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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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He's not worthy of the Other's attention, if he's going to sit there the dead will eventually devour him. What bothers me most (apart from the Frosty Uruk-Hai appearance and Nazgul-scream they gave him) is that Sam is actually going to get out of a situation even Bronn wouldn't survive, what with the tons of dead people and mounted Others and all.

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I'm really not happy with this episode. It just confirms that some of the storylines are indeed botched. Some if it may theoretically get fixed in S3 but I doubt it.

Minor points:

-Arya really should have killed someone herself, would be somewhat important for her character development

-I don't think it's really clear why Winterfell is burned or why the boys have to leave

-For the most part, the subtletly has been taken out of the books for the adaption. See Littlefinger, who is a lot less subtle than he's supposed to be. This is something I agree with. Yet, for some reason, subtlety has been *added* to Jon/Qhorin? From what I've seen, a lot of people have not understood why Jon killed Qhorin, because he never explicitely told Jon to do so. I see no reason why they had it like that.

Major points:

-A whole freaking army marches by Sam and ignores him? Wha?

-Dany's entire storyline was so useless. We can't take anything out of the prophecies because we can't be sure if D&D didn't just botch something up, but besides that nothing really happens. There were also really a lot of plot holes in the entire storyline

-So Robb marries Talisa because he wants to(not because he feels compelled to do by his honor), he does it with a clear mind (Instead of being stricken by grief), his mother knows about it yet does nothing besides trying to talk him out of it (Way to make Catelyn more weak imo...). I feared this would happen, it's just another way to finish off a bad storyline in the worst possible way really. Oh yeah and he swears by the seven. They changed his entire character really...

Edited by insertname

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Catelyn isn't that weak imo, anyone paying attention will have noticed that every time Robb ignored her advice (and he did so every time) it turned for the worse, lol. I also think her opposing the King rather than being a bitch and saying Eddard should do as his King commands (defying the King's authority is more dangerous) like she did in the books was a twist that made her stronger. And then her scene where she stands up to Karstark, gotta love that, harharhar. Robb is probably being made an asshole of to goad people into a soft landing when he dies. After all to most viewers it will seem he did nothing with his army either after his victory over Stefford Lannister.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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The major point of happiness I got from this episode was that Theon is looking very likely to be in the next series instead of cutting him out for 2/3 years, there's no way they could not include him and hopefully Ramsay after that exit. I loved Tywin's arrival, really looking forward to him shaking things up and clashing with Joffrey as I loved that element in the books. The ending beyond the Wall was a spectacular cliffhanger also, the books ending was much less grandiose, TV requires a cliffhanger. I'm also pleased the halfhand was killed by Jon, albeit in different circumstances, I hope they emphasise his remaining loyalty to the Watch next series.

The Robb/Talisa/Catelyn side of things is a complete disaster. Karstark mentioning the seven was bad but the King of the North? It was just plain shit from the writers. Its honestly hard to recognise Robb as the King in the North in the show. I appreciate the embellishing of Robb's character that needed to happen with him on screen instead of far away but they have completely ruined him to many, he is nothing in comparison to Eddard in terms of likeability through his actions, which is something that really came across in the books. I'm similarly disappointed with Arya leaving Harranhal with clean hands but they can easily rectify that on the road to Riverrun, she will need something to do after all.

The House of the Undying scenes were interesting, but ultimately served absolutely no purpose, Dany really needed some prophecy thrown around at her along with links to the past (ie. Rhaegar scenes) to properly link her character to returning to Westeros. My non book reader friends reactions to when she doesn't go to Westeros is going to be hilarious, isn't the point she turns to Slavers Bay because Illyrio sends her the ships back to Westeros?

All in all, despite how awesome Blackwater was, this season has failed to live up to the first. Alfie Allen as Theon has been spectacular, Peter Dinklage nailed it again also. I'm hoping next series (or two) are the best the series have, in conjunction with SoS being the best book. Beyond the Wall and King's Landing are in order for this to happen, but the plots in the Riverlands and Winterfell/The Dreadfort seriously need sorting out early on next series to get the show back on track.

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I gave the episode an 8. Thought it was great TV, decent ASOIAF storytelling. Most stuff has been discussed ad nauseum so I'm just going to comment on Robb. Robb is a POV lacking fringe character in the books. Despite truly knowing how he thinks or feels about anything, many of us readers are drawn to him (I'd argue) because of two things.

1. He personifies the legacy of Ned Stark (a character we became very close to in AGOT and want to see avenged).

2. We are influenced to root for him through how he's endeared by other characters (particularly Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Jon).

These 2 dynamics work together to make the RW one of the most shocking and devastating moments in the series.

Robb has been changed in the television series, and though I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes; I would argue it's for the same effect. Non-book readers root for the Robb of the television series, the way us book readers rooted for him in the novels. I've talked to several people that are emotionally invested in his character because he's Ned son, and because they see him as a great warrior and a generally good guy.

For a lot of them, the love story enhances Robb's character. He's human, and he finds peace and love in the midst of war and betrayal. He's under tremendous pressure and wants to do the right thing, but doesn't always know what that means. They have no clue what a blunder he's making. How could they? It will only serve to make the RW have as great an effect (if not a greater) on TV show fans, as it did on a lot of readers. Should DB and DW accomplish this, then I will consider their handling of Robb's story a success. As a book reader, I'm going to be excited enough to see the build up to and execution of the RW. Not really all that worried about subtle divergences or plot changes on the way, just getting there. (My wife is going to punch a hole in the wall) :drunk:

Lastly, I don't think the Talisa identity issue is solved just yet. Otherwise, how are they going to resolve Robb's difficulty or inability to produce an heir?

Edited by Grey Robb

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i didn't like the final episode very much. arya and winterfell were great, but the whole dany story was adapted pretty bad and gave me no shivers or strong sensations, and that madeup end with xaros was awful.

a letdown compared to last season's finale.

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After Blackwater, I actually really learned a lesson in switching off the analytical/book reader part of my mind and just enjoying it. I'm really glad I did cos this episode was fantastic, the extra time really allowed for the scenes to breathe and not feel compressed or rushed. And sorry, but this is the most out of proportion I've ever seen the fans response on this site. SOOOOOOO many people saying the HoTU was poorly done. It's so strange, of all the things to get your hopes up about.......did everyone seriously think that it'd be the same as the book? Hey, here's some guy you've never heard of holding a baby.......here's four rat-dwarfs crawling over a naked chick......here's some wizards in a hall...... 99% of the viewers would feel utterly let down that a patchy season for her had ended with some messed up acid trip that made no sense whatsoever. Converting this stuff to TV isn't just about dropping plots, it ultimately is about simplifying stuff. Familiar faces, familiar locations........viewers are now left with hope that Dany might see that throne room for real, that her dragons are a serious force for her to use........it was a good way to end her season.

And this end scene, with the army of wights, that every non-book reader reaction I've seen says it's awesome..........was awesome. Yes, the Other looked a little different. He looked awesome. Yes the army of wights looked like zombies. THE WIGHTS ARE ZOMBIES. Their description is identical, they're reanimated corpses.

Sorry to be ranty, but when they announced this show we were all "cool, we can see a massive Other/Wights army attacking the fist!" Then we get it........and everyone whinges that they look TOO much like zombies!? These zombie creatures?

Well I'm very satisfied. Ultimately, a Clash of Kings doesn't fit into ten episodes so stuff's been changed. The last two episodes really made up for any weaknesses and I'm fully confident that Season 3 and onward are going to be incredible.

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Hope they are not going to do this for season 3. Book 3 is a long book and it needs 20 episodes, maybe split into season 3 and season 4.

That has actually long been confirmed by D&D.

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the extra time really allowed for the scenes to breathe and not feel compressed or rushed.

Really? I felt the complete opposite. I thought the entire episode rushed

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Allright...

So I got through ten pages and just wanted to put down my thoughts before I forget everything I wanted to say. Some of this has been mentioned by others...

I am pretty sure it is through Sansa's story in the books that we learn that since the Starks worship the old gods and the Tully's worship the seven the Stark children worship the old gods and the new. While some patriarchs might force the children to take only the fathers religion, Ned was definately the kinda guy who would want the kids to respect their mothers faith as well. We don't ever get to hear Robb's internal monolouge but it is not unreasonable to imagine that he leans more to the seven... This "gigantic mistake" is not necessarily such a big deal...

Speaking of Gods.. Peter Dinklage is a freaking GOD! He owns the screen. If he wasn't a small person he would already be established as a Robert DeNiro/Gary Oldman calibre actor. This series will win him many more awards.

Yes I was initially disappointed with the HOTU scene however I do agree with people who acknowledge that it would be too spoilery or take too much to explain. The Red Wedding will be one of the most shocking things to ever happen on tv when it happens so it would be a really bad idea to start showing those cards. And of course the tv only crew don't know who Rheagar and Elia are so that vision would make no sense. They will need to explain who Elia is eventually though or else they take a lot of oomph out of the battle between the Red Viper and the Mountain. All that being siad the two simple changes they could have made... A blue rose at the wall would have been a nice foreshadow and would not be too confusing. Pyat Pree could have had a simple bit of dialouge... something like " I am keeping you here to save you... if you leave you will face three betrayals...". Still for the limits and differences of the televsion medium, it was a good scene.

In the "previously on..." segment before the show aires Robb tells Roose that any Ironborn who surrender will be spared and allowed to return home. So it seems obvious that Dagmer and co. knocked Theon out to turn him over and buy their freedom.

Why couldn't they just have a little close up on Bran as he leaves Winterfell saying it's not dead, "just broken, like me". I was really hoping to hear this line.

They are making Shae love Tyrion WAYYYY too much. It's gonna be hard to believe that she betrays him and bangs his Dad and even harder to believe that he is going to strangle her. And there is no way they can change these parts of Tyrions story.

I leave the second season a bit frustrated with Arya's story. For many of us it is one of the favorites. I enjoyed the Arya Tywin stuff just because those two actors make those scenes soo great. However so many of Arya's iconic moments were changed or eliminated. There will be no "is there gold in the village" killing of the tickler. There was no weasal soup, no leeches and they skipped over Arya's first real intentionall hands on cold blooded kill (stableboy not withstanding). This is huge for her arc.

Another concern- Nobody knows that Bran and Rickon are "dead". I remember Arya overhears this at some point while in Harranhal. More importantly Robb and Cat need to know because, it would have been better motivation for Cat releasing Jaime and Robb needs to name Jon the heir of Winterfell before he dies. Jon turning down Stannis's offer to name him lord of Winterfell and release him from the NW is important to Jon's character and his eventual "doom" or what have you.

And again, maybe I am giving too much credit to the "previoiusly on" segment but in that they add a little more reminder explanation that Qhorin wants Jon to kill him and be a spy. I think it could have been handled a bit better but the tv audience will figure it out.

I love the show and I love the books. They are seperate things. Some things that can be told in written form do not translate to good television. To be a %100 book purists is irrational and suggests that you may not entirely understand the nuanced differences between the two mediums. I do not agree with every change but I think the show creators are doing a remarkable job in adapting source material that is just massive in depth and scope. I applaud them and look forward to next season.

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I for one, despite my deception on how Jon's story was handled is pretty satisfied with the episode, no real change. All the stories are wrapped up according to the book.

Even the Hotu who translates better to TV this way. It would have been too cheasy to do it as in the books.

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Awful way to end a season

Anyone who hasn't read the books is going to expect the rest of the story to be Dawn of the Dead with longswords in Siberia

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I had a feeling I would be let down after Blackwater. The shortcomings of this episode have been well expressed here in the previous pages. The burning of Winterfell was very shoddily explained. They never showed the "army" outside. If they hadn't gotten Ramsay cast, they still could have put a guy in full plate on a horse with the flayed man on his shield, pointing at the horn player to blow again, and the point would've gotten across just fine. I suppose they wlil have a call back in the beginning of season three and actually show this scene...at least I hope so, because I don't think the TV viewer is going to be able to figure things out.

House of the Undying was short, simplistic, and a huge let-down. Dany's big Drakaris moment was such an anti-climax...it came off as an episode of Sanctuary or something instead of HBO's Game of Thrones.

There was one shining moment in this episode, however, that almost makes up for the rest; Maester Luwin's death was the first scene in the TV series that actually made me get teary. I knew it was coming, and it had been a very moving part of the book as well, especially with Rickon for whom Luwin was almost his only father figure.

I guess we'll see what happens next April.

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A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the Brienne/Jaime scene. It was a scene that really brings forth one of Martin's main points of the book. It shows that Stark men at arms are just as bad as Lannister men at arms and drives home the point that this is not a story of good versus evil. Non-readers haven't had that point drilled home to them yet and this scene serves that purpose.

HotU was kind of a disappointment for me as well but I need to see where they go with the story first before I can really complain about it.

Final scene was pretty sweet, but I always pictured the wights as less shambling. More like the zombies from 23 days later and less like the walking dead.

Edited by bumurutu

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A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the Brienne/Jaime scene. It was a scene that really brings forth one of Martin's main points of the book. It shows that Stark men at arms are just as bad as Lannister men at arms and drives home the point that this is not a story of good versus evil. Non-readers haven't had that point drilled home to them yet and this scene serves that purpose.

Just what I felt too... hope some of the Unsullied will find so soon.

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I felt like I was watching Shaun of the Dead.

Well, I half expected Michael Jackson to come tap-dancing out of the snowstorm and start singing "Thriller."

Seriously, the Wights were altogether too B-grade horror movie cliché.

On another matter, my mind was screaming "Plot Hole!" when Dany showed up in Xaro's bedroom. Hello, the guy just offed twelve of the most powerful guys in Qarth-- he should have enough guards around his home to withstand three armies. And the guards should definitely have orders to keep an eye out for a certain silver-haired Targaryen who Xaro must know hates his guts now.

And meanwhile there's potential plot discontinuity issue looming. Xaro reappears in Book 5, not in a key role (though he may play one in book 6), and we are even told the Pyat Pree is looking for Dany to have his vengence on her. So maybe we can assume that Xaro's servants wake up and get him out of the vault? And that old Pyat Pree really is Undying?

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I don't think they can get Xaro out of the Vault can they? There is only one key, and I assume that they aren't going to leave it around.

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White walkers are the ones that return from the dead and the Others are the ones that live in the ice and have woken, right?

Do you think the one white walker on the horse was Dothraki? He looked a bit savage and had a pony tail! I wonder how they all ended up in that place.

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