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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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Anyone else notice that the second white walker in the closing scene is wearing armor? Looks like leather armor to me.

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Ooh... that "please".. hmm.. well actually I had an impression that he said it to play a puppy to Arya (kindly and subtly mocking).

That's Jaqen being sexy ;-)

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One of the guys at the TwoP forum mentionned that the WW spared Sam just like one spared Will in the prologue of the show: because they "yielded", "surrendered"... well, this is not the way of the books, but could work in the TV show.

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Non-reader here with a few observations. Now, I don't mind a spoiler or two and I guess that's why I'm on this thread. I think hearing the back stories from book readers is really interesting and fills in many gaps - even though most of those observations are rants (I totally get it). So here's where I am:

After Season 1, I'm thinking - great, the Starks are going to King's Landing and are going to get some revenge - obvious story line. Also - WTF -are those real dragons? Yeah, that chick is going to burn some shit down. Also, why is the coolest Stark (or non-Stark), Jon Snow going to the wall? Must be pretty pivotal. Also, I can't wait for Joffrey and his Mom, Uncle/Dad is get theirs. The Imp is probably the best character on this show.

Season 2 has me thinking - Okay, how far does this poor woman have to roam the desert with these dragons? She's really going to burn shit down now, because really, how are you going to stop a dragon? Robb Stark is on a mission - wait a minute, who's this chick and why is his quest completely derailed by her? WTF - they're married - why? Arya is going to be pretty badass someday and may be the one that avenges her father. Why hasn't Joffery and his mom been killed yet? It's going to be awesome when the Lannisters get theirs. Stannis is pretty cool but that witch he's with will be his demise. I don't really seeing this guy going anywhere. How many more characters / families / tribes / magical beings can they introduce this year? Who sacked Winterfell? And are they going to be sorry when the Starks get their shit together.

This last episode was great - in the context of the others. I also know that is TV Land, the second to the last episode is always the best and the finale is supposed to set up the next season. So, I guess Jon Snow will infiltrate the wildlings and destroy them from the inside. Unlike others, I wasn't confused about his battle with the other "crow." I thought they explained that earlier. Arya is on a quest to find her family and the face changer was pretty cool. Robb Stark probably f'd up pretty good for some unknown reason - I didn't like that whole marriage scene - didn't make sense to me but maybe they have to show the betrayal so that they can kill him off next year. The Lannisters are still in power and Imp got screwed. I'm guessing we're not going to see the end of him. Dany's scene at the magician's tower seemed a little weak and rushed. As mentioned several times, it's probably much better in the book but I think I got the point with the little foreshadowing they did include. She probably will be queen soon? Lastly, the White Walkers seem pretty unstoppable (except maybe for dragons? - hoping). Nice way to end the season.

When I read through this thread and tried to fill in the gaps through character wiki sites, I leave very confused. So Arya never avenges her father's death but rather will always be on the run and in hiding, eventually moving away from the kindoms? Tyrion will never be King and also is always on the run, leaving his family behind? Dany continues to unsuccessfully try to raise armies and never really becomes the queen? The Starks will basically be no more? The Lannisters are always in power? It seems that the most important characters haven't even been introduced and all of the people we've been watching never amount to anything and will constantly be in hiding. I hope this is not the case and next season doesn't disappoint but if it dragged out like this season did, I may be done.

Very spoilery reply from a book reader....

Some explanations.

The Starks are not no more. Aside from Robb and Ned all of the Starks remain active in the story. Including undead Catlyen who was revived by Thoros of Mir who is another Red priest similar to Melissandre. ( I guess that the Red God gives his priests one dark power, for Mel its shadow babies and for Thoros he can revive the dead, but I think only one dead at a time since Berric seems to do a trade off with Cat...) Anyway Cat is running around with Thoros (who has been mentioned in the show and will be introduced next year) and the Brotherhood Without Banners who have also been mentioned and will be introduced. Rickon is off in Skagos and Davos is off to retrieve him. Bran is in the North but is learning to travel through the Weirwoods. Littlefinger has revealed his plan to return Sansa from hiding to make her claim as the heir of Winterfell since Arya is MIA and peeps think Bran and Rickon are dead. Arya is training with the faceless men. While she is supposed to forget herself completely there are suggestions that she is retaining pieces of her identity such as hiding needle for later use. My guess with Arya is that her desire to get home and try to find Jon or Sansa while begin her plans for vengance will interrupt her faceless men training. She will learn enough to be a competent assassian but leave early and join up with Nymeria to wreck havoc on Westeros. Jon is mostly dead. And any fan of the Princess Bride knows that mostly dead is partly alive. Like all the Stark kids (except Sansa due to the loss of Lady) Jon is a Warg. The end of Dance with Dragons suggests that Jon will live inside ghost while he heals or is frozen for revival. Tyrion is in Mereen (I think, I cant ever keep all the Essos cities straight) with Ser Jorah and Barristan. I believe he will reveal himself to Barristan and assisit with the defense plans for the impending attack. Dany is in a bit of a pickle now but I think the show now more than anything has hinted that her eventual path to Westeros will be bringing her to the Wall and Jon Snow who, by the time she gets there, will ber revealed as Azor Ahai. Jon and Dany will fall in love and Jons Targ identity will be revealed and then one of them will die and the other will rule alone ad George gives us all one last 'fuck you, with love'!

Anyway my point is that he spreads the story out rediculously far but there are clear signs that he is pulling it all back together.

Dont give up.

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- - Theon... gets knocked out for laughs? And then... how exactly do those Ironborn go out of the castle? I guess all those northerners waiting outside just let them go, right? While they carry knocked out Theon? IS THAT RIGHT? Why are those Ironborn carrying Theon at all? And then... why is Winterfell burned at all? Who was fighting?

Hi all - first post here.

Robb ordered Roose Bolton to give all surrendering Ironborn free passage - all but Theon. I imagine that offer has been somehow conveyed to them. It would be a nice touch if the bastard of Bolton were to be introduced in S3 with a background of flayed staked Krakens as he obviously betrayed them and butchered them before sacking Winterfell.

Some thoughts on Season 2: I thoroughly disliked the Daenerys storyline post-Drogo. She is drifting aimlessly, with no sense of purpose at all beyond an increasingly vague claim to the Iron Throne. This fits in with the adaptation as such: it is not anchored in the history of ASOIAF. Other than Robert's scene in the crypt of Winterfell all the way back in the pilot the series has given us very little of the backstory that is the true foundation of the events we are witnessing. I realize that putting all visions in the HOTU would have been too expensive, but it need not have been realized visually - why not have voices whispering offscreen about the three heads and the three treasons?

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She also wondered how the dragonfire didn't burn her but did burn Pyat Pree. That kind of niggled at me as well -- I mean, it was between her, but definitely close enough to cause AT LEAST second degree burns. I don't care how "immune" to fire is (which apparently she's not, if I'm not mistaken - her walking into the flames was a "one time deal"). When she confronted Drogo at the pit I don't think she even got scalded -- I wish Martin would make up his mind!

She also didn't understand what Pyat Pree meant about his magic working now that dragons were born.

On the HBO website Dany is described as being impervious to fire ("Daenerys is mourning the death of her husband, Drogo, but has not stopped strategizing her return to the Seven Kingdoms to take back the Iron Throne. Impervious to fire, Dany used the heat of Drogo's funeral pyre to hatch the dragon eggs she was given as a wedding gift, and now considers the three young dragons her children").

Ok, so why am I talking so much about my mother's reactions to the episode, instead of my own? The reason is because I think she represents a viewer with above-average intelligence who is absolutely confused by these scenes which they changed and distorted.

Do you not think that maybe viewers are supposed to be confused? For example, we're not supposed to know what happened to Theon and Winterfell yet (although it seems quite obvious to readers that the Ironborn handed over Theon and then Bolton's men burned the place).

As for the Others... I don't understand the confusion about Sam being spared. The Others do what the Others want. If they want Sam to go back to the Wall, they'll let him go back to the Wall. They're not just mindless killing machines.

Ok...The scene between Stannis and Melisandre was utterly ridiculous. The woman drank POISON and wasn't killed, and she reads her own future in the flames before anyone else's. For Stannis to choke her, and for her to be at his utter mercy, was soooooo unreal. When I say unreal, I literally mean, it couldn't have happened. It did not fit in with either of their characters -- esp Stannis supposedly seeming some bullshit in the flames. That really irked me.

We don't know what happened with Stannis between the end of the Battle of the Blackwater and Davos' rescue -- all we know is that he only saw Melisandre during this time. We also know that this is when he starts to see visions in the fire. So if it "really irked" you here, it should have irked you in the book.

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As for the Others... I don't understand the confusion about Sam being spared. The Others do what the Others want. If they want Sam to go back to the Wall, they'll let him go back to the Wall. They're not just mindless killing machines.

Exactly. Leave someone alive to spread terror...

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What Robb ordered doesnt matter since he ordered it before he knew what was done in the North. Also, the order was completely stupid and nonsensical.

Those are not Bolton men arround Winterfell.

Who do you think they are? The show certainly wants us to think they are Bolton's men.

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I can't believe that it's already over :/ Also, I can't believe how bad season finale was. I expected more, I don't even know why. They've changed the whole season, a lot of stuff doesn't go the way it does in the books. Harrenhall get-away and house of the Undying were a joke. Seriously.

And Tyrion crying because of Shae? Stupid. Really stupid. But I guess that goes with the way that he feels.

And, as far as I understood, Brienne didn't kill anyone until the book 3. Or 4, I can't really remember. And here, she just killed three Stark soliders completely cold blooded.

And why in the seven Hells is Rhaego black haired?!

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Confusing episode as a non-book reader:

- Isn't Margery like, too old for Joffrey, shouldn't she be near Sansa's age?

- How did the Iron Men escape and burn Winterfell if northmen were at its door?

- So the House of the Magi was populated by one guy who slaughtered a whole room of men but dies when his cloak catches a small fire?

- Her dragons can disintegrate chains with magic, okay I can sort of buy that since it's magic.

- Why did the Others not care about Sam?

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Confusing episode as a non-book reader:

- Isn't Margery like, too old for Joffrey, shouldn't she be near Sansa's age?

- How did the Iron Men escape and burn Winterfell if northmen were at its door?

- So the House of the Magi was populated by one guy who slaughtered a whole room of men but dies when his cloak catches a small fire?

- Her dragons can disintegrate chains with magic, okay I can sort of buy that since it's magic.

- Why did the Others not care about Sam?

Yes, Margaery's older than Joffrey but no-one's particularly fussed because the Highgarden(Tyrell)/Lannister alliance is so important.

In the books, it's Roose's bastard from the dreadfort who burns Winterfell so I'm not sure whether that was what the implication was here.

The House of the Undying is also populated by the undying, but we didn't see them. I imagine Pyat Pree's probably got some fire repelling spells up his sleeve, but this is dragon fire, which burns incredibly hot. Trumps his magic, apparently.

I think the chains were Pyat Pree's magic, so when he burned they disintegrated.

Not sure. Probably cos it made for a cool scene to be honest, or maybe they have some sort of Borg ethic where if they don't pose a threat they don't bother. Or maybe he thought one of the wights behind him would sort him out.

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We don't know what happened with Stannis between the end of the Battle of the Blackwater and Davos' rescue -- all we know is that he only saw Melisandre during this time. We also know that this is when he starts to see visions in the fire. So if it "really irked" you here, it should have irked you in the book.

This kind of surprised me there, thought we would be seeing Davos being rescued from floating wreckage by Salladhor Saan, skipping the elaboration in SoS.

I don't know how much they shot in sequence, but Carice van Houten seemed to be given a different demeanor in her last two episodes, for the better.

Same goes for Gemma Whelan in her last episode. Lord knows how they are going to write her next season, if she appears at all , she's not even featured in SoS.

Edited by boojam

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He meant the White Walkers, the Others. Not their zombies.

And they wear loincloths, not armor.

Look at that closing scene again. There are few of them wearing shields, and at the very end, appears one wearing a Stark shield.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'Not their zombies.' There is a difference between the Wildlings and The Others. The Others are zombies. And I was referring to them.

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I don't know if anyone said so already (sorry in advance) but viewer numbers for this episode were very high: 4,200

Edited by FrozenFire3

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Look at that closing scene again. There are few of them wearing shields, and at the very end, appears one wearing a Stark shield.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'Not their zombies.' There is a difference between the Wildlings and The Others. The Others are zombies. And I was referring to them.

No, they aren't. The wights are thralls of the Others, they're magically controlled dead bodies. The Others are living beings, probably completely different species that humans.

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I can't believe that it's already over :/ Also, I can't believe how bad season finale was. I expected more, I don't even know why. They've changed the whole season, a lot of stuff doesn't go the way it does in the books. Harrenhall get-away and house of the Undying were a joke. Seriously.

And Tyrion crying because of Shae? Stupid. Really stupid. But I guess that goes with the way that he feels.

And, as far as I understood, Brienne didn't kill anyone until the book 3. Or 4, I can't really remember. And here, she just killed three Stark soliders completely cold blooded.

And why in the seven Hells is Rhaego black haired?!

Season 1 was pretty similar to the book, in season 2 they decided to alter a lot of things (quite imposrtant things)... so I hope they won't start changing the whole story line just like they did with True Blood. That would be a pity...

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The Others are zombies.

Really needs pinning in bold at the top of all these discussions:

The Others also known as the White Walkers: strange race of ice creatures who have fallen into myth in Westeros - it is of these that GRRM said "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

Wights: People who have died at the hands of, or possibly in proximity to, an Other or White Walker. They are re-animated corpses who appear to act at the Others behest, or sometimes just killing anything living.

It is very confusing, firstly because they both have blue eyes and secondly because, well, wights and white walkers sound like they should be the same thing. I don't really understand the need to name them in such a confusing way to be honest.

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No, they aren't. The wights are thralls of the Others, they're magically controlled dead bodies. The Others are living beings, probably completely different species that humans.

Now I'm completely lost.

In the last scene, there is a dude on a horse, and an army behind him. They have blue eyes, and they had spears and swords made of ice. So, aren't they Others?

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