Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

Recommended Posts

So, here we go in order of appearance:

The opening scene was nicely done. Tyrion's awakening, still hearing the screams and seeing the fire... and than something alsmost as awful - maester Pycelle's smile. It is a new day. a new hand and a totally new situation.

The horse shitting was a proper introduction for the proclaiming of the new "heroes of the day". The Tyrells are nailing it and Sansa's smile was priceless. Still don't get why the've cast Dontos, now that we already know who the "secret" helper of Sansa is. But I guess everything LF does, happens for a reason. So we'll just have to wait and see the point of his early revelation.

Soooo, Ros serves some purpose... Not sure what to say about that. If the writers have included her in the final episode and wasted some of their precious time for her, I guess she has some important part to play as a spy for Varys. Either that, or the show just wants to ensure us that Varys is in fact an eunuch.

The Brienne/Jaime part was there just to remind us, that they still exist - the weird lady knight and the man without honour. Those two have great chemistry, so I don't mind the screentime the show makers spent on them.

Well, here's my first minor complaint. As a fresh Stannis fan, I cheered his heroic appearance in the previous episode. But here, him choking Mel, admitting that he killed his brother with a shadow baby (does he even know about this in the book?), complaining about the Red God and right after that suddenly seeing sth in the flames... Seems a bit weird to me. And was that some kind of foreshadowing, about Mel telling him that he will betray everyone and everything? Who is he, the NK?

I liked Theon's scene in the context of the show. Alfie did a great job and didn't make me hate the character less, than I do in the books. Liked the conversation with him and Lewin and he has said it straight - there is no turning back, he went too far already. And the moment with his speech kind of preserved the atmosphere of the books and reminded me again why I like Martin's world so much. In a standard good-bad-guy story, we will see a man give a heroic speech, making his men want to die in a battle for glory. But in GoT... nope! The guy gives a speech only to get hit on the head and betrayed by his own men. Now that's a good story.

I guess the Catelyn/Robb and the Robb/Talissa (don't care how it is spelled) scenes were a necessity to close up Robb's story in season two and to set up the future events that will be of great importance. Here is of course the question abot Bran and Rickon's death. Why haven't they been used as a catalyst for the release of Jaime and the wedding of Robb? That would have been more plausible and wouldn't have made Catelyn and Robb look like complete idiots. The Jeyne/Talissa thing is also a black spot for me, but I hope we will get some good explanation later as the story goes on. I (still) stay optimistic on this one.

Arya's scene was solid. Liked it although Jaquen's question if she would go with him, seemed a bit strange. I hope we get to see him later with his pretty face because the second dude was scary.

Bran and Rickon's scenes were heartbreaking. I wept a tear there, I admit. Good to see at least some direwolves. This is an evidence that all the direwolves did not just magically disappear (perhaps only those beyond the Wall).

And here we come to THE scene that we all have waited for (at least I did) for the whole season. The HoU-scene in the books is the reason for half the topics in this forum. I was eager to see how D & D will handle this. My expectations were pretty low but I hoped. And the result is .... somehow not surprising. It was kind of a let-down for the book-reader in me. But on the other hand, hey, we can speculate on the TV version as well. And there are some things to speculate on (but in another thread, I know). I knew the writers had two options - either to skip the scene completely (the spoilers are too many and too obvious), or to present entirely new visions, but still related to future events (as they did). I'm pretty sure those are not just some random visions - the show is way better than that. A minor nitpick though: Dany is supposed not to be fireproof in the books. Did the show makers decided to change that? Why on earth would they do that?

I have several posts about the mishandled depiction of Jon Snow in the TV show. I definitely don't like what D & D made of him in the second season, but in episode 8 Qhorin makes very clear his intention about inflitrating Jon into the wildlings as a double-agent. I just hope the non-book readers remembered that. And I will be probably the 999th person to ask that but: Where the hell is Ghost? Is he the worst direwolf ever or what?

The people who bet on the second season's ending with the 3 hornblasts are probably happy. It was a creepy scene and I got goosebumps when I heared that WW screaming (or whatever he was doing). I got some weird feeling about the way they've presented the WWs. They seem more humanoid as I have pictured them - like humans, whose spirit has been taken away or something (Night's King, anyone?). Why did the WW look at Sam and did nothing? Perhaps it has something to do with Coldhands, or who knows. I'm sure that there is some explanation, so I won't be in hurry to criticize. The final look over the army of wights was creepy as hell.

Overall I liked it and look forward for the next season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some of my thoughts on the episode, in no particular order :cool4:

I pictured the Others as a lot more elegant, but the sword it was holding was fantastic. I am really glad it was white because all of the other times they have shown "others" they seem black, hairy and ape-like, so I'm very happy that it was the ghostly book style.

But why does it SEE Sam and not care? That seemed wrong.

LOVED Sansa's reaction! Especially because we can't read her thoughts like in the books.

Tyrion could have been uglier, but tv Tyrion has always been the prettied up version of book Tyrion anyways lol.

House of the Undying was way different, but cool I guess. Liked "vision" of destroyed Red Keep. I really liked putting Doreah in bed with (unspellable-name-without-my-book) and putting them in the empty safe. Bad a$$ moment for Dany.

I felt like Luwin's death was kinda anti-climactic (side note: did he want to be killed without milk of the poppy in front of the Heart Tree so that he could be a blood sacrifice to the old Gods...? Thoughts?) but I still got a little choked up :frown5:

Theon scene was hilarious...'nough said...

Still don't like the way they portrayed both Jon/Qhorin and Robb :bang:

But as an episode, 10/10 all the way!!!

I think the "Other" ignored Sam for the same reason they let Will go at the beginning of season 1. Cinimatically I think it works. Leaving someone to tell the story and spread the fear. I agree as well. The best Episode yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sure dont know but maybe they were programmed to go after the Fist?

They Let Will live in s01e01, why not Sam in this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Margaery's older than Joffrey but no-one's particularly fussed because the Highgarden(Tyrell)/Lannister alliance is so important.

In the books, it's Roose's bastard from the dreadfort who burns Winterfell so I'm not sure whether that was what the implication was here.

The House of the Undying is also populated by the undying, but we didn't see them. I imagine Pyat Pree's probably got some fire repelling spells up his sleeve, but this is dragon fire, which burns incredibly hot. Trumps his magic, apparently.

I think the chains were Pyat Pree's magic, so when he burned they disintegrated.

Not sure. Probably cos it made for a cool scene to be honest, or maybe they have some sort of Borg ethic where if they don't pose a threat they don't bother. Or maybe he thought one of the wights behind him would sort him out.

Thanks! The chain one makes a lot of sense, didn't think about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Qharin's speech to John in Ep 8

QH: Mance is gonna march on The Wall, and when he does, one brother inside is gonna be worth a 1000 against him.

JS: They'll never trust me!

QH: They might, if you do what needs to be done.

JS: What?

QH: Rant about John being a traitor

Seems pretty obvious to me.

agreed, no rocket science here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall the episode was good IMHO. but the episode was not a finale. I would have prefred to have had the blackwater as the Finale and this as the penultamate episode.

The two disappointments for me were; the others and wights. They were just lame and would not have walked past Sam after seeing him.

My second was the house of the undying. I could forgive Blackwater not living up to my multi-billion dollar imagination, but their was nothing in there. My favourtie line was always "go right never go left alwasy go up but never go down" becuase it made the visions she could see on the left a temptaion. Also she sees things which she doesn't understand like the red wedding, which I dont think would spoil it for those who have not read the book. As well as her being able to see her brother for the first time ect. Also I would have loved a scence where she buns down the building and walks out of the fire again.

Although i have these gripes i did enjoy the fact that she locks up Xaro Daxos (sp?) in the vault, and that his welth was an illusion and a trick. Though i must ask how will they bring him back in a coulpe of seaons time. I did not like the idea of her hand maiden betraying her.

I did miss Semly coming at the end to help her but this could wait until the next season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was debated recently. She burned her hands pulling a boar spear out of Drogon. Those have wooden handles. Now, the tip was red hot, melting point of iron. thousands of degreesF. Wood burns at 450F BUt 3rd degree burns occur at about 140 degrees F. So the spear handle is somewhere between 0 and 450. If she is normal, it is well below ignition, because the burns are second-degree superficial. So it is only 120 or so. So either she is heat resistant or she got damn lucky with her timing. One of the spears did burst into flames.

Marie

Thanks for clearing that up Marie!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of disappointed how Stannis' character has been all over the place this last series, but hopefully the future episodes will help clear up what kind of man and ruler Stannis is/would be.

I feel that most non-book readers only like the fact that he fought (bravely) against the Lannisters, but there have been hardly any moments that define his character as a just man who believes in ruling with an iron fist ("laws should be made of iron, not of pudding") and ultimately, a man who does not want the crown (unlike every other usurper in Westeros right now), but rather sees that the crown is his by rights and because of his belief of the importance of law to a society, demands that the law be upheld absolutely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Davos defines Stannis' character as a just man who believes in ruling with an iron fist. After all he saved Stannis and he still took his fingertips off. Of course that was before Melissandre.He gets easily manipulted by a fire priestess to do the most unspeakable of deeds to get the crown. I think they have him pretty spot on. He is a man that has foresaken any honor in his quest for the crown. He will lead any number of men to their deaths if he can see any way for it to propel him to the crown. So I think the show has shown what kind of ruler Stannis would be. It really is the same guy from the books even though the story has changed. His characters essence has been rock solid. Really what they have done with the show is everything that was suggested in the books they have visualized for us. I'm sorry if you believed the rumors weren't true that Stannis was bedding and being ruled by the Fire Priestess. Don't worry I'm sure a few more seasons and they will show how he bullies the Nightswatch to try and give him a seat in the North as well as rope in an army.

Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Varys and Ros, let me explain...

With LF being involved in the Sansa business next season, he most likely won't be around the whore houses much, therefore denying HBO the ability to shoe horn awkward sex scenes into the show. Vary's establishing a relationship with her means they have justification to keep showing the soft core sex scenes from the whore house as they can construct a sub plot around them and use it as a back drop without being gregariously obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sure dont know but maybe they were programmed to go after the Fist?

They showed that White Walkers aren't just some mindless creature like you might have thought. The White Walkers are in charge and are leading the wights to battle. The largest battle that has happened north of the wall in a long time. Any other commander and you are screaming to the roof about why would they slow down their initial assault to take care of one cravin guy. Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to take the road less traveled on this episode...I loved it...with a few reservations.

1. Littlefinger offering help to Sansa: This is likely a good thing for non book readers, and clearly LF needed to be handled in a significantly different manner from the books as so much of what he does is offstage. However, I am still not convinced that overtly showing ALL of his machinations is the way to go. I feel that the TV only people are being robbed of that WTF moment when we all realize that LF is an alpha player.

2. Rob and Talisa: I could nitpick the married in the eyes of the seven thing...but I won't...it has already been covered. Maybe there is a reason the writers did this maybe it was just sloppy. If it was sloppy it wouldn't be the first time...right AND left handed Hound in episode 1 anybody? The Talisa not being Jeyne Westerling and hailing from Volantis is far more irritating...that being said I am still not firmly convinced she is not Jeyne. The letter that Tywin had that was likely sent by her would firmly tie her to the Lannisters and the rest could just be an elaborate and well played ruse. This would add some extra spice if, in the end, she actually fell in love with Rob. I have read crazier things here in my years of lurking...and this seems like a D&D thing to do.

3. House of the Undying: Nice imagery, well acted...but pretty weak sauce for the most part. I applaud the writers for attempting to adjust Dany's relatively sparse story in ACoK, but overall I found the story overwrought and not particularly well thought out. A poor plan by Pyat Pree and no real tension or feeling of threat in the climactic scene. That being said I am fine with the visions as they appeared. We were never going to get what we got in the books...either too explicit spoiler wise, or absolutely no setup to give the visions proper and meaningful context. Criticisms aside, the imagery and acting carried the day and made all of this a net plus for me.

4. The sacking of Winterfell: I have no problem with Dagmar and Co. selling out Theon...and I am pretty sure Ramsay and his men did sack Winterfell. I guess we will have to wait and see. There is some detritus floating around in respect to whether Dagmar and Co. survived and who would and would not know what actually happened...but decent writing can clean all that up.

5. Ros and Varys: Great scene...only meaningless if you are a writer on the show and know where this is going. As none of us write for the show the "meaningless" tag is totally invalid. I had my issues with Ros...particularly that abomination of a scene with the lesbian sexplay and LF arbitrarily spilling his guts...but I got over it. I like Ros...I like Esme Bianco as an actress and I don't care if she is a scrappy and a writers pet...she has a place on this show.

6. Shae and Tyrion: I had some early issues with Sibel Kekilli as Shae and I am still not totally sure she is right for the part, but I blame many of her lower moments in the show on poorly written dialogue and not on her. The scene this week was very good though and the writing for her has been much stronger the last two weeks. Peter Dinklage, of course, steals the scene...but that happens with all but the strongest actors on this show.

Lol...I have lots more, but who will actually read a text wall by a first time poster on page twenty something of a three day old thread. Cheers...Btw thanks to all of you for providing me with hours of interesting and insightful postings since I have lurked here. :)

Edited to add this: Heh...guess this is my second post...I didn't think my first post went through. :)

Edited by Vhailorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its likely those ironborn didnt make it out.

Showing Ramsey at the start of Ep1 season 3 turning on the ironborn much to their cries of "but you promised..." is a great way to begin characterizing the Bastard of Bolton, followed by "Burn Winterfell down," as a great way to introduce that all is not well in the North.

At that point there would probably be a scene in which Roose tells Cat and Robb that his bastard has sent word that Theon killed the boys and destroyed Winterfell, and that sets up the rest of the narrative: Cat's forlorn attitude, Robbs sadness that probably makes Talissa fall in love with him for real (assuming there is more to her), and the tragedy that becomes the RW.

Edited by Justin Danford

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The decisions to focus on some things, rather than others have mostly been bad. For example, I don't know if any non-book reader understood anything with the sacking of winterfell. Two minutes of the iron born surrending themselves, two seconds of seeing the troops destroying Winterfell. I understand Ramsay was not cast, and therefore could not be shown, but SOMETHING.through summer's pov), which would have clarified things a lot more.

I feared that HBO would want to explain what Valor Morghulis is, and I'm happy that we're left not knowing. It was the same way in the books, I remember having the phrase always on the tip of my tongue (just like Arya did) knowing that it meant something profound, but not knowing. Perhaps on this journey Arya undertakes now, she will finally kill someone as we all know she must?

I don't think it was just a casting thing. They didn't want you to know. They wanted you to know that Bran and Rickon were safe and that Winterfell had been destroyed. Throwing Ramsey in at the end without having anyway to show his character would have been a fail. And this leaves you with lots of open ended ? that you will have to find out next season. I liked the way they handled J Haggar and Arya this episode as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Brienne /Jaimie scene was huge. It established that Brienne is not Stark, is honorable and is a worthy warrior. Jaimie has never seen her fight. So this gives him an immediate pause as to how his escape is going to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am disappointed in this episode. :( Rob's marriage was something strange. I thought that there would be a moment when she says that she's not from Volantis and her name is Jeyne Westerling. Still I cannot understand why such a departure from the book. And seven gods... when he was so like his father.

Second disappointment was Theon and the fall of Winterfell. Who burned it in the series? Some men from Pyke? No Reeds, no Ramsay, no flayed men.

The scene with Sam was alright though those "men" looked like zombies from some zombie film.

Scene with Dany was bad. I liked Drogo and the baby, but I've waited for more.

Brienne seemed very merciless though in the book she found it difficult to kill.

Where's Dontos?

Ah, and Stannis strangling Melisandre. It's even worse than f```ing her.

But I liked the scene with the Faceless man. (:

The first season was much much better!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Brienne /Jaimie scene was huge. It established that Brienne is not Stark, is honorable and is a worthy warrior. Jaimie has never seen her fight. So this gives him an immediate pause as to how his escape is going to happen.

Not to specifically pick you out for this, but your post reminded me of this. Why is Jaime tied up? (he is in the books here too) If he gets "free" where is he going to go? They both want him to get to King's Landing and the chances of that are improved if they can both fight and defend themselves. This will lead to their fight in the river, but it made no sense to me in the books and seeing it makes it seem even less sensible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×