[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

[House Martell]

White walkers are the ones that return from the dead and the Others are the ones that live in the ice and have woken, right?

Do you think the one white walker on the horse was Dothraki? He looked a bit savage and had a pony tail! I wonder how they all ended up in that place.

White Walkers and Others are the same thing, Wights are the "zombies"

I thought they were white during the day and dark at night was bc they had camoflague, as they have Predator-like armor in the book (kinda) too.

Good point, they are described to kinda "blend" into whats around them and being that this is the first broad daylight viewing it makes sense. Their skin is described as "milk white" but they have that funky crystal armor. I thought they were real skinny though and that dude seemed pretty jacked (not a big deal)

[dark sister]

I pictured the Others as a lot more elegant, but the sword it was holding was fantastic. I am really glad it was white because all of the other times they have shown "others" they seem black, hairy and ape-like, so I'm very happy that it was the ghostly book style.

I felt like Luwin's death was kinda anti-climactic (side note: did he want to be killed without milk of the poppy in front of the Heart Tree so that he could be a blood sacrifice to the old Gods...? Thoughts?) but I still got a little choked up :frown5:

I think that your idea about Luwin and the heart tree is a very interesting one -- one that never occurred to me. Although he never mentions milk of the poppy in the book. Rickon just says "You CAN'T DIE! YOU CAN'T!" and Shaggydog mirrors his feelings. Luwin says "I'm an old man, I can die if I want to." What WAS interesting that happened in the book was the fact that despite his obviously painful wound, he dragged himself up to the heart tree. That makes me think that your point may have some validity to it.

Ok, my opinion about the episode...it's a much more complex reaction than I've had to all the other episodes, and that's not because it was the finale. Overall, as one who has read the books, I understood everything that was going on, even with the major changes that the producers made.

For instance -- Theon gives a rousing speech to the Ironborn men, then "Dagmer" knocks him out. (I put that name in quotes because he is not at all like the Dagmer Cleftjaw who was pretty much a foster father to Theon in the book.) So the question is, for not only the book readers but also especially the non-readers: how long had his men been plotting against him? Was it "Dagmer" who convinced the other men that it would be better to abandon their prince (an act of treason) and raze Winterfell to the ground? In other threads there have been discussions about just how much gold is in Winterfell, and the conclusions were: not nearly as much as places like Highgarden, Casterly Rock, or KL. Ok, I guess they could take the tapestries and other valuables, but then what? They become rogues, broken men? What happens when Balon and Asha hear about this?

Or was "Dagmer" in some sort of plot with Ramsay? But that wouldn't be possible because they supposedly killed all the ravens. That part was confusing to me.

My mother has gotten into the series, but refuses to read the books. I can understand why -- she's originally from Iran and although she can read just fine, she's always found fantasy a little confusing. Something about the fake names and places make it hard for her to "get it", I suppose. I keep encouraging her to read the books, but let me just tell you guys, from her perspective, what she found confusing (and she's a smart woman):

First of all, THE OTHERS. I tried to explain to her that in the series, they hadn't really explained the difference between a wight and an Other. I then tried to explain it to her, and her befuddled expression spoke volumes. I explained again, and she kind of understood. As the army was passing by, she wondered why Sam wasn't killed by the Other who looked straight at him. I said that I had no idea, I was confused about that as well.

Secondly, the Ironborn part, which I just brought up. I explained that they probably didn't respect Theon and was sick of him, so they decided to burn Winterfell and take the belongings.

Thirdly, she didn't understand at all what was going on in the HotU. She didn't know why the throne room was in ashes and it was snowing. (At first I thought ALL of the white stuff was ashes, and hey, maybe it was?) So I had to explain to her something from the book, and the vision she had of her father -- him pacing up and down the throne room muttering "let him be king over ashes. Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat."

Then, Dany goes into the tent with Drogo and her son. (Little side note: those baby's eyes looked purple to me! Interesting that they made his hair dark, too.) I told her that this vision was NOT in the book, but that there were other ones that were far more important. I explained that there were other visions (and words) that were extremely important but hadn't been included in the episode. She was puzzled with their decision not to include those things.

She was absolutely astounded by Jaqen's transformation into another man, and it was quite comical because she kept begging me to tell her how he did it. I said I couldn't give away secrets that I didn't have the answers to. I did tell her what valar morghulis means, though.

She also wondered how the dragonfire didn't burn her but did burn Pyat Pree. That kind of niggled at me as well -- I mean, it was between her, but definitely close enough to cause AT LEAST second degree burns. I don't care how "immune" to fire is (which apparently she's not, if I'm not mistaken - her walking into the flames was a "one time deal"). When she confronted Drogo at the pit I don't think she even got scalded -- I wish Martin would make up his mind!

She also didn't understand what Pyat Pree meant about his magic working now that dragons were born.

Then there was the scene with Qhorin Halfhand. She was shocked that he killed him, so I had to explain how it was set up in the book. I told her the whole scene, about him asking if his blade was sharp, etc. etc.

Ok, so why am I talking so much about my mother's reactions to the episode, instead of my own? The reason is because I think she represents a viewer with above-average intelligence who is absolutely confused by these scenes which they changed and distorted.

To sum up my view, I enjoyed the episode, especially the part where Dany has her dragons burn PP while she's chained - a powerful image. Of course, I liked the Others bit (the horn was a great-sounding horn, too!) and I also pretty much enjoyed everything else.

However, enjoying it isn't the same as not being confused with some of the decisions the producers made.

I guess my big question would be this: why, why did they decide to put in that fake story in Qarth? PP and XXD conspiring to take her dragons, Irri dying, Doreah NOT being dead, Dany not getting her crown, not meeting Barristan Selmy and getting the ships...I think that putting the book storyline into the season, (with some trimming, of course) would have been the same level of complication as this new plot line they decided to go with. My reasoning is that they wanted to put in major suspense by having the dragons stolen, but they could have built up the same level of suspense many other ways: one way being Dany's realization that she is nothing but a rich beggar, threatened by greedy Qartheens, and trying to get a ship OUT of there. I think her getting a crown would have been a brilliant scene, really. They could have also put in Barristan Selmy following her - not just that one day at the docks, but throughout the season, trying to see what her personality was like.

I feel like instead, they wasted a lot of screen time with excessive nudity and sex scenes, or dialogue scenes where people just mocked each other (one scene that comes instantly to mind is Bronn trimming his nails and Tyrion complaining about it -- what's the point?) I am not a prude by any means (in fact, when I go to the beach, I go to a nude one, and I'm from America, hehe), but I found it to be excessive. There wasn't even any "sexposition" most of the time. What do other people think? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

My main conclusion is that it was an entertaining episode and finale to watch, but that it also brought with it MUCH confusion - not just to me, but especially to the poor fans out there who haven't read the books. Methinks that quite a few more people will be picking up the books now and trolling through them because of this finale alone :eek: Could it be a sly marketing ploy? (No, no, not really...although one never knows, right?)

Ok...The scene between Stannis and Melisandre was utterly ridiculous. The woman drank POISON and wasn't killed, and she reads her own future in the flames before anyone else's. For Stannis to choke her, and for her to be at his utter mercy, was soooooo unreal. When I say unreal, I literally mean, it couldn't have happened. It did not fit in with either of their characters -- esp Stannis supposedly seeming some bullshit in the flames. That really irked me.

And, of course, this CANNOT be denied -- the nadir of the episode was Robb's marrying Lady Talisa Migasdidfsdfswtf her name is IN THE NAME OF THE SEVEN?! That left me speechless for a moment, literally, before I started to swear and curse about how false this was for Robb's character. Totally aside from that - that's just a little thing, although it's almost little the way a little piece of glass lodged in your lung is little - there's his selfishness in revoking his vow to the Freys and marrying her against his mother's wishes. What made the RW so tragic was that Robb was killed in a very similar way that Ned was -- he did it to shield a woman's honor. Ned tried to honor Cersei and her children, and Robb tried to honor Jeyne Westerling's virginity. And, of course, the circumstances are so important. He had just learned of his brothers' "deaths" and was deeply wounded. The storyline they made for Robb and Talisa was so close to a Twilight romance between Edward and Bella that you could slide a hair between the difference.

So now, when the RW happens, people will be saying "well it was his fault. everyone warned him not to do it, but he did it anyway." Or if they don't have feelings quite that blunt, they'll still have that memory of it being his stubborn choice. Now I wonder that if they do the RW scene, will Talisa be there? Will it be ROBB who cannot bear to part from Talisa, and so she walks into her own death trap? Or will it play out pretty much like it did in the books? Ah, so many questions.

And one more thing, I pray you, even though it's off topic - personally I (and probably others) believe Talisa is a spy for Tywin (or Jeyne Westerling, or whateverthefuck). Right after Arya reads that note about Robb, they go to a scene with her writing a message, calling herself a brilliant liar, saying she's writing the Lannisters about his movements etc. etc. But the interesting thing that I'm sure people caught was she was just holding the note whilst Robb was there. But when Catelyn comes to see them, she rolls up the note quickly. THAT'S because she knows she can keep Robb's attention by batting her big brown eyes at him, but she cannot do the same with Catelyn. And, fearing that Catelyn will ask to see the note, she pretty much flees right after introducing herself. I also think that her story, while it may be true, was used manipulatively, to play on Robb's sense of mercy, sense of honor, sympathy, etc. So a giggling, smiling Talisa may not have just been in love and eager to make love (as one poster said, after the episode aired) but in actuality a sly, giggle that she has him, now. And it's a short step from hot sex to a marriage of a young man.

So, that's my complex reaction. Entertaining, confusing, let down (as always) and hopeful.

Edited June 5, 2012 by dark sister

[dark sister]

White Walkers and Others are the same thing, Wights are the "zombies"

Good point, they are described to kinda "blend" into whats around them and being that this is the first broad daylight viewing it makes sense. Their skin is described as "milk white" but they have that funky crystal armor. I thought they were real skinny though and that dude seemed pretty jacked (not a big deal)

If one looked closely, one could see that the wights were the clumsy, stumbling ones who still looked human but had the blue eyes, whereas anything on a dead horse was an Other, and was white all over. I wish they had put the armor on them -- why not? Would it really have been that expensive?

And I thought that wights were slightly different from Others...Others are the original monsters, whereas wights are their thralls who used to be men but are not walking zombies, obedient to the Others' commands. It's hard to say since we know so little about them!

[Silmarien]

Well, I half expected Michael Jackson to come tap-dancing out of the snowstorm and start singing "Thriller."

Seriously, the Wights were altogether too B-grade horror movie cliché.

On another matter, my mind was screaming "Plot Hole!" when Dany showed up in Xaro's bedroom. Hello, the guy just offed twelve of the most powerful guys in Qarth-- he should have enough guards around his home to withstand three armies. And the guards should definitely have orders to keep an eye out for a certain silver-haired Targaryen who Xaro must know hates his guts now.

And meanwhile there's potential plot discontinuity issue looming. Xaro reappears in Book 5, not in a key role (though he may play one in book 6), and we are even told the Pyat Pree is looking for Dany to have his vengence on her. So maybe we can assume that Xaro's servants wake up and get him out of the vault? And that old Pyat Pree really is Undying?

What, she couldn't have killed Xaro's guards with the dragons? Why would they need to show that? I think Dany having dragons that will breathe fire on command means she can go wherever she wants, pretty much.

[ser poopypants]

Wight captain? wtf, man.

It IS an Other. White Walker. Whatever, you name it. But no, it is not a wight.

i'm clutching at straws here. i just don't want the others to be so lame visually. you know how it is: we haven't yet "seen" them in the books and so the tv version is going to colonize our mind's image. plus martin may feel pressure to conform to the series' look once/if he does get around to describing them in more detail.

[Wolfheart]

Ghost and Grey Wind got hosed this season. Mostly Ghost. I bet non reader audiences think Ghost is gone.

"Missing Direwolf. White fur, red eyes. Goes by the name of Ghost. If seen please contact me at the wildling camp. Thanks, ~Jon Snow"

[dark sister]

I also agree that although they didn't show the same things as in the books...there was still quite a lot of symbolism to pick up.

I also thought why was it snowing in the Throne Room... and why did it look nearly destroyed. I also noticed that when Dany approached the Iron Throne, she seemed to look at something particular - her eyes were fixed to something at one point. If you are looking at a throne in general your eyes would wonder about.... but her eyes stared at one point... so I though that maybe there was someone there. And did someone realise what was she about to touch? Was it just part of a throne?

All her visions included snow..accept the Khal Drogo part.

And that I found interesting that she went to Khal Drogo beyond the wall. It means as if... there is something safe for her beyond the wall. When usually everyone knows that nobody goes beyond the wall, thats where the world ends basically. But she found something dearest to her beyond the wall.

Also It seems to me that few things are not being mentioned by people here. Things that I found really coool. And they were:

JAQEN H'GHAR!!!!! How well was he portrayed by Tom Wlaschiha!!!! He really made the character seem mysterious and dangerous. His firm facial expression which was almost always smiling but you can't really tell if that's a smile or not. And his tone of voice which knows more than it speaks...calm and solid. Really good job there - was a joy to watch! I will be missing Jaqen - I hope we will see him more.

THE DRAGONS!!!! I loved the way they looked. Really good animation there. I liked how they stared at Dany as if waiting/wanting something from her. The voice the dragons make...is really good!!! You can really hear it in a voice that its not your regular cute little pet. There are so many textures to the sound they make.

Hey! Just wanted to let you know that this was a "possible future" of what would have happened, had Aerys allowed the pyromancers to light the caches that were hidden underneath the city (including the Red Keep). It was either snowing ashes (which can be white) or it was just plain snowing, like "Winter has truly arrived because of what has happened" -- somethin like that.

She was staring at the handle of a sword that was affixed to the Iron Throne. Just one of the many hundreds of swords that were melted, this one had its hilt sticking out. She wanted to touch it, possibly to see what was underneath. Basically I think the whole idea was to tempt her to dust off the snow/ashes of the Iron Throne and see, finally, the object of her desire. When that didn't work, they sent her something closer to her heart -- Drogo and a dark haired, purple eyed baby. (I'm still wondering why they didn't get a blond baby, but oh well.)

I had a different interpretation of her going through the Wall. There are many on the forum who are Dany/Jon shippers, hoping they'll get together, and there's that image in the HotU where a blue rose comes out of an ice wall, and its sweet smell fills the air...that might indicate Jon. And tweaking your theory, maybe it means that it is safe for her to be AT the Wall. With Jon. Somehow. Anyway, I think it just means that she'll end up on the Wall somehow, whether or not Jon is there. (Random thought: when Queen Alysanne rode Silverwing to the Wall, how did the dragon not burn away a huge part of ice? I guess because of all the magic that's locked within the Wall, as Melisandre says in book 5.)

Totally agree about the dragons, their voices, everything you said. Spot-on!

Jaqen H'ghar was absolutely incredible. They couldn't have picked a better actor. The only tiny part was when he said "please" to Arya when she had named him to kill himself. A man would never do such a thing. But still, I wish he were a main character, I love him so much! I think I'll write a letter to that actor, telling him what a magnificent job he did. We both should! Do you know where he's from? His accent sounds a tiny bit like Shae's.

It seems you really liked the episode, so good on ya mate :)

[dark sister]

Ghost and Grey Wind got hosed this season. Mostly Ghost. I bet non reader audiences think Ghost is gone.

"Missing Direwolf. White fur, red eyes. Goes by the name of Ghost. If seen please contact me at the wildling camp. Thanks, ~Jon Snow"

:bowdown:

I died laughing.

[Catastrophe]

For instance -- Theon gives a rousing speech to the Ironborn men, then "Dagmer" knocks him out. (I put that name in quotes because he is not at all like the Dagmer Cleftjaw who was pretty much a foster father to Theon in the book.) So the question is, for not only the book readers but also especially the non-readers: how long had his men been plotting against him? Was it "Dagmer" who convinced the other men that it would be better to abandon their prince (an act of treason) and raze Winterfell to the ground? In other threads there have been discussions about just how much gold is in Winterfell, and the conclusions were: not nearly as much as places like Highgarden, Casterly Rock, or KL. Ok, I guess they could take the tapestries and other valuables, but then what? They become rogues, broken men? What happens when Balon and Asha hear about this?

Or was "Dagmer" in some sort of plot with Ramsay? But that wouldn't be possible because they supposedly killed all the ravens. That part was confusing to me.

The Ironborn handed Theon over to the Northern army in exchange for being allowed to leave unharmed. This was set up two episodes ago, when Robb told Roose Bolton to have his bastard son release any Ironborn who surrendered, except for Theon himself. The Northmen must've met with Dagmer and the other Ironborn at some point during the night and worked out a deal. As for Winterfell being burned to the ground, that part is really unclear. I'm assuming that the Bastard of Bolton did it, as he did in the books, but it's hard to tell for sure from what little information we've been given.

I agree that this whole plot could've been handled much better, the screenwriters made it way too confusing. I can't imagine any casual viewer figuring this out on their own.

First of all, THE OTHERS. I tried to explain to her that in the series, they hadn't really explained the difference between a wight and an Other. I then tried to explain it to her, and her befuddled expression spoke volumes. I explained again, and she kind of understood. As the army was passing by, she wondered why Sam wasn't killed by the Other who looked straight at him. I said that I had no idea, I was confused about that as well.

Even in the books, the distinction between the Others and the Wights was unclear to a lot of people, so it's not just a problem with the show. (Just look at the ASoIaF General forum, seems like every other week there's someone who read all five books and still doesn't get it.) That's one of the things I really liked about the comic book adaptation of AGoT: It was crystal clear, right from the first few pages, that the Others and the Wights were very different beings.

[rmholt]

Okay, I haven't been watching the show (no HBO), so all my information is second-hand, but as far as I know, Ramsay's atrocities weren't mentioned in the season as they were in the book, so perhaps D&D didn't show the actual burning to keep viewers in the dark to the fact that it wasn't the Ironborn who did it, making the Bolton's betrayal all the more shocking when it happens.

Ramsey is coming

[rmholt]

NIce Zombie Parade/Apocalypse.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

my own 2 cents regarding the Theon/Winterfell arc and ending. In a season which I found enjoyable, changes and all, I found the Theon story to be the most well executed. Alfie Allen really nailed the character, and some of the most moving scenes of the season were in this bit.

If you've read the books, you ought to be able to predict what happened after Theon is knocked out. Clearly, Dagmer et al. were taking Robb's offer to turn over Theon, and flee. What I presume happened was that when the prisoner exchange was made, Ramsay simply kills all the Iron born, puts Winterfell to the torch, and tells everyone Theon did it.

It gives the audience a cliffhanger, regarding Theon; and allows the show to obscure the Bolton treachery for a while longer. That's important, so that the RW next season comes as enough of a shock.

Further, Theon and Ramsay sort of disappear until what- aDwD? There's not much they're doing on screen for a while, but I have to assume they're casting Ramsay (see: Stannis treatment, last year). And they're not going to let Allen go for two years. My bet is that we get introduced to Reek, another of Ramsay's prisoners, next year. He toys with Theon in some fashion. Around the same time the Red Wedding is happening, and the Bolton's treachery is revealed, Reek is revealed as Ramsay, the Bastard of the Dreadfort. Commence flaying.

[Nymeria's]

I'm sick of Roz's boobs. Every fricking episode. Whose girlfriend is she? Dan or David's. Finally, an end to Xaro Xhoan Duck Sauce that I liked. Jaquen and the Other's parade made my day. Thank you all for covering my complaints because I can't begin to speak on how much the HotU irked me. I did like the KL throne room scene. Fuckarys!

[Ghosteline]

Jaqen H'ghar was absolutely incredible. They couldn't have picked a better actor. The only tiny part was when he said "please" to Arya when she had named him to kill himself. A man would never do such a thing. But still, I wish he were a main character, I love him so much! I think I'll write a letter to that actor, telling him what a magnificent job he did. We both should! Do you know where he's from? His accent sounds a tiny bit like Shae's.

It seems you really liked the episode, so good on ya mate :)

Hmmm really interesting theories about the Throne Room scene...

And the actor who played Jaqen H'gar is from Germany I think :)... I saw an interview where he speeks German. Well that german accent works for the role ;)... it wasn't so much the accent I was crazy about, it was more as if the ending of every word seemed to fade away somehow. He was like speaking from his stomach and not from his throat. Anyway... I like all these details :). Yes maybe we really should let him know what an awesome job he did!

All in all yes, I did enjoy it. I mean there were some scenes which fell flat on me but I don't want to whine about it. ..as there were other awesome things I did enjoy :)

[Ghosteline]

Jaqen H'ghar was absolutely incredible. They couldn't have picked a better actor. The only tiny part was when he said "please" to Arya when she had named him to kill himself. A man would never do such a thing.

Ooh... that "please".. hmm.. well actually I had an impression that he said it to play a puppy to Arya (kindly and subtly mocking).

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

The White Walkers looked incredible. If anyone else has seen that show Face Off on SYFY they have some gifted makeup artists but if this walked in the competition would just end and a winner announced or was that all CG

Edited June 5, 2012 by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

[rmholt]

Ooh... that "please".. hmm.. well actually I had an impression that he said it to play a puppy to Arya (kindly and subtly mocking).

I liked it bc Jaqen was totally nonplussed and basically begged her to change her mind. The "please" had the same effect to me, only briefer

[ashagreyjoys]

edit: wait nevermind

Edited June 5, 2012 by ashagreyjoys

[MasterDecoy]

im gonna use my first post to say if that you have only watched the show, robb doing what he is doing is consistent with how he has been protrayed so far in the show. the only few times he hasn't acted rashly is when his mom was right there to tell him what to do and even then. couldn't care less how he is in the books and to anyone watching the show it shouldn't either. the sooner some people realize this, the happier they'll be. this "Robb Stark character assassination" is grossly overblown...

overall, very good episode but obviously guilty of trying to do too much too quickly. and the lack of budget (still an incredibly expensive show to make mind you ~70 million per season) was painfully clear from episode 7 onwards - forgetting blackwater of course. should be better in that regard from now on since each book will be split into two seasons from now on.

[bumurutu]

Anyone else notice that the second white walker in the final scene is wearing armor? It appears to be regular leather armor and not the predator style armor we envision from the books. Also, the second walker has a sword while the first has a spear. I'm not sure but I don't remember the walkers ever having spears in the book, only swords.