I agree with all your other points. Also, I think it was inevitable that this episode would be so underwhelming. If the Blackwater had never happened, we might have liked it, bu as things stand anything that came after that would be a bit frustrating.

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Loved the episode. Totally blown away. So well acted and I was totally surprised by the three-blasts scene. I even didn't mind the scene with Ros.

To all the h8rs due to the clipped HotU scenes - do you not realize how difficult it would be to convey all those visions to the non-book reading viewers and how much of the episode would be needed to do so? Come on. The Rheagar scene with the harp would be cool but so out of place for the show. It would be costly due to casting and would not add anything to the show-story. Non of the non-book reading viewers know what Rheager looks like nor his true import to the story.

It's really too bad you're all so hung up on this shit that you can't even enjoy the show at all. Please stop watching, you're only causing yourselves pain. :P

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I'm really unhappy about the fact that Bran really doesn't have a reason to avoid Northern villages now.

Why not?

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IMO they should not have even bothered to cast the Reeds next season. I feel like they have bowed too much to fan pressure when they need to focus on tightening existing storylines and adapting for tv better.

It is possible that they ended up casting the Reeds so they didn't have to tell the actor who plays Bran to go practice his wolf whispering for a couple years. They have already said that they can't do ASoS in one season and Bran really only has two main scenes in the book: saving Jon from the wildlings near queen Alysanne's castle and taking a walk under the Wall with Sam at the very end. Without the Reeds, Bran might not have been on screen very much for the next couple years.

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The visions confused us as well when we first saw them. That's why they're visions. Gives people stuff to think about. Like, what the hell was that?! This 'the tv audience is too dumb to think and doesn't want to think and should have everything spoon-fed to them' attitude isn't really an argument to me. Even if it were so it doesn't change the fact it won't help the quality of your show if you follow that 'rule'.

Why not?

Because the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The Northmen were supposed to come and rescue them, they didn't find out this 500 men army were actually their enemies, yet they resolve to flee all the way to the Wall rather than go 'hey, weren't our allies outside here just a minute ago? Why not find them?' That's some terrible terrible plotdamage.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Melisandre's speech also pretty much convinced me Stannis is in fact going to become the Night's King. Ugh.

Whoa, I hadn't really thought about that happening. Seems like it could be a real possibility though, the no-heat sword, a sorceress hoochie, reclaiming the night fort, I'll have to start looking for more clues as I re-read. Nice catch, this could be intruiging.

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If I still have not read the books, I would have said it was awesome.

Alas, I finished the last one two weeks ago, so.. by the book's standarts this one is pretty bad.

1) Sacking of Winterfell - done way better in book. Not to mention the whole plot, which included Ramsay, a Stark's bannerman (I forgot his name) etc. Of course the Teon's speech was cool. And the way it ended, lol. But.. they didn't even show us Ramsay and his men with tourches or something!

2) House of undying - even worse. Those shitty scenes with Drago and a warlock is nothing compared to Deny's visions. Also, where the hell is prophecy about 3 treasons, and 3 fires, and 3 mounts? Nowhere!

3) White Walkers and Others... at least it looked cool, But... no fight on the Fist with Sam writing those letters while everyone else fights for their lives? No undead bear? No Sam going through snow and blizzard or charging at Other with dagger, etc?! Hell it was cool stuff to read, it would be AWESOME to see... But, instead we get another Nazgul, a snow version. Gee, thanks....

4)Arya and Jagen... no soup, no visible trick of face change, nothing, sucks.

4) Jon Snow's capture and his dealing with Halfhand were better done in the book. Hell,in the show he doesn't even declare himself a traitor BEFORE fighting Halfhand! So the entire act of freeing him after Halfhand's death shows 1 thing - Wilderling are idiots.

5) Robb Stark sudden marriage in books had at least some sense. Here - not so much.

6) And brother and sister Reeds apparently don't exist. Also Bran and Rikon going one way is wrong.

My disappointment in writers knows no limits. Sure you cannot make show 100% true to book, but they have gone too far..

Edited by Gelious

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I don't know why Loras didn't become KG and why Margaery was dressed like a hooker.

I didn't even notice that! :o

(I guess I was too busy looking at Margaery in her hooker costume... :leer: )

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I feel yea on the last scene with the Other man. Totally lame. I mean, the white walker on the horse looked cool but he just stared at Sam, and then moved on...stupid. Sam would have been dead right then and there. The wights with the white walkers just looked like something out of The Walking Dead. Also, you are right, the White Walkers only come at night. Mance Rayder says so in ASOS.

I don't remember anything about the Others only coming out when it's dark. What they do mention is that they only seemt to come out when its super cold, but whether the cold brings them or vice versa is not known.

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If I still have not read the books, I would have said it was awesome.

Alas, I finished the last one two weeks ago, so.. by the book's standarts this one is pretty bad.

1) Sacking of Winterfell - done way better in book. Not to mention the whole plot, which included Ramsay, a Stark's bannerman (I forgot his name) etc. Of course the Teon's speech was cool. And the way it ended, lol. But.. they didn't even show us Ramsay and his men with tourches or something!

2) House of undying - even worse. Those shitty scenes with Drago and a warlock is nothing compared to Deny's visions. Also, where the hell is prophecy about 3 treasons, and 3 fires, and 3 mounts? Nowhere!

3) White Walkers and Others... at least it looked cool, But... no fight on the Fist with Sam writing those letters while everyone else fights for his life? No undead bear? No Sam going through snow and blizzard or charging at Other with dagger, etc?! Hell it was cool stuff to read, it would be AWESOME to see... But, instead we get another Nazgul, a snow version. Gee, thanks....

4)Arya and Jagen... no soup, no visible trick of face change, nothing, sucks.

4) Jon Snow's capture and his dealing with Halfhand were better done in the book. Hell,in the show he doesn't even declare himself a traitor BEFORE fighting Halfhand! So the entire act of freeing him after Halfhand's death shows 1 thing - Wilderling are idiots.

5) Robb Stark sudden marriage in books had at least some sense. Here - not so much.

6) And brother and sister Reeds apparently doesn't exist. Also Bran and Rikon going one way is wrong.

My disappointment in writers knows no limits. Sure you cannot make show 100% true to book, but they have gone too far..

Jojen and Meera Reed will be in the next season, although I'm not sure whether they will end up separating Bran and Rickon. The one issue is that the showrunners have established Osha's character pretty well so they may not want to see her gone for a long while.

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Whoa, I hadn't really thought about that happening. Seems like it could be a real possibility though, the no-heat sword, a sorceress hoochie, reclaiming the night fort, I'll have to start looking for more clues as I re-read. Nice catch, this could be intruiging.

It's not really my theory, but a well-fleshed out theory from someone else on this board which I've read. Melisandre's speech about Stannis betraying anyone at all was so out of character for him that I wrote it off as nonsense at first but when you put the pieces together... what else could she mean? As long as he's human Stannis is in no real position to betray anyone because he needs all the support he can get. He'll probably either fall in battle against the Others or someone else, be resurrected as a more powerful sort of Wight through the power of his blood (he is after all the King and blood magic is the most powerful magic there is, especially when using King's blood...) or get wounded, go insane because of the wound and run over to the Others somehow as a last resort of some kind. *sigh* Personally I'd be gutted over this (Stannis deserves a genuinely good ending if only for all the stuff poor ol' Davos has been through for his sake to start with) but I see no real other way out, especially because Daeny dying behind the Wall (presumably fighting Stannis, ack, they should join forces instead!) has also been implied in this episode, and who would she be fighting beyond the Wall... you guessed it. Then there's George saying the ending will be 'bittersweet' and 'victory will come at a price'... well... Can't get much clearer than that.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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I think the first half of the episode was pretty good. I really liked Arya part and changing the faces worked well for me :).

Dany in the house of undying was all good until the part where dragons started burning that man. This felt very rushed and it felt as if the man was just a common human and died somehow too fast and easily. For a place like this which is guarded with spells/sorcery this just seemed too easy. I wish they had made it more dramatic. Dany in throne room was beautiful though.

I feel bad that Robb was made to look so weak in this show. In books he seems to be more heroic...even if he's deciding not to marry the Frey girl.

Jon didn't seem shocked enough after killing Halfhand. Ygritte just tells him..lets go... and I get the impression as if he's saying. "Ok! yep.. lets go!"

The others were pretty interesting.. I actually started laughing when I saw one guy with just half a scull. Im not sure yet what to think of them. I pictured them differently...

All in all it was quite good episode but most parts should have been more dramatic and darker!

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