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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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Just a quick word of defense for the Dany story-line (and I have to reiterate that I really disliked her story line this season): in the book Dany has very very little time in Clash of Kings. Dany has FIVE whole chapters (conversely, Tyrion has fifteem). Therefore, the series had very, very little to go on.

I must also repeat something that gets lost on people: in the books, Martin only has to deal with his own tastes and story-constraints in dealing with writing the books; "Dany" has no say in what happens to her. But in the show there is an actress as Dany and her- and her agents and publicists - demand screen time and explinationsa s to why she cannot be in more episodes. Same is true for Jaime, Cat, etc etc etc. The creators have to do something or the major cast members will be problematic and may not return (this has already happened with at least one minor character- Gregor).

I bring this up because, well, Dany has to do something. Now, my gripe is that what they actually did was empty calories; it took up time and space but gave the viewer nothing back in return. I do not care at all, not even a little bit about a foolish power-grab in Qarth; don't care about the King, how he came from nothing nor the writer's incessent need to mention that every time the guy opens his mouth- a clear sign that the writers have nothing to say. I don't care about a vault, I don't care about the mercahnts who won't help Dany and I don't care about the politics that have no effect (zero, ziltch, nada) on the story as a whole.

Dany's story line would have been perfect had the producers took the approach that "less is more." JUst minimize her and present the House of the Undying as a great mystery to all (less is more); nobody is certain what happens there etc. But they have become restless recently etc etc etc. Prye convinces Dany that he will help her by giving her the secrets of the House- always take the last door on the left etc etc etc. Maybe put something in there where Dany becomes separated from Drogon if you want to seal the kidnapping angle. Make it a two-part episode and you're done. No King of Qarth, no senseless murder scenes (seriously, how easy is it to kill a council of 13?); no kidnapping. Just a tighter, leaner story.

This is why when people say "BAH PURISTS SUCK!!!!!" Might as well say nothing at all. Its not "puristy" I'm after; its a soilid story. Some of my favorite scenes have been ones never touched upon in the books (ie: Cersei and Robert; Stannis and Davos discussing Storm's End; obviously Blackwater was reimagined). But when you diverge from the story and fill that time up with a void; with vapid and unimaginative details; when the story tells me a lot about "A" but does it at the expense of "B", "C" and "D"; when you turn a porterhouse steak into hamburger, well... I don't have to jump up and say "Thank you, sir, may I have another.

That's what Dany's story line was; a lot of filler, a lot of fat, a lot of empty calories that did not advance the story but, instead, drew us away from more interesting lands and more interesting times.

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It is very confusing, firstly because they both have blue eyes and secondly because, well, wights and white walkers sound like they should be the same thing. I don't really understand the need to name them in such a confusing way to be honest.

Maybe because there was also a group called the Others in Lost, so GoT couldn't do that anymore ;)

The term white walkers is also from the books. Old Nan calls them that way in a story.

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I think the main problem with this episode, and the season in general, is an innapropriate allocation of clarity, money and importance to certain scenes.

The decisions to focus on some things, rather than others have mostly been bad. For example, I don't know if any non-book reader understood anything with the sacking of winterfell. Two minutes of the iron born surrending themselves, two seconds of seeing the troops destroying Winterfell. I understand Ramsay was not cast, and therefore could not be shown, but SOMETHING.

There was almost no clarification about Jon and QH. The two character's intentions were not clear. Again, two second conversation ''you must do what is right when the time comes, etc". It's not like in the books it was vague; it was VERY clear.

I do understand not including many visions in the house of the undying, because putting them visually would be giving too much away, and people would be confused. This means that the visions they DID show didn't have to be so....long and drawn out. Would have been a lot more dramatic with shorter, faster paced visions; cutting to seeing Dany a huffin and puffin trying to find a way out/way to her dragons.

Robb and Talisa getting married in light of the seven was a major dissapointment, thought perhaps it sets the scene for the northermen to not want to follow Robb anymore. They've met him a lot less likeable in the show; I remember in the books I cried A LOT when he died. Dunno if it will have the same effect now...

The scene with Varys and Ros was kind of long, though from HBO's standpoint maybe they're trying to keep the intrigue of book readers? We do want to see what role Ros will play. This will only work, in my opinion, if she remains clothed for the remainder of the season.

Jaime/Brienne scene was brilliant because it was well acted, but all in all not really relevant to this season. Could have been cut out and shown next season in my opinion.

The last scene dissapointed me the most. A lot could have been cut out, to make it more dramatic. Would have been nice to see reactions also from other men of the night watch as they hear the blasts. On the third blasts everyone shits themselves, we see an army of wights and others. Just to REALLY clarify things, we zoom in to see their blue eyes. All we see are blue eyes, because of the blizzard rampaging all around them. AND THEN THAT'S IT!

The money saved from doing the CGI this season (they could always do it next!) could have bought: Ghost, maybe a bit more in the house of the undying, like blue flowers mayhaps. Could have perhaps also bought a more dramatic face change, though this I think is too much to hope for. Could have actually scene the destruction of Winterfell happening (through summer's pov), which would have clarified things a lot more.

I did really love the Arya/Jaquen scene. I love when she says she needs to find her brother and mother ''and my sister too....I need to find my sister". Teared up a bit. The master Luwin scene with Bran and Rickon were also tearjerking. The scene with Tyrion and Shae was....interesting. I have a feeling that Tyrion doesn't 100% buy the fact that Shae truly loves him. He cries because her response is so perfect....also, where he is money is. Shae's responses and declarations of love to Tyrion remind me a bit of Sansa's automatic, defensive words of priase for Joffrey.

I loved the idea of Xaro ______'s vault being empty. Important lesson to be learned. Interesting, too, since Dany's whole claim to the throne is one empty vault so to speak. Is it just me, or did her whole Khalesar come back from the dead?

I feared that HBO would want to explain what Valor Morghulis is, and I'm happy that we're left not knowing. It was the same way in the books, I remember having the phrase always on the tip of my tongue (just like Arya did) knowing that it meant something profound, but not knowing. Perhaps on this journey Arya undertakes now, she will finally kill someone as we all know she must?

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I loved this episode. So Robb got married by the Seven, It's the first time they've actually said all the names on the show, so they worked in some exposition there. Get over it.

But no one ever prays to the Stranger! His altars are given next to no candles in every sept described in the books (whereas the Mother and the Warrior always have tons, and even the Father and the Crone. But the Stranger?) I always felt like the Stranger was kind of like He Who Shall Not Be Named. **There would definitely not be mention of the Stranger in wedding vows.*** This bothered me much more than the fact that Robb was married before the Seven.

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But no one ever prays to the Stranger! His altars are given next to no candles in every sept described in the books (whereas the Mother and the Warrior always have tons, and even the Father and the Crone. But the Stranger?) I always felt like the Stranger was kind of like He Who Shall Not Be Named. **There would definitely not be mention of the Stranger in wedding vows.*** This bothered me much more than the fact that Robb was married before the Seven.

I think this shows how blind he's become because of Jeyne (Or her name in the series is it Talisa?), strange because I liked her in the books but in the series I think she came across as a manipulative bitch.

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I have watched it a few more times since seeing it live and wow does it get worse with repeated viewings.

Robb's wedding, the White Walker that gets funnier each time you watch, the sacking of WInterfell and the kids escaping from...their allies.

Stannis being turned into a Disney villain is unforgivable. It appears he even has his own generic bad guy music now.

I know, I know, we just need to be happy with what we get and accept it for what it is.

What I wonder is just how far off the map we go as the series continues. Season1 was fairly close to book one, this season...well we know how that went. Hopefully next season will be more reasonable as they don't have as much ground to cover and don't have to put half the budget into one episode.

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Did anyone else love how the Other/White Walker looked at Sam?

WW: Who the devil are you?

Sam: *whimper*

WW: Gross, you're not even worth the crust off my ice.

Also, 100th post, yay.

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I didn't get a lot of things...

Why introducing Dontos at all and then making him disappear?

Why making Littlefinger noticing that Arya was at Harrenhal? Why? What was the point?

Why making Theon to kill the two innocent children? Robb and Cat didn't notice so...ehhh...It really took away from them, would have make Jamie's release more logical.

The more I think of a lot of things the more I hate this episode. My first true disappointment with the show.

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I didn't get a lot of things...

Why introducing Dontos at all and then making him disappear?

Why making Littlefinger noticing that Arya was at Harrenhal? Why? What was the point?

Why making Theon to kill the two innocent children? Robb and Cat didn't notice so...ehhh...It really took away from them, would have make Jamie's release more logical.

The more I think of a lot of things the more I hate this episode. My first true disappointment with the show.

Dontos still can be used in the next season. LF did get rid of the buffer between he and Sansa from her knowledge, but Dontos can still be used in the same capacity to pass messages so that LF is not seen again with her.

LF has the knowledge of Arya and, I'm assuming, at this point still believes she is there. His plan might be now to get someone there to pick her up to find out she has left.

Theon killing the kids was used to prove to the people of WF that he did have the spine to act on his words - it wasn't just for the storyline of the other characters.

Now, do I agree with those decisions? the Dontos/LF one - no, I think that is a greatly missed opportunity to have LF come out of no where when she does escape. If, of course, they have her escape the same way.

The LF/Tywin/Arya triangle...yeah, now, not really sure what it does except alllow LF to say he knows she is alive. Er, was alive. Actually, at this point, it doesn't do anything since he could have just as easily said before "I can get your daughter" to Cat as he can now.

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Did anyone else love how the Other/White Walker looked at Sam?

WW: Who the devil are you?

Sam: *whimper*

WW: Gross, you're not even worth the crust off my ice.

Also, 100th post, yay.

This was my biggest criticism, either have Sam go unnotice or have him use the Dragon glass and kill the other. Just having him sat there whimpering was stupid, the others are supposed to be heartless bastards

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Perhaps this has been said? I wanted to read all 18 pages of comments, but alas, I do have to do work while at work :)

The HOTU.. I think it was brilliant! Why? Because instead of giving book readers prophecies and visions we already knew about and hashed out to death, they gave us something new to ponder. Like bonus material. Dany walking into a destroyed red keep and a throne room covered in SNOW? THEN walking out onto the wall to meet her deceased husband? So much to ponder.

Sure they could have given what was described in the book, but like I said, book readers already hashed out those prophecies to death. So thank you HBO for giving us more material to ponder. I feel like it was a bonus.

Edited by True Northerner

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Confusing episode as a non-book reader:

- Isn't Margery like, too old for Joffrey, shouldn't she be near Sansa's age?

- How did the Iron Men escape and burn Winterfell if northmen were at its door?

- So the House of the Magi was populated by one guy who slaughtered a whole room of men but dies when his cloak catches a small fire?

- Her dragons can disintegrate chains with magic, okay I can sort of buy that since it's magic.

- Why did the Others not care about Sam?

Margery is older, but... well... just wait until ...

It is pretty consistent with many "sorcerer" archetypes that they are devastatingly powerful when allowed to prepare and launch their attack, but painfully weak when attacked while unprepared. I would have preffered they had the warlocks age the dragons a bit to make the fire look a bit more proportional to their size, As others said, the chains (and the whole power of the house) seemed to be a part of PP, when he dies, so did it.

We don't know what the Other thought about Sam, maybe he was more focused on their current mission (kill the intruders at the fist), maybe his cry was an order for some wights to go eat him, maybe the obsidian was sensed and he decided to leave well enough alone (since Sam wasn't attacking him with it). We know Sam is going to involved in the rout from the Fist to Craster's next season, so he's going to be running from them in a moment anyway.

As for confusing my non-readers, I'm happy GOT doesn't assume we (the audience) are all boobs and can think for ourselves. Most TV assumes we are idiots and beats you over the head with any plot point. Both of my non-book watchers understood the Quorin/Jon scene perfectly. Though one of them saw it coming when Quorin pushed him down the hill.

Now I'm completely lost.

In the last scene, there is a dude on a horse, and an army behind him. They have blue eyes, and they had spears and swords made of ice. So, aren't they Others?

Others are the intelligent, thinking beings who are the real danger. They are the ones who threatened the Rangers in Ep 1.1, they are the ones who Craster deals with. They are the ones you saw on the horses doing things (maybe some were walking too, it was a wide shot). Wights (in modern fantasy this refers to a higher grade of zombie) are the dead people they reanimate. They both have the blue eyes.

LF has the knowledge of Arya and, I'm assuming, at this point still believes she is there. His plan might be now to get someone there to pick her up to find out she has left.

Theon killing the kids was used to prove to the people of WF that he did have the spine to act on his words - it wasn't just for the storyline of the other characters.

The LF/Tywin/Arya triangle...yeah, now, not really sure what it does except alllow LF to say he knows she is alive. Er, was alive. Actually, at this point, it doesn't do anything since he could have just as easily said before "I can get your daughter" to Cat as he can now.

This is my complaint. Arya is a VERY valuable peice in the Game of Thrones. Once LF found out Tywin did not know who he had, I can't fathom him not making some sort of plan to get control of her before he left Harrenhall. It's like seeing a $100 bill across the street and assuming it will still be there when you walk back. It seems to me like sloppy writing, where they though "It would be great to add some drama to scene with Tywin and LF and have him notice Arya", but never then went forward and altered the outline for future episodes to deal with it.

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Very spoilery reply from a book reader....

Anyway my point is that he spreads the story out rediculously far but there are clear signs that he is pulling it all back together.

Dont give up.

Thanks much. I'm glad that things eventually get brought back together. Sometimes it seems to ramble a bit - especially for a tv viewer. That combo of 100's of characters, fantasy, and making up magical powers tend to lose your average HBO audience. Thanks again.

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Where was Hodor's Bran Bjorn? lol

Everyone is so dissapointed, but I am happy with the episode. The series standing alone, it was a fantastic season. Reeds cast for next season!!!!!!!!!! WHoo hoooo!!!

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ummmm..... Did i hear that Hodor said "my lord" just when they left Luwin at the weirwood? He said it softly but i still heard it.

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ummmm..... Did i hear that Hodor said "my lord" just when they left Luwin at the weirwood? He said it softly but i still heard it.

I just rewatched that scene. I heard him say "Hodor".

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Wight captain? wtf, man.

It IS an Other. White Walker. Whatever, you name it. But no, it is not a wight.

Doing a rereading and discovered that in addition to all the other things the Others are also a mist. As Jaime said about the shadow baby, how to you fight a [mist]

Hoping to see Ice SPiders before I die.

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