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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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Not quite as epic as Blackwater, but still good.

[email protected] yapping about killing everyone and being famous *whack* "Let's go home".

Daenerys ruled this episode.I think I prefer TV Daenerys over book Daenerys. Same goes for Jon Snow.

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BTW...(without any DWD spoilers please) why is Sam still alive at the end of this episode ? I mean I know he has a role in future books but they could have done this differently. The Others would not let anyone live...so why Sam ?

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This was my biggest criticism, either have Sam go unnotice or have him use the Dragon glass and kill the other. Just having him sat there whimpering was stupid, the others are supposed to be heartless bastards

Who knows, mayhaps George let the producers in on some of his secrets and that the 'Others' are the 'Good guys'. See what I did thar? I pulled a LOST reference. Har!

I'll let myself out.

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When she faced Drogon in the arena it is said that her hair burned down, but she was fine

I'm pretty sure her hands are burned as well:

page 929, aDWD (my copy):

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing"

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If Osha and Ygritte are both wildings, why is Osha so fucking weird all teh time?

I realized a few episodes I watch this because some of teh actors are amazing, even tho the adaptation is more crap than gold.

I also realized I skipped quite a few scenes this season...like, every sex scene in the last 3 episodes, plus Robb's wedding.

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I really liked most of it. I agree with most of the criticisms people have laid forth, but I still got a good feeling - especially concerning all things Winterfell. The only thing I didn't like was the appearance of the White Walker, not very elegant.

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I'm pretty sure her hands are burned as well:

page 929, aDWD (my copy):

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing"

Okay. I remember now, too. My mistake. :) Now I don't really get the point of the pyre scene (except the dragon hatching).

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No problem :)

I'm pretty sure that within the SSM archives GRRM mentions that the Pyre burning was a one-timer and under special circumstances.

But, it is also very possible that Dany may be impervious to 'regular fire', but vulnerable to Dragon's fire.

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I thought this episode was extremely anticlimactic, and arguably the worst of the entire season. A few minor changes here and there snowballed into some very awkward culminations of CoK arcs.

First, Theon. When Theon killed Rodrik, that set problems in motion. Now there was no obvious choice for a leader of the Winterfell liberation force. Then Reek/Ramsay was excluded, meaning there would be no treachery from within. Still, they had Roose discuss sending Ramsay to free Winterfell. Even without Ramsay's deception of Theon and ambush of Rodrik, Ramsay still could have besieged and razed Winterfell. Instead, Theon's own Ironmen knocked him unconscious and dragged him offscreen. Even after Theon was unconscious, there was still a chance for him to regain consciousness during the razing, and perhaps see clues regarding what happened, like Bolton banners, Northern garb, etc. Instead, Bran and company find Winterfell already burned, with no context whatsoever. For all viewers know, the Ironmen were responsible, or maybe a kitchen wench left a kettle over the fire. Even after all that confusion, Luwin had a chance to clarify the situation to Osha, but did not. No one thought to ask the obvious, like "why is Winterfell on fire?"

What was perhaps one of the most sinister moments in CoK (if not ASOIAF) was completely removed from the show, and replaced with awkward confusion. Not only was the moment itself removed, but also any description of that moment was removed. At best, viewers will learn what happened long after the fact, but the moment is gone. Damn shame, because what they did do with Theon's arc was wonderful. It seemed like the show was trying for a cliffhanger, but instead of suspense there was just confusion.

Second, Robb. Wow, what can be said? They completely changed his arc, and not just because they replaced Jeyne Westerling ("Hi, I'm Jeyne of House Westerling") with Talisa ("Hi, I'm from a place not even relevant in the books, and have a backstory that reads like a college application"). Robb hooks up with Jeyne when he is wounded and upset over news about Bran/Rickon, and then marries her for his honor's sake. In short, Robb repeats Ned's mistake of placing his personal honor above his duty to protect his people. On the show, as of now, no one has even heard about Bran/Rickon, and Robb marries Talisa for love. The changes make him less of his father's son (which is a theme throughout the first three books) and more of just a headstrong teenager, in effect removing the tragedy of his character. Plus the show never portrayed Robb as the vulnerable young man thrust into leadership, but as a fearsome warrior king. Robb's whole storyline has become a cliche.

Third, Jon. WTF. Now instead of Jon killing Qhorin (at his command) in order to infiltrate the wildlings, it was just a cold-blooded act of rage. Why the show failed to establish any kind of plan between Jon and Qhorin is absolutely astounding. Qhorin could have even whispered something cryptic to Jon during their fight. Regardless of what happens, Jon's motives in that moment will always have been murderous, not self-sacrificial. How the show will even establish his plan to infiltrate the wildlings - since he has no one with whom to talk, and voiceovers are out of the question - remains an issue.

Fourth, House of the Undying. The scene with Khal Drogo was overdrawn. Really, while season 2 is eviscerating CoK material, it is bringing viewers back to season 1? No Red Wedding, no Rhaegar/Elia ("the dragon has three heads"), no mummer's dragon, no corpse at the prow of a ship, no three fires/mounts/treasons, no goddamn blue flower at the Wall, but a long talk with Drogo. The HOFTU basically lost all its significance on the show, and just became about closure for Dany.

Sorry, but what the hell were the writers smoking?

Oh, but at least we got a long, heartfelt, totally canonical scene with Tyrion and Shae -_-

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BTW...(without any DWD spoilers please) why is Sam still alive at the end of this episode ? I mean I know he has a role in future books but they could have done this differently. The Others would not let anyone live...so why Sam ?

Already answered this, but it's a long thread. We don't know why since we know basically nothing about them. Maybe the howl was an order for some wights to kill him. Maybe they were focused on their current task (getting to the Fist) and couldn't be bothered. Maybe he "sensed" the obsidian that Sam (likely) has and decided that this guy is able to kill me and is cowering and best to leave well enough alone rather than force him into a fight. Maybe he is about to turn and impale him on his spear and he decided to shout, "Who wants bacon?" before he did it. Maybe he has good (but not good enough) insight into humans and sees a craven who is harmless but will perfectly spread the terror of facing his army, thus destroying the morale of his enemies. They are (possibly) completely inhuman creatures, trying to apply our motives to them is not likely to come up with good results.

They do not look like some sort of frozen Yetties like the show is showing them.

Nor do they let anyone go anywhere, except as their own new zombie.

Tell that to Craster.

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Second, Robb. Wow, what can be said? They completely changed his arc, and not just because they replaced Jeyne Westerling ("Hi, I'm Jeyne of House Westerling") with Talisa ("Hi, I'm from a place not even relevant in the books, and have a backstory that reads like a college application"). Robb hooks up with Jeyne when he is wounded and upset over news about Bran/Rickon, and then marries her for his honor's sake. In short, Robb repeats Ned's mistake of placing his personal honor above his duty to protect his people. On the show, as of now, no one has even heard about Bran/Rickon, and Robb marries Talisa for love. The changes make him less of his father's son (which is a theme throughout the first three books) and more of just a headstrong teenager, in effect removing the tragedy of his character. Plus the show never portrayed Robb as the vulnerable young man thrust into leadership, but as a fearsome warrior king. Robb's whole storyline has become a cliche.

That's a good point. IIRC, Cat mentions on several occasions that 'Robb is so much like his father'. In the show, on the other hand, he is nothing like Ned (in my opinion), which is disappointing for the reason you mentioned: his likeness to Ned's character is a theme throughout the first three books

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I'm pretty sure her hands are burned as well:

page 929, aDWD (my copy):

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing"

Her hands weren't burned by fire -- she was burned by the spear that had started to melt within Drogon. :)

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Her hands weren't burned by fire -- she was burned by the spear that had started to melt within Drogon. :)

Now I'm confused..... if she is impervious to fire then 'things that have been caught on fire' shouldn't burn her either.... But, on the other hand, if she is is not impervious to fire, then being burned by the whip she was holding would make sense....

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Now I'm confused..... if she is impervious to fire then 'things that have been caught on fire' shouldn't burn her either.... But, on the other hand, if she is is not impervious to fire, then being burned by the whip she was holding would make sense....

Things caught on fire =/= things that are boiled. And it was not a whip; it was a melting spear.

I don't think she's immune to fire in the books, but as the HBO site have described her as being "impervious to fire", I think it's pretty clear that she's immune to fire within the tv universe.

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I thought this episode was extremely anticlimactic, and arguably the worst of the entire season. A few minor changes here and there snowballed into some very awkward culminations of CoK arcs.

First, Theon. When Theon killed Rodrik, that set problems in motion. Now there was no obvious choice for a leader of the Winterfell liberation force. Then Reek/Ramsay was excluded, meaning there would be no treachery from within. Still, they had Roose discuss sending Ramsay to free Winterfell. Even without Ramsay's deception of Theon and ambush of Rodrik, Ramsay still could have besieged and razed Winterfell. Instead, Theon's own Ironmen knocked him unconscious and dragged him offscreen. Even after Theon was unconscious, there was still a chance for him to regain consciousness during the razing, and perhaps see clues regarding what happened, like Bolton banners, Northern garb, etc. Instead, Bran and company find Winterfell already burned, with no context whatsoever. For all viewers know, the Ironmen were responsible, or maybe a kitchen wench left a kettle over the fire. Even after all that confusion, Luwin had a chance to clarify the situation to Osha, but did not. No one thought to ask the obvious, like "why is Winterfell on fire?"

What was perhaps one of the most sinister moments in CoK (if not ASOIAF) was completely removed from the show, and replaced with awkward confusion. Not only was the moment itself removed, but also any description of that moment was removed. At best, viewers will learn what happened long after the fact, but the moment is gone. Damn shame, because what they did do with Theon's arc was wonderful. It seemed like the show was trying for a cliffhanger, but instead of suspense there was just confusion.

Sorry, but what the hell were the writers smoking?

Given how little screentime was actually given Roose and the fact they wanted to spend so much time with Arya and Tywin at Harrenhal it would have made a heck of lot more sense to have Roose offscreen for all of Season 2. Instead cast Ramsey Snow. Roose could have been referred to by Robb as leading his armies in the East while Ramsey and a small contingent of his men are brought to Winterfell as prisoners by Ser Roderick Cassell for crimes committed against Lady Hornwood (all offscreen). Luwin could suggest imprisonment for Ramsey until Robb returns North as he is Roose's only remaining son and Roose's forces are critical to the war effort.

For simplicity, the Reek subplot can be dropped, but Ramsey and his men could then be freed by Theon when he seizes Winterfell. Everything plays out in pretty much the same way only Ramsey nudging Theon along the dark path.

The final episode ends with Ramsey and his men turning on Theon following Theon's big speech, killing the Iron islanders and capturing Theon. Ramsey stabs Luwin and announces they are going to massacre the remaining inhabitants at Winterfell and burn it to the ground to remove any evidence of his role. They will then rejoin the Northern forces outside the wall. We now have motivation for Luwin to suggest Bran and Rickon head to the wall and explanation for the burning of Winterfell.

This hints at the duplicity of the Boltons but doesn't specifically give away Roose's future plans.

Its simplier, more coherent, and more closely aligned to the book.

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Qharin's speech to John in Ep 8

QH: Mance is gonna march on The Wall, and when he does, one brother inside is gonna be worth a 1000 against him.

JS: They'll never trust me!

QH: They might, if you do what needs to be done.

JS: What?

QH: Rant about John being a traitor

Seems pretty obvious to me.

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Yeah, re: Jon killing the Halfhand:

I've asked several non-book readers I know, all of whom picked up what was going on there. Would it have been nice to get the conversation between Jon and Qhorin? You bet. But Halfhand says some stuff to Jon (see: the post directly above), and then does a total 180, and starts loudly yelling at Jon. I thought it was pretty obvious what he was trying to do. If anything, it makes Jon look like an idiot for not picking up on it sooner. None the less, it helps externalize Jon's conflict about keeping his vows later on, when he comes to relate to Mance and the Wildlings, by making it more his choice and less a direct order from Qhorin.

The Halfhand knew what he was doing, and all the Unsullied I know managed to get it just fine.

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BTW...(without any DWD spoilers please) why is Sam still alive at the end of this episode ? I mean I know he has a role in future books but they could have done this differently. The Others would not let anyone live...so why Sam ?

I sure dont know but maybe they were programmed to go after the Fist?

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I'm pretty sure her hands are burned as well:

page 929, aDWD (my copy):

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing"

This was debated recently. She burned her hands pulling a boar spear out of Drogon. Those have wooden handles. Now, the tip was red hot, melting point of iron. thousands of degreesF. Wood burns at 450F BUt 3rd degree burns occur at about 140 degrees F. So the spear handle is somewhere between 0 and 450. If she is normal, it is well below ignition, because the burns are second-degree superficial. So it is only 120 or so. So either she is heat resistant or she got damn lucky with her timing. One of the spears did burst into flames.

Marie

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People can nitpick, but like the guy above said, there are definitely clues that the Halfhand sacrificed himself. The conversation above is a giveaway, plus why would he use his final words ("we are the watchers on the wall") to emphasis to Jon his oath rather than, since he was apparently in a blind rage, "you bastard turncloak".

The sack of Winterfell is just a mystery. People don't need everything tied up for them right away. The unsullied saw the Ironborn "leave to go home", they knew that Bolton said that they would be spared, they knew the Ironborn were going to hand over Theon, so it's a mystery why Winterfell is sacked. Just a mystery...a cliffhanger. Luwin was bleeding from the gut and crawled to safety, it's possible he didn't know either.

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