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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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Jojen and Meera Reed will be in the next season, although I'm not sure whether they will end up separating Bran and Rickon. The one issue is that the showrunners have established Osha's character pretty well so they may not want to see her gone for a long while.

Im kinda hoping we get to see what happens when Osha and Rickon head into the wilderness (I wanna say they were going to white harbor or skagos, cant remember). Havent heard anything about them aftre they split up in the books as afar as I can recall, would be cool to see their wacky adventures. And it would give the show runners a chance to keep one of their favorite characters around.

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I wished they showed the sack of Winterfell. I'm assuming the Ironborn who betrayed Theon died during the sack, but it would have been nice to see. I suppose it's a possibility they got away somehow.

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There are some parts of this episode that I really love (like all things Winterfell, Jaquen, Jaime and Brienne...), but some parts were just a bit disappointing...

  • Qhorin vs Jon Snow: I don't think it was quite as intense as in the books. I hope people who don't read the books understood what was happening, but frankly, I was a bit confused for a second myself...

  • House of the Undying: while I really liked the visions that they showed, I would have killed for a blue rose on the wall. I know it would make no sense in the show, but wouldn't that also be sort of great? I mean, it is the House of the Undying, things are supposed to be weird. Also, they could always add a reference to Lyanna and blue roses later on in the series if it is necessary. But what really irks me is... where are the Undying? To me they needn't even show them, but Dany could have heard their whispers as she's running around looking for her dragons (that way we would have gotten some prophecies as well). I think that would have been quite a bit creepier than just Mr. I-love-to-show-off-by-cloning-myself...

  • Varys and Ros: I just don't get it...?

And, finally, there was the one moment when I just wanted to throw stuff at the screen. Big and heavy stuff, like maybe a brick...or a dinosaur...

  • Robb, the Brat King of the North: I really like Robb in the books. In fact I'm constantly making excuses for him, which is easy in the books (he's very young, his best friend betrayed him, he's alone, he's wounded, the Westerlings totally manipulated him, he thinks his brothers are dead...). In the show he's older, he's not alone, nor is he wounded, and he has absolutely no idea about his brothers being supposedly dead. He just promptly walks up to his mother and says: "But moooom, i don't want a boring marriage like you and dad! It's probably even because of your boring marriage that he's dead now. I don't care about the Freys, they are smelly and I don't like them anyway...Also, you freed Jaime Lannister, so now you don't get to tell me what to do!" :shocked:

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I loved this episode. So Robb got married by the Seven, It's the first time they've actually said all the names on the show, so they worked in some exposition there. Get over it. The CGI was great. They couldn't have screwed up Qhorin/Jon, because even Larry Williams understood what was going on and Larry is pretty dense.

Dany's trip to the HOTU.. people are so busy whining about what wasn't there they completely miss what was there. Was that ash or snow falling on the iron throne? Or should I say was that (Jon) Snow on the iron throne? Just to make it more obvious for you. Dany also had to turn away from the iron throne. And Drogo being there was really great. That stuff was a lot more important than "You must always take the first right" and other random stuff.

The only things that bothered me were they continue to fuck up Littlefinger and his story in every way possible, and they refuse to take any opportunity to write Ros out of the show.

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I was expecting somewhat more from the season finale. Especially from the house of undying scenes. Daenerys was supposed to have different visions, see things that meant something. In the episode, Dany's visions don't give us any clue about her future or whatsoever... plus Rhaegar was missing too. I didn't expect them to show all of them. I understand there are choices to be made when making a book out of a movie, but they missed and changed everything! What about the blue rose growing from the wall? They could have at least put that...

Then there is 'The Others' matter... I didn't quite like the cgi there. They didn't feel real...

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If it implied anything, it's that Daeny will die beyond the Wall. That's why he's waiting for her there... Melisandre's speech also pretty much convinced me Stannis is in fact going to become the Night's King. Ugh.

It implied that Dany's husband will be beyond the wall. This is known.

The first vision seems to suggest that, when Dany reaches the Red Keep, the Long Night will have already reached King's Landing.

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The visions confused us as well when we first saw them. That's why they're visions. Gives people stuff to think about. Like, what the hell was that?! This 'the tv audience is too dumb to think and doesn't want to think and should have everything spoon-fed to them' attitude isn't really an argument to me. Even if it were so it doesn't change the fact it won't help the quality of your show if you follow that 'rule'.

Because the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The Northmen were supposed to come and rescue them, they didn't find out this 500 men army were actually their enemies, yet they resolve to flee all the way to the Wall rather than go 'hey, weren't our allies outside here just a minute ago? Why not find them?' That's some terrible terrible plotdamage.

Then why wouldn't Luwin have told them to join those supposed allies rather than flee to the Wall?

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I knew it! I knew it all along. Sam is a servant of the Great Other. His physical appearance doesn't change, he's been marching and living on a glacier for weeks but he's still fat. He's the only one to escape Crasters Keep later, He delivers Bran to Coldhands, and he's infiltrating Old Town.

Now the White Walker just gives him a look and keeps going, OF COURSE, they're on the same side! I knew it.

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I don't get some of the Osha hate, calling her a slut is a bit over the top, she did what she did so she get those kids to safety, not for nothing but through out history during wars women had been raped for some guy's whim or ego and they also had to just give themselves to protect their family, Osha did no more than keeping her promise to the Starks for spareing her life.

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Speaking of faster does anyone think that the show will eventually catch up to or pass the books? Was thinking that because of the expidited feeling i get when watching

If it does, I bet in the fine print of the contract GRRM signed it says that he becomes HBO's bitch. :)

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Then why wouldn't Luwin have told them to join those supposed allies rather than flee to the Wall?

That's exactly my point. That's the question an attentive viewer would be asking. Now the characters just assume they'll have to go to the Wall as Luwin suggests instead of wondering why he says they're still in danger and can't for instance go to one of their closer allies.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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This was the worst episode of the series. Bar none.

The cliffhanger with the wights and white walkers was dreadful. A complete of lack of threat, menace, or tension. Just compare it to the introduction of the White Walker in the pilot. This was laughable.

Other than the Throne sequence, the House of Undying had a complete lack of imagination. There was a thousand different ways they could have approached this. Something sinister, something weird (ala the Black Lodge from Twin Peaks), something heartbreaking. Many of them low cost, but this failed at every level. No mystery. Pointless. Really failing to leverage the huge bag of tricks available in a visual medium.

What did we get? A tent, a baby with a bad wig, and Jason Momoa.

And time isn't an excuse, Danny had nothing to do all freaking season - this should have a 10-15 minute - what the fuck type of moment.

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I liked it overall. But I am curious what Varys wants with Ros. Also, as far as the wedding, it bothered me that they were married by a septon, but I think that having them say the vows sets up the general guidelines for weddings, and so next season, with the first wedding, Tyrion and Sansa, the viewer will be familiar with the vows and will see the contrast between happy wedding, Robb and Talisa and sad wedding, Tyrion and Sansa.

Anyone else see the treatment of Doreah and Shae as a bit of foreshadowing? I think that Shae is going to end up in Cersei's service, maybe she is already. After all, a lot had changed since Tyrion got wounded, as he finds out. Her plea to run to Pentos could be an attempt to also get herself out of spying on him. With Doreah, we see that she was pushed to help Xaro because she thought that Dany was doomed. She is a whore trying to survive, much like Shae. We also saw the consequences of that. Death.

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An excellent episode, among the three or four best of the series so far IMHO. Some scenes were less well done than they could easily have been (Jon/Quorin, WW takes no notice of Sam ...WTF?), but overall much better than expected. They managed to wrap up quite a few storylines very well while leaving great cliffhangers even for bookreaders with other lines.

House of the Undying ... they did what they could regarding time and budget, I´ll give them that. No complaints here.

Jeez you can tell things are getting bad when even I as a book purist am getting annoyed with the whining from even worse book purists.

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It implied that Dany's husband will be beyond the wall. This is known.

The first vision seems to suggest that, when Dany reaches the Red Keep, the Long Night will have already reached King's Landing.

I like this explanation. I am sure GRRM had some input on what needed to be shown in the HotU, and he probably wanted to spice things up and create new visions to show to the fans. Perhaps he was trying to tell us something about the ending of the story, in a vague and uncertain way. Those scenes could be taken multiple ways.

Dany is going to first burn kings landing with her unruly dragons?

Dany will then head to the Wall and die defeating the Great Other?

Dany will reunite with Drogo when she dies?

Dany will meet Jon and Jon will become her new Khal Drogo?

The Starks will rule the seven kingdoms?

Jon will take over the Iron Throne?

The Iron Throne is all Dany wants, but perhaps she will never get it?

and so on...

Maybe the leaving out of Rhaegar and Elia was GRRM's way of trying to finally put an end to the R+L=J theory.

Edited by Qwop22

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I really can't decide how I feel about the HotU sequence.

On one hand, they left out some stuff (ok, actually, most of the stuff) from the book that I would have really liked to see. RW and Rhaegar in particular.

But at the same time I find it hard to be disappointed, because there was absolutely nothing in that sequence that I thought was bad. I liked those visions. I can't say they should have replaced anything that was in the episode with one of the above mentioned scenes, because I actually did like everything about it, except for the omissions.

And it's hard to say that it was cost-related, because the shots they did use were pretty heavy on the CGI. The RW scene, OTOH, would probably just be prop-focused, without a ton of CGI.

Edited by Warhawk137

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Really loved the Daenerys arc this episode. Even though the House of the undying wasnt what it was in the books it was great! Got chills when Dany walked into the throne room and then out on the wall and it was fantastic to see Momoa again :) And also dracarys was great.

The ending was awesome! and i finally got a look for the others. Had a hard time picturing them in my head.

Aryas scene with Jaqen was cool too. Vala Morghulis.

Kings Landing was great. Tywins horse pooped, yey! and Tyrions scar was terrific!

I didnt really like the sacking of Winterfell though. It didn't have the same impact on me at all as it had in the books. And to not introduce reek/ramsay this season was a big mistake in my opinion, made it a lot more confusing.

And Jons storyline is the worst as usual. Did HBo even try to make it look like Jon acted on qhorins orders. Is he one of the wilidling now or still their prisoner. Very unclear. and no ghost :(

overall a great episode and a worthy ending to the season

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Sorry if already discussed, just getting to the thread -

Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else get the sense the HoTU throne room scene wasn't snow, it was ashes? I may need to rewatch it, but to me I thought, hmm ashes, maybe she razed Kings Landing?

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I just want to complain that the series is too short. The show is so cramped with info and they don't have time to deal properly with all the storylines. It is hard to keep track of who is who for a non-reader. Hope they are not going to do this for season 3. Book 3 is a long book and it needs 20 episodes, maybe split into season 3 and season 4.

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It implied that Dany's husband will be beyond the wall. This is known.

He'll be there... But alive and as another person than Drogo, or as Drogo in the afterlife?

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