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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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The only gripe I really had with the HotU wasn't the lack of visions (glad the RW wasn't there tbh, too obvious already), I actually liked the Khal Drogo scene and iron throne, but would it have hurt to have the "three treasons you will know" prophecy? Unless they are saving this prophecy for Quaithe to give to Dany later (which will be really good for establishing Quaithe as this omnipresent, prophesying figure for Dany.

Also considering how blatantly obvious they're making the Frey's betrayal of Robb will be, I'm surprisedthey chose to make Roose/Ramsay's betrayal not as obvious as it should have been - not too mention how stupidly subtle Qhorin's plot to fight Jon was in the program. I mean, non-book readers actually had to try and make sense of the fight scene when it was happening, figuring out whether it was planned or not, that should not have been a concern at all at that point. Although the fight was fairly emotional as well up to that point. IMO would've been nice to have had Qhorin tell Jon to do whatever they ask of him in time to come rather than say "we are the watchers on the wall", would've been good for establishing inner conflict for Jon next series. No gripes though, I loved his last words. :)

Robb getting married under the seven, not a big deal imo (considering Robb's plot will be over in a few episodes lol) but also b/c non-book readers pretty much know all they need to about the old gods at this point (nothing really), but they don't know anything about the religion of the Seven which is more complicated and has a larger role to play in time (High Septon later).

Honestly, I agree with someone earlier that Stannis' character is just all over the place in the scenes he's been in, what the hell? Totally disappointed they seem to make him some sort of bad guy when really, he's by far the best candidate for the Iron Throne inc. Dany at this point (not too mention the only one save Dany with an actual claim to the damn thing by blood). They have failed to make his cause a righteous one to claim what is rightfully his and is being denied him. Plus more elaboration on him believing he's the PwwP/AA reborn wouldn't hurt imo.

Also, with regards to LF and sansa, I liked that part. TBH we know nothing will come of that for a while b/c she marries Tyrion, but it helps build the relationship between LF and sansa that will arise later (If they just show LF taking an interest in Sansa for 2 episodes before helping her escape it'll be too weird, they have to establish that the strange strange fascination LF has with Sansa stems from his love for Catelyn).

I like what they did with Shae as well (trying to convince him to run away, tyrion weeping), it'll make what she does later on that much more awful and emotional hopefully.

All in all, a very good episode, would have been phenomenally better with just a few cost-free, easy, and small changes to make it stay true to the story (Robb/Cat thinking Bran/Rickon are dead and it's their fault is the biggest example for instance.

i think that is why most people are upset, they didn't spend millions of dollars on blackwater and mess up, they didn't cast completely incompetent actors or anything like that, they just made a series of unfortunately small, unnecessary changes that added up make the plot suffer tremendously.

Edited by Ciglon

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The acting, cinemetography, costuming and editing were great.

The adaption left much to be desired.

Jaqen & Arya were spot on. The change of face was beautiful!

Brienne &Jaime were fine - when I heard the voices walking towards them I thought "Mummers!".

HotU - I get what they did, I like what they did, but with the expectations of a season end, they missed out on some things. Yes, there would be spoilers in some of the scenes...but that wasn't a problem in the book, so why not here? Not even all of them. I think they had a great opportunity and it came up short.

Dany/Dragons - so in a few days the dragons go from being able to barely burn a piece of meat to being flamethrowers. And - I've only seen it once so far - but Dany is impervious to dragon fire?

Robb/Mom/Marriage - So Robb knowlingly and intentionally breaks his word to the Freys, not out of a gut response, but after thought and conversation. So he's just a selfish child.

Jon/Quorin - fight was fine. But now Jon is just a turncloak, which reinforces his running, rather than seeing Dalbridge give his life for his brothers, get the instruction from Halfhand - not want to do it - and get forced into fighting him. Oh, and didn't he have a dog or something as a pet once?

Winterfell - so either Dagmer is Dagmer and has an agreement with Bolton or Dagmer is the bastard...or...just got bored and wanted to go home?

Throne room - loved the touch of the horse dropping a pile. Loved Sansa's look when she was walking away. What is LF thinking?

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A bit disappointed, since I was hoping for a bit more in the finale. The episode felt a bit uneven and slightly anticlimactic compared to Blackwater (which was one of the best -- if not the best -- episodes this season). But overall I found the episode to be entertaining, just not as engrossing as I'd hoped for.

Good:

  • Arya and Jaqen. I'm glad they had one last scene together, and Jaqen giving Arya the coin is quite significant, so I'm glad they included it. The scene also makes it clear that Arya won't travel to Bravoos immediately, so we'll get to see her 'road show' with The Hound next season (as I'd hoped for).
  • Jaime and Brienne. Very close to how I envisioned the characters in the book. Looking forward to more scenes with these two in season 3.
  • Luwin's 'farewell' scene. Sumpter did a great job as Luwin. A memorable part, despite having only a few scenes in season 2.
  • House of the Undying: The dragon fire was cool, but I wish the dragons were flying around when they put the guy on fire. I don't remember the details from the book, but the sequence was interesting, although not as exciting as it could've been.
  • The whitewalkers. I don't remember how they looked like in the books, but I think the rider and his undead horse looked rather cool.

Bad:

  • The scenes with Jon Snow was a bit confusing and didn't have the same impact as in the books. I like Jon as a character, but his plotline this season hasn't been that interesting, unfortunately.
  • Robb's marriage: His choices this season hasn't been entirely convincing. I think the show should've provided better reasons for him to abandon his marriage to the Frey girl.
  • The tone was a bit too low-key, especially for a season finale. The last scene with the whitewalkers did help a bit, but compared to the finale in season one, it didn't have the same impact.

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Why not?

Cause he has no idea that it was anyone but Ironborn that are his enemies. It's not even certain that he knew that the castle was under siege by Northern and even if he did, he has every reason to believe that the Ironborn were just saved by other Ironborm arriving, like Theon was hoping for all this time. He has no reason to sit in the cold and starve to avoid Northern villages because no one is looking for him and he has no reason to fear northern like in the books.. Moreover, in the books they stayed away to keep up the pretence that Bran is dead, as he safer that way. But the idea that he's dead STILL hasn't spread and he's already on the road.

And yet, I'm sure he'll still stay hidden for new reasons. I hope they'll be good ones.

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HoU scene didn't bother me since I know they're making major changes to the story anyway. I suspect book loyalists will completely tune out the show next season.

Littlefinger approaching Sansa at the end. So I guess Dontos will be written out of the show? He serves no point now that Sansa knows Littlefinger's intentions. I guess they could show him helping her escape next season, but it would be really jarring to non-book readers who probably wouldn't remember him.

I like the namedropping of Wex, it's too bad he's not a real character on the show so he'll never actually appear. He was Dareon'd.

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Robs story is terrible on the show!

WHY IS HER NAME TALISA AGAIN???

his story was better implied like in the books. he gets wounded, Jeyne helps tend to the wound, they sleep together, fall in love, get married. THE END!

I understand you wanted to give him more screen time....maybe introduce Roose Bolton.....ok I get it. Now I'm not a complete book purist...but c'mon!! you made Jeyne from one of the free cities. Hell she isn't even Jeyne Westerling! And he contradicts himself saying to Catelyn (in a earlier episode) that the war isn't just about getting Sansa and Ayra back, its about more then that..........But now you don't seem to be warring at all. You seem to only give a shit about "Talisa"....I cannot wait for the Red Wedding! Rant over.

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I'm guessing this is going to be a plot point and the girl really is Jeyne. They'll use it as more motivation for the Northern lords to betray Robb. He went back on his oath, married a Lannister and did it in light of the seven.

Maybe Robb already knows she is Jeyne Westerling and still marries her. That would be a real twist and really piss off his bannermen. I can't get over the "Talissa is Jeyne" theory. It seems like too good of a story to pass up and why mention the Crag and that the Westerlings live there?(info on HBO.com) They could have made up a castle or said the golden tooth or something.

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I wasn't really bothered by the WW seeing Sam and not reacting-- I think it illustrates that a) the Walkers are intelligent to some extent and b ) Sam appears so cowardly and harmless that the WW didn't even think he was worth the trouble (and perhaps he just figured one of his wight minions would make quick work of Sam)

Needless to say, that's gotta be the White Walker that Sam slays.

Edited by BrojenReed

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First post and I'm going to get shot... oh well.

HOTU - my non reader friend and I were equally perpelxed as to the point, apart from Jason Momoa of course...

Apparently Jon and the Halfand did have some kind of 'understanding', however we both missed that too :( Clearly I'm a moron because I noticed things from previous episodes for the first time in the 'last episode' bit.

friend: is that a white walker?

me: I guess so, they just look different now...

friend: horns?

me: uggh remeber how how Lord Bolton sent his bastard to retake winterfell?

No.

the guy that I told you likes to flay people.

Yeah cool

they're the horn blowers who are here to save winterfell.

Why is Winterfell burned?

Yeaaah, I guess they skipped that part... basically Ramsay Snow's an asshole.

Who the fuck is Ramsay Snow and why did he burn down Winterfell?

Nevermind.

Robb is a complete idiot and I hope he dies.

Yeah the next season will be awesome. You should read the books...

Fuck the books, there's TV!

:(

Sam: I'll just hide behind this rock.

White walker: he's behind a rock. immortal force field engaged. ignore target.

and before I get killed, My fave characters are Arya, Sandor and Jaime, in no particular order. I effin love show Arya and Jaime, just think Sandor has been utterly destroyed.

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Where the hell is Ghost?! I was really looking forward to seeing Tywin's horse shit in the throne room, but at least they included it..unlike Renly's damn peach. and... where the hell is Ghost? oh, and how is Sam going to get out of THAT predicament? I'm not even going to begin to discuss the major plot changes or the butchering of the HOTU, I can't even stomach it. I guess we should all try and think of it as something to kill the time until the next book is released/written.

I felt they needed a little more presence from Ghost even if the Jon/Qhorin predicament played out much differently. I would have liked to see Jon have the warg dream and discover the Wildling army before actually seeing it with his own eyes at the end. I know, it's too much nitpicking. Overall, I though, I felt this episode was one of the stronger ones of the 2nd season.

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Honestly, I agree with someone earlier that Stannis' character is just all over the place in the scenes he's been in, what the hell? Totally disappointed they seem to make him some sort of bad guy when really, he's by far the best candidate for the Iron Throne inc. Dany at this point (not too mention the only one save Dany with an actual claim to the damn thing by blood). They have failed to make his cause a righteous one to claim what is rightfully his and is being denied him. Plus more elaboration on him believing he's the PwwP/AA reborn wouldn't hurt imo.

Stannis didn't really believe that he is AA reborn at this point in the books yet...if he even believes it now. He believed in Mel's results, not her god or her prophecy. He becomes more swayed as time goes on, but not this early.

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Dany/Dragons - so in a few days the dragons go from being able to barely burn a piece of meat to being flamethrowers. And - I've only seen it once so far - but Dany is impervious to dragon fire?

IIRC, in ADWD she is burned by Drogon in the fighting pit.

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Some thoughts on the season two finale:

  • Poor Tyrion, waking up in front of a gloating Pycelle, and not getting any recognition for what he did.
  • His injuries aren't - predictably - as disfiguring as in the books. Would be hell to do that kind of make-up from now on.
  • This is the first time I've actually sensed some kind of chemistry between Tyrion and Shae. Not much, mind you...
  • Tywin is magnificent in his contempt, letting his horse take a shit just before riding into the throne room.
  • For not having that big of a chest, Natalie Dormer does spectacularly with Margaery's cleavage, even if it does look rather out of place for a Westeros highborn lady.
  • Nice to see Sansa smiling at the knowledge that she now doesn't have to marry Joffrey, but poor girl just then learns from Littefinger that that doesn't mean she can go home, or is even out of danger. Quite the contrary. Silly girl, why didn't you escape with the Hound?
  • Littlefinger stole Sandor's line about all being liars. Why do they give so many of the Hound's lines to Littlefinger?
  • Sophie Turner must have grown quite a bit. It looks like she's taller than Aidan Gillen.
  • More scenes from book 3 with Brienne and Jaime. Of course there would otherwise be little for NCW to do this season.
  • Their bantering was fun, and you could tell that he was impressed by her fighting skills. And to be honest, the actress isn't nearly as ugly as her character is made to be in the books.
  • While an unwise move, I liked the fact that Robb scolded his mother about she's not the one to be reckless, when he married Talisa (who I'm now convinced really isn't Jeyne Westerling.
  • I liked that Stannis was assertive, if a bit abusive, towards Melisandre. he's not to be played and doesn't really believe that much in the Lord of Light. Although after watching through those flames I wonder...
  • I almost feel sorry for Theon. He had a great speech, and I really thought they would all follow him to meet the besiegers. Then I laughed so hard when Dagmer just whacked him!
  • The line "Let's go home" from Dagmer lends me to believe that he isn't Reek/Ramsay as some crackpot theories have suggested. They've ditched Reek altogether and have Dagmer making a deal with the besiegers (presumably Ramsay Bolton and his men).
  • Winterfell doesn't seem that sacked when the Stark kids emerge, but it is sure smoking a lot from it when viewed from a distance. So how much was actually destroyed? From the books I got the distinct impression that everything except the stone had burned.
  • For that matter, who burned Winterfell? To the viewer it's not immediately clear. It could presumably have been the retreating Ironborn, even though we know it was the Bastard of Bolton. Thus the treachery of the Boltons aren't that apparent yet.
  • I think Isaac Hempstead-Wright has grown. Poor Hodor won't be able to carry him around for much longer.
  • This is a problem for the show - the kid actors growing up faster than their characters in the books. What if Maise Williams has a sudden growth spurt and won't be able to pass for a little boy any more?
  • Even the kid playing little Rickon was good.
  • Considering the episode title - Valar Morghulis - I wasn't surprised that Arya got her coin from Jaqen. She still hasn't retrieved Needle. I don't remember if she's supposed to already according to the books, but didn't she kill that Harrenhal guard with it? Not that she got to do that on HBO, alas.
  • Finally we had Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand. I suppose they dragged this storyline on for a couple of episodes just because he wouldn't have that much to do this season either.
  • Not actually seeing Ramsay Bolton or Mance Ryder (or the Reeds and Tullys for that matter) saves them in not having to pay the actor salaries.
  • Predictably the House of the Undying didn't reveal much compared to the books. Doing so would have spoiled too much. Not even the prophesies. But we got a nice scene with Dany and imaginary Khal Drogo (and son). I don't recall that in the book, but maybe the ruins of the Red Keep and throne room, is an intentional foreshadowing? Dany will take King's Landing but there won't be much left when she does?
  • Cool burning of Pyat Pree by the dragons though. And man they are cute!
  • I wasn't at all surprised that Xaro's vault was empty. That's why he wanted the dragons. Fitting end for him to be locked up inside it, but I grieve for Doreah. I really don't get why she betrayed Dany! Was it just that simple that she didn't want to wander around with her Khaleesi any more, trying to reclaim a realm on the other side of the world?
  • The White Walker army was creepy, but I don't recall them forming up so in the books.
  • I was expecting Sam to use the dragon glass, but for some odd reason the White Walker rider just stared at him and didn't seem inclined to kill him.
  • Nice ending for the season though.
  • And damn, almost a year until next time!
  • Generally, the first season was better. It had a more held together storyline, whereas this one had lots of rather isolated events all over. But the same can be said for the books. Still, there were more weaker episodes and storylines this season. For some characters nothing much happened and they sometimes had to accelerate events (Jaime) or invent ones (Dany).

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I had tried to make a separate thread on this earlier, but wasn't able to because of the forums acting up. Thanks for pointing that out about the weirwood. But in the absence of their own gods, they swear to someone else's?

I'm not very familiar with the religions in ASOAIF books, but this would've been the case in Europe before Christianity. People would pray to the god or gods they'd deem fit or useful depending on situation and locationg. It wasn't like today when a Christian is a Christian no matter where he is and him praying to other gods would be a deadly sin. Japan is actually still good example where people can marry in shinto temple and be buried according to Buddhist rituals while reading Konfutse during their lives and attending Christian seremonies.

So if Westeros is like "pagan Europe" in religious sense, which is seems to be, it's totally believable that Robb would swear in the name of southern gods while being in south. It doesn't mean that he has changed his religion. It just seems that religion is not "pick one, never believe in anything else" choise for him as it is for people today.

Of course it's possible that I've misunderstood ASOAIF in this matter but this is how I've understood religion works in it.

Edited by Arawni

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So fell in love with this series and I've not read the books but I have to admit I've checked online to find the fates of some characters as I just couldn't bare to wait things out. Looked up Loras and Danaerys and happy to see they last.

My question to you book readers and the one gripe I had about this episode is that Dany, earlier in the series, runs into her villa to see all the dothraki bloodied and at this stage it seems her entire klan is annihilated by assassins. We get an idea of how many she has with them when she first meets the 13 outside the gates of Qarth. So it seems that all of them were killed except her main companion whose name I forget and one other dothraki protector.

So what annoyed me and what I wanted to ask book readers is how all of sudden when she has her dragons back it seems like a ton of dothraki are still with her. Where the heck did they come from??!?! Is this the case in the books too?

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HoU scene didn't bother me since I know they're making major changes to the story anyway. I suspect book loyalists will completely tune out the show next season.

Personally, I'm glad they are going off the track a bit with the plots because as much as I love the books dearly, I like being surprised to some extent on the show and don't want to be just watching the book.

I was disappointed in the final scene, Sam frustrates me enough as is, but the Others looked different than earlier, so maybe they have different classes / ranks, because at the rear of the pack you see a second Other who is wearing a suit of armor (though maybe when we see it next season it will be the camouflaged suit) and has the ice/glass sword on horseback. Just left me confused though that they pass over Sam. They didn't pass over anyone in the books in that Varymyr prologue.

HotU, I think they had to leave out some of those scenes because honestly, what can be disguised on paper can be very very apparent on film. I think GRRM probably wrote in the new scenes to help cloudy that up a bit. At first I thought the visions were to get her to stay there, but the first two don't align with that at all. Does she turn away from the iron throne because she doesn't really want it (is it snow or is it ashes)? She's beyond the wall, is that her true path? She sees her tent with KD, but she reiterates the prophecy that implies it will never ever be, does it imply she will die beyond the wall or find a new husband, etc.

I was definitely on the edge of my seat, though disappointed as a reader, but pretty floored by the three scenes in the House. I loved Mamoa's scene particularly, I was shocked when he appeared.

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So fell in love with this series and I've not read the books but I have to admit I've checked online to find the fates of some characters as I just couldn't bare to wait things out. Looked up Loras and Danaerys and happy to see they last. My question to you book readers and the one gripe I had about this episode is that Dany, earlier in the series, runs into her villa to see all the dothraki bloodied and at this stage it seems her entire klan is annihilated by assassins. We get an idea of how many she has with them when she first meets the 13 outside the gates of Qarth. So it seems that all of them were killed except her main companion whose name I forget and one other dothraki protector. So what annoyed me and what I wanted to ask book readers is how all of sudden when she has her dragons back it seems like a ton of dothraki are still with her. Where the heck did they come from??!?! Is this the case in the books too?

They've done a very poor job with her story line this season, she orginally had a troupe made up of old, battered, and dying with a few good screamers left. Then the show has made it appear as though everyone is annihilated. But, oh wait, they aren't all dead, just the ones who were on Xaro Ducksauce's property (so where is everyone else). Just some crappy story telling to spice up what they screwed up earlier in my opinion.

You'll see over the next few seasons that the Dothraki as is currently, don't really matter much outside of what were supposed to be a few key blood riders.

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Non-reader here with a few observations. Now, I don't mind a spoiler or two and I guess that's why I'm on this thread. I think hearing the back stories from book readers is really interesting and fills in many gaps - even though most of those observations are rants (I totally get it). So here's where I am:

After Season 1, I'm thinking - great, the Starks are going to King's Landing and are going to get some revenge - obvious story line. Also - WTF -are those real dragons? Yeah, that chick is going to burn some shit down. Also, why is the coolest Stark (or non-Stark), Jon Snow going to the wall? Must be pretty pivotal. Also, I can't wait for Joffrey and his Mom, Uncle/Dad is get theirs. The Imp is probably the best character on this show.

Season 2 has me thinking - Okay, how far does this poor woman have to roam the desert with these dragons? She's really going to burn shit down now, because really, how are you going to stop a dragon? Robb Stark is on a mission - wait a minute, who's this chick and why is his quest completely derailed by her? WTF - they're married - why? Arya is going to be pretty badass someday and may be the one that avenges her father. Why hasn't Joffery and his mom been killed yet? It's going to be awesome when the Lannisters get theirs. Stannis is pretty cool but that witch he's with will be his demise. I don't really seeing this guy going anywhere. How many more characters / families / tribes / magical beings can they introduce this year? Who sacked Winterfell? And are they going to be sorry when the Starks get their shit together.

This last episode was great - in the context of the others. I also know that is TV Land, the second to the last episode is always the best and the finale is supposed to set up the next season. So, I guess Jon Snow will infiltrate the wildlings and destroy them from the inside. Unlike others, I wasn't confused about his battle with the other "crow." I thought they explained that earlier. Arya is on a quest to find her family and the face changer was pretty cool. Robb Stark probably f'd up pretty good for some unknown reason - I didn't like that whole marriage scene - didn't make sense to me but maybe they have to show the betrayal so that they can kill him off next year. The Lannisters are still in power and Imp got screwed. I'm guessing we're not going to see the end of him. Dany's scene at the magician's tower seemed a little weak and rushed. As mentioned several times, it's probably much better in the book but I think I got the point with the little foreshadowing they did include. She probably will be queen soon? Lastly, the White Walkers seem pretty unstoppable (except maybe for dragons? - hoping). Nice way to end the season.

When I read through this thread and tried to fill in the gaps through character wiki sites, I leave very confused. So Arya never avenges her father's death but rather will always be on the run and in hiding, eventually moving away from the kindoms? Tyrion will never be King and also is always on the run, leaving his family behind? Dany continues to unsuccessfully try to raise armies and never really becomes the queen? The Starks will basically be no more? The Lannisters are always in power? It seems that the most important characters haven't even been introduced and all of the people we've been watching never amount to anything and will constantly be in hiding. I hope this is not the case and next season doesn't disappoint but if it dragged out like this season did, I may be done.

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I still can't help but think of dementors during some of those creepy scenes. I wasn't particularly impressed with how things ended. I knew the last song was called Three Blasts, but I didn't quite expect the zombie/Pirates of the Caribbean undead with a Nordic twist either. Last week's episode was so spectacular, it would have been very hard to outshine it, and it was.

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