Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

Recommended Posts

They clearly won't follow Martin's poorly chosen path for book 4. They have said Season 3 is half of book 3, I expect (with a bit of it already having happened) that book 4 will not be given it's own season and we'll see parts of it in season 4 (with the rest of book 3) and season 5 (with book 5)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Ive seen the closing scene of this ep like 4 times and everytime they hear the third horn blast I get chills. Their expressions and reactions are priceless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What...excuse me.... GRRM left what? Where?

<spittake>

Well, having Jaqen just refuse to kill Tywin because Tywin went a bit away from Harehall

My take on the Jaqen thing was that he didnt have TIME to kill Tywin as fast as Arya needed -

We should surely love that. All of us. Thank you for telling "us" what "we" should do. Emotionally.

And here someone tried to tell me that this was the snarkier forum <G>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, according to the show Xaro became king exactly this way, he didn't even have a dozen soldiers that Danny has.

But really it is all nonsense and the nothing that happened in the Show in Qath was logical.

Next season will feature Viserys coming out of the shower and Dany saying I just had a hell of a dream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

re: Straw man

When you want to falsely but convincingly take apart someone's argument you create a straw man (like the fake guys on the wall) and then shoot him down. Meanwhile the real man is going - hey! That aint right!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you automatically become a monarch when you kill the previous one even if your power base consist of a handful of men and you have no other followers? It doesn't work this way.

Actually, as Istakhr pointed out, - yes you do. And yes, thats exactly how it works.

that is why Jaime is on the iron throne. or is it Ned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nahim

First - i did criticize the show - a lot. Not by just stating my feelings about it but by providing arguments why something is badly done.

Which is something youre apparently incapable of.

The strawman argument is not an insult - it is what you are doing.

What exactly am I doing? I have criticized what needed to be criticized (maybe not in this topic), but I have the right to like the show and try to understand why the writers are doing the things they are doing. Also, I have the right to not give a damn that the show is making some big changes. But if I decide to keep watching, I am not going to come here and cry about everything I didn't like.

Also, you didn't see me quoting everyone who said something I disagree with and telling them they are crazy and/or stupid for thinking so.

I am sorry I suggested that you should not watch the show if you don't like it and if it aggravates you. Please do watch and maybe throw a chair into your tv/computer the next time you feel annoyed because D&D have made a not so smart decision or have changed something that you think was not supposed to be changed.

Edited by Nahlim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind folks before shredding this show as if you could do better... Season 3 will have less pages per hour than the first two seasons. This means they can get back on track and possibly start incorporating more history as well as stick more to the book.

All shows have non logical scenes that don't make sense if you stop to think about them. When GoT comes on, I take reality and chuck it out the window for an hour and just enjoy it.

Edited by TyrionTargaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaqenhghar:

err... I dont think you understand what im trying to say here.

Im not saying Daenerys should have had a much lesser role or time aloted.

I am saying that whatever time they gave her it should have been done in much better ways than it was.

I actually understood exactly what you were saying- that Dany’s story-line could have had more or less time provided it worked and that Dany’s story-line did not really work. See, I actually agreed with all that. I just went one step further and said it should have been minimized. Dany has little to do in the book and the show could have kept Dany’s timesmall and increased the time with the other characters.

And if they needed more time for other story lines then they could theoretically reduce Daenerys line and still have it work much better than this utter nonsense we got to see.

Agreed.

You "fans" should stop inventing excuses and telling outright lies about how good the show is... What did come out as "delicious" of this giant failure? The visuals? Something else?

Okay now you are kinda just being intentionally arrogant. Most fans on these boards like the show for man, many reasons. And its actually a pretty well done show given the constraints of the show (5 novels each one well over 500 pages and trying to cram them into 10, one hour episode seasons). That’s no small feat. And so far the show has done very well in making this happen.

Now, we can criticize what they put out there; some has been good, some not so much, some actually bad.

What makes it so worthy of experience? Visuals? The fact that it is changed? Regardless of how good a change is?

No. Of course some changes are going to be really good and others not so much. The point is not to get married to just “what was in the books”; there is no way the show could exist if it had to be 100% (or even 75%) what was in the books. No way; the show would be 25 hours just to get through GoTand cost millions of dollars more than what as been spent so far on 10 episodes.

The fact that if something is changed then its new and you havent seen it before so youll just take anything at all thrown at you...?

I never said that; I never implied that.

JH, I think you are basically just picking a fight with everyone- you call some nitpickers, others purists, and then jump around attacking everyone. Here is my bottom line.

The medium has a limit. Television has a limit. We have to recognize that the show is going to be expressed through this limited medium. In some ways there will be improvements (Robert, Viserys, Arya and Tywin’s scenes; Robb’s actions are better understood) and some are going to be not as good (Dany being the most obvious choice; Roz has been underwhelming). But there are reasons for all this. And you either accept that or you don’t. And if you don’t you are basically denying yourself the chance to enjoy what is there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jaqenhghar I don't even know why I am taking any time to talk to you. You strike me as one of the typical "always right on the forum" types. I'm not saying that you truly are, or that such a type exists, but it does in my head. xD

Have a nice day.

Edited by Nahlim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The facts are that this show seems to be overwhelmingly loved by a huge audience. "How or why am I supposed to enjoy something that is blatantly bad?" your absolutetly entitled to your opinion. Why come to a forum about a show that you think this, is what I would wonder? When Jersey Shore came out my first response wasn't let me go straight to the forum on MTV so I can trash it. I just didn't watch it and in turn didn't go to their forums to discuss it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Picking a fight" has a certain conotation to it that i dont subscribe too. It may look like that to you... but that doesnt mean thats what im doing.

And i really dont appreciate such acusations just because someone has a very one sided perspective.

If it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it swims like a duck... it usually is a duck. If many here feel that you are bein aggressive and picking up a fight, it's either they are all wrong and you should just stop hanging out with us ignorant fools or you might reconsider how you express yourself.

Those are just two of the most common strawman arguments used.

Seriously, it's an ad hominem, not a straw man when one is calling other party with some names and uses that as an argument. Somebody pointed out this already.

Yeah... the reason is that this "adaptation" isnt really an adaptation, but a fan fiction put into the visual medium by several people who are simply incompentent to do it in an actually good way.

When does adaptation change into fan fiction? Who is the judge who gets to decide when there's too much change? You?

Aha... its my fault eh? How or why am i supposed to enjoy something that is blatantly bad?

I've enjoyed a lot of bad things. Granted, I've enjoyd them exactly for this reason, but still, not impossible. Secondly, you don't have to enjoy GoT. Don't. Hate it. Despise it. Bitch about it. Nobody cares.

But as you demand not to be coersed to like the show because it's so "bad", what right do you have to call people liars because they think the show is good and they liked. You're making huge scene about how you should have a RIGHT to hate the show but refuse to grant same right to others. Well, of course we don't need that, we'll like it anyway, but it does seem hypocritical.

nah... look.. you occasionally write a really good post that isnt headache inducing and all but,.... all of this is simply completely illogical statements and strawmans (however unintentional they may be) piled one over another.

You do like the word "straw man", do you?...

Many here have suggested that if something causes you headache and acute anger and stress, you might want to avoid it. Since you clearly are not inclined to take the advice, I'm not going to repeat it. Quite the contrary, I wish you a lot of headache in the future if it means that this great master piece of a TV show continues to do it's wonderful work as it has done so far!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If somebody does not like the show- for whatever reason -that's their choice. Its every person's God given right to like or dislike something. Therefore, I don't really want to "debate" why I like GoT (the show) and why jaqenhghar does not. That's not a very good debate; more like "Shut up"/ "No, you shut up!"

I have posted multiple very, very long posts as to WHY I like certain parts of the show and WHY I do not like other parts. I think that this is very important; anyone can give their opinion, but in order to get people to understand your opinion; in order to get people to appreciate your opinion; in order to get people to listen to, consider and otherwise value your opinion one must give them some evidence that your opinion has weight, that its measured and that it has substance to back it up.

This is the second reason why I will not debate JH. I know he does not like the show, and I know that he likes decrying the show. However, other than bare assertions that X sucks or that Y is terrible, he does not give us much substance, much weight or much reason to keep listening. Therefore, he is BY ALL MEANS entitled to his opinion, but because I believe there is "no there there" I don't think there is much to appreciate about his opinions.

It would be like beating up a strawman.

Get it?

Edited by Rockroi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Dany arc in GoT is going to be something to really show her growth as a ruler. First, she will leave Qarth with no ruler or political system and it will fail and crumble away (first mistake). Then she will leave Astapor with a poorly chosen government of the scribe, wise man, etc that will not work either (second mistake), then she will leave Yunkai untaken and they will want to go to war with her (third mistake).

Not until she goes to Meereen will she realize that if she conquers a city and wants to turn it into a good and prosperous land, she must stay and do it herself, she can't trust other people to run a government the way she thinks it should be run. This would be a good way to simplify her progression as a character for the tv program imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Dany arc in GoT is going to be something to really show her growth as a ruler. First, she will leave Qarth with no ruler or political system and it will fail and crumble away (first mistake). Then she will leave Astapor with a poorly chosen government of the scribe, wise man, etc that will not work either (second mistake), then she will leave Yunkai untaken and they will want to go to war with her (third mistake).

Not until she goes to Meereen will she realize that if she conquers a city and wants to turn it into a good and prosperous land, she must stay and do it herself, she can't trust other people to run a government the way she thinks it should be run. This would be a good way to simplify her progression as a character for the tv program imo.

Versus the books the show simplified everything, the real rulers, The Pureborn are left out, they would still be there.

But from just what is shown on the screen we can deduce the wealthy merchant guilds that provide the infrastructure are still there , just need to replace the 13. The trade that makes Qarth so wealthy is not going away so it is an easy step to suppose that a new ruling class would arise. Qarth is not going to crumble.

If even the Pureborn and Tourmaline Brotherhood and the Ancient Guild of Spicers are never mentioned Qarth will survive with a new reconstituted government. Actually being a Free City, they might have accepted Dany as a queen. I sure would have made a better base for her than Meereen. She could have sailed to Slaver's bay got her army, brought it back and not have to deal with that cesspool of Meereen.

But all this discussion is silly. D and D are not going to dispose of all SoS's drama with the cities of Slavers Bay, that was the main big action in that novel.

What's this about Yunkai being untaken? Yunkai surrendered to Dany in SoS Daenerys IV. She just didn't leave a proper occupying force.

The one thing that becomes glaring in ADwD is that Dany needed a savvy political adviser, before taking Astapor , like Tyrion, who would have anticipated all the troubles she would have by not being Machiavellian enough.

In fact I worry about Season 3 (and looks like season 4) because when Dany goes into 'Alexander the Great' mode there is a very large vista for Dany in SoS , actually bigger than Blackwater. Maybe they can pull off Astapor and at least one of the battles.

Edited by boojam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Dany arc in GoT is going to be something to really show her growth as a ruler. First, she will leave Qarth with no ruler or political system and it will fail and crumble away (first mistake). Then she will leave Astapor with a poorly chosen government of the scribe, wise man, etc that will not work either (second mistake), then she will leave Yunkai untaken and they will want to go to war with her (third mistake).

Not until she goes to Meereen will she realize that if she conquers a city and wants to turn it into a good and prosperous land, she must stay and do it herself, she can't trust other people to run a government the way she thinks it should be run. This would be a good way to simplify her progression as a character for the tv program imo.

I think Dany's big weakness is, as in the book, love. In this case it is love for "her" people. She wont be ready to rule until she gets over that. Meereen wasnt exactly a ringing success.

Right now the arc has her heading away from Meereen, possibly with the killer enteritis.

Marie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Dany's big weakness is, as in the book, love. In this case it is love for "her" people. She wont be ready to rule until she gets over that. Meereen wasnt exactly a ringing success.

Right now the arc has her heading away from Meereen, possibly with the killer enteritis.

Marie

I remember , thinking, in E9 when Cersei told Sansa something like, "To be Queen you have to learn to have the small folk fear you.... that had that been Queen Elisabeth I .... she would have told Sansa "To be Queen you have to learn to have the small folk love you, and the high born fear you."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you think Dany will appoint a new ruler for Qarth?

In the books there was no 'ruler' , except by 'committee' (more than we see on the show).

We never find out if XXD ever really carried through on his plans, maybe the Qartheen would not have accepted them.

I wonder how the hell they work out the deal with the three ships sent her by Illyrio who sent representatives Arstan and Belwas.

Can't quite figure out how E3 and leaving Qarth will work out next season.

Note added: Just going by the narrative on the show, what if one of the 13 died or quit or whatever, who took their place?

Edited by boojam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×