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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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In the books there was no 'ruler' , except by 'committee' (more than we see on the show).

We never find out if XXD ever really carried through on his plans, maybe the Qartheen would not have accepted them.

I wonder how the hell they work out the deal with the three ships sent her by Illyrio who sent representatives Arstan and Belwas.

Can't quite figure out how E3 and leaving Qarth will work out next season.

Note added: Just going by the narrative on the show, what if one of the 13 died or quit or whatever, who took their place?

My totally unsubstantiated guess would be that the remaining members would vote/select/id whomever they thought should take that spot and <poof> that person is in.

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Keep in mind folks before shredding this show as if you could do better... Season 3 will have less pages per hour than the first two seasons. This means they can get back on track and possibly start incorporating more history as well as stick more to the book.

All shows have non logical scenes that don't make sense if you stop to think about them. When GoT comes on, I take reality and chuck it out the window for an hour and just enjoy it.

I'm hoping (since they have less pages to cover up) they will start incorporating some more history... it's so important! There would be no song of ice and fire if all that happened before the books hadn't happened. But characters like Rhaegar have been mentioned like twice in 2 seasons... people who watch the series (non-readers) barely know who he is... well, crossing my fingers ^_^

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The House of the Undying sequence was terrible. It was almost as if they read the chapter and decided to jettison everything that made it great. Well, that's two for two now. They cut out my favorite scene in AGoT and now they've done the same for ACoK. Maybe they'll have the Red Wedding occur off-screen.

I have always kinda been alright with giving them a lot of leeway with Dany's story, as long as the end results are the same (which we actually haven't read yet) and she "learns" the same lessons, I am more than willing to cut them slack with her story, much more so than any of the others. Since a lot of the PtWP stuff is up in the air, and introducing new characters in her visions are difficult....having an accurate to the books sequence would have been difficult at this point, I guess I didn't feel too upset with the change.

Don't get me wrong, I am dying to see ALL of her visions and seeing Rhaegar and others... I would have giggled like a little girl while watching it, if they could have done it...I guess I can understand why they couldn't. It would have been awesome for the book readers but overly confusing for just the TV viewers.

But this is one of the only places I can forgive changes like this....

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For all of us ice and fire book lovers this series has really let us down, yes george martin wrote "blackwater" and many agree that this was the season's beast episode, but the airing of season two has reinforced a notion i've had in the back of my mind since i started reading these books and subsequently saw them on television; that as this show continues season by season and book by book, that the story would become too difficult to shoot for film, that the first season would ultimately be the best one because it was the easiest to translate to film (specifically in ten hours as a television series), but as the stories become more complicated, more is sacrificed in the writing room and on the cutting room floor in order to make a tv series that is pleasing to mass audiences and to network executives who ultimately are interested in dollar signs. the result is the loss of certain aspects of the books that give them their greatest appeal, and their absence from the series is nothing short of heartbreaking for all of us who followed george on this journey throughout Westeros and across the Narrow Sea.

From a poor introduction to Stannis/Melissandre and Dragonstone to the absence still of key characters like the Tully side of Lady Catelyn's family, to Robb Stark marrying some completely made up character instead on Jeyne Westerling at the Crag (and not in front of a heart tree, and done in the light of the seven to boot! his father hasn't been dead for that long! has Robb forgotten the old gods already?) this series has really been upsetting in the aspects of the story that it sacrifices and what it replaces it with instead, brand new scenes and conversations between characters that don't propel storyline forward but frustrate us real fans who were looking for people and places and conversations that we'll never see.

tyrion's great chain. they never made it, we never got to see that extra bit of his cunning. no wildfire being thrown from the battlements, also sad.

roose bolton at harrenhal, nope. we got tywin instead. not bad, but the roose storyline would have gone along nicely with a reek/ramsay who sacks winterfell at the end of the book/season

No brother and sister reed to take bran to the three eyes crow beyond the wall, are we to assume that osha will take me and rickon both to the last green see-er

i could go on and on but i won't, sorry for the rant, there's just so much we loose in the visual translation from book to film, so sad...

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and the three eyed crow is now a three eyed raven! geez, what next, i bet they'll make hodor the actual prince that was promised, or something crazy like that

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and the three eyed crow is now a three eyed raven! geez, what next, i bet they'll make hodor the actual prince that was promised, or something crazy like that

yeah that was a legitimate annoyance for me. The audience cant be hinted that it will be a former member of the NW if they don't have the word crow. And they aren't familiar with BloodRaven at all so they won't be clued in by the use of the word Raven.

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For all of us ice and fire book lovers this series has really let us down, yes george martin wrote "blackwater" and many agree that this was the season's beast episode,

Just gotta love typos, sometimes.

I enjoy the books, too. I'm reading them for the second time. However, if a season consists of ten one hour episodes, there are certain changes that have to be made. Some things are going to get left out and changes in the story line will have to be made, accordingly. Also, things must be simplified so the average TV audience can understand it. The show is an adaptation, not a copy.

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Watching the episode a second time allowed me to detach from the disappointments associated with the mangling of the source material and assesst it on its own merits. I must say I enjoyed the episode over all much more second time around (an experience I've had for almost all the shows this season, unlike last season). I realised how there were very few scenes to which I reacted negatively, but they were substantial problems from my perspective so they coloured the entire show. There was really very little wrong with the show before Robb's wedding scene.

So I can see for non-book readers that the finale was pretty decent, which while it doesn;t really give me any greater personal satisfaction it does give me confidence in how well the series is set for maintaining popularity going into season 3. Now it's just a matter of hoping they make a better go of the upcoming material knowing they have 2 seasons to play with to get through aSoS.

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For all of us ice and fire book lovers this series has really let us down,

Not true. There isn't a single movie taken from a book that doesn't change, compress, consolidate the action and characters in the book. The criterion for judging the movie is whether it is true to the book, or even provides insights that weren't evident in the book. With 10+ hours/book HBO has more of an opportunity to tell the story of the book and does a good job. Some of the criticisms online admit they are nitpicking. Others think they are not. But they are. I don't speak for anyone else and I don't appreciate others speaking for me. For me the HBO series provides a good visualation and characterization of the books, with more to come.

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Haven't read the books so it left it on a good cliffhanger for me, especially with the Sam bit.

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In my country Season Two has not been on TV (well, it's a bloody shame, Season One will be aired this autumn ...) so I had to view season 2 at some health risks for my computer, and not always in good quality. Although I mourn the loss of lots of character development and scenes that I loved from the books I suppose the adaptation is as good as one can expect from an adaptation. I have read all novels for the fifth time, so there is a chance I like them a lot. It would simply be not fair to expect the TV show to live up to that. Mainly they stayed true to the story, I think. I watched it with an open mind and tried to see its merits as just that, an adaptation. No more, no less - and kudo's to the show.

If I would allow myself to be upset about what they did not show, it would be for the character development of Arya. I'm not sure what happens with her characterwise will be fully understood now that her life at Harrenhal is shown as a cupbearer for Tywin Lannister. Sure, she observes cruelty, but in the books she is in a much less comfortable position. That made the choices she made for the names she gave to Jaqen in the books not wise but very understandable, considering what she went through and the fears she had. The names she gave Jaqen in the show made her choices silly, I'm afraid to say. Maybe the show is saving the hardening of her character and the actions that she takes according to this hardening till a particular event in season 3.

Joffrey ... I admire what is done with the character in the show but I mourn the loss of pity that I have always had for him when reading the books. For as evil as his actions are, in the books he is someone to feel pity for: a disturbed, very evil boy, abandoned by his two fathers and used for her own purposes by his mother, The adaptation for me leaves no room for pity for this character and so there is loss of character depth.

Dany. I was surprised what they have done to her storyline in Episode 10. I think they could not show the visons and prophecies of the House of the Undying at this stage. You can read about this in a book but I guess it can't be shown on screen. What they did show was very telling though: the throne room in ruins, nothing for her there, explaining the choices she makes in season 3 - and the choice she makes at that tent that is located near the Wall. Nicely done.

Jon and Sam. Oh boy. The scenery was great and I'm thankful that it matched what I envisioned and felt of the scenery beyond the Wall when I read the books. Sam is the Sam I picture in my mind when I read the books, Alas ... Jon in the TV Show is not the character I grew to find very, very interesting and multi-layered, when reading the books. But let's wait and see what the actor can do with the character in Season 3.

The white walkers. I liked very much what they did in the scene with Sam, the image of them 'herding' the wights. They came close to my image of the white walkers, allthough they were a bit too solid. In my mind they have always been sort of made up of the white mist that is connected to them.

All in all, I liked Episode 10 and Season 2 as an adaptation. I'm thankful for the TV Show for the images that fit with the images I have made up in my mind, for the landscapes and for some characters. My 'Jorah' was a different Jorah than Ian Glenn, but he made it change. The same with Bronn, the Hound, Stannis, Theon, Tywin. I have more trouble with the image of the show-Cersei, Catelyn, Tyrion, But lets see what they will do with their characters in Season Three.

Edited for typo's and spelling.

Edited by FanTasy

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So the only thing that can kill the Whitewalkers and others is fire...AND dragonglass weapons right?

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HBO is staying much more faithful to the books than many would when adapting from source material. There will always be changes often not to the good but that is simply something to tolerate, even if it does leave you muttering in annoyance after seeing it, heh. I myself mourn the loss of the innocence, ignorance and self-doubts that plague book-Brienne that is lost in the tv version. Maybe we'll see some of that come next season when there is a larger focus on Jaime.

*crosses fingers*

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I think the Saga has been well summarized. While I was a bit thrown off about the TV-Daenerys storyline, I don't think it's something too out of line.

At least I can confirm now that Daenerys isn't entirely insane and Qaithe isn't a product of her mind, which despite there being things in the books pointing otherwise, I was still paranoid about.

Edited by Zar Lannister

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Loved the foreshadowing in the HOTU- the throne room covered in Snow.... Bring on the R+L=J partisans.

Loved Dany being very Targaryen with locking XXD and Dorreah in the empty vault. Don't piss off a Targ....even a realtively sane one.

Loved the dragons sitting there anticipating Dany giving them the word....Flame On!

Loved Theon and Luwin's scene.

Loved Tyrion's scene with Shae. Should really pay off if they conclude Shae's storyline like the book.

OTOH....

Jon and the Half-Hand's fight left some of the non-book readers I watch with lost and confused. They should have set that up better and more clearly.

The three horn blasts and the attack of the Others and Walkers didn't really convey the dread it should have. The scene felt flat and the look of the Other was not what I've pictured...but it's not my show to run... The Other apparently looking right at Sam and then moving on was just dumb.

Overall, an excellent episode.

I agree with everything you said except the last part about the white walkers. I loved that scene. The third horn blast and Ed yelling "RUN!" As far as the white walker ignoring Sam, the same could be said for season 1 episode 1 when the deserter was aparently let go aswell, only to be beheaded by Eddard once captured. I'm thinking the White walkers like to leave a survivor to spread fear of their return. Just my 2 cents

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Highlights for me - the tenderness of the scene between Shae and Tyrion. It will make eventual betrayal much worse, if it happens? Some doubts, there are so many changes.

I have this terrible feeling they are going to have Tywin kill Shae, and Tyrion kill him in revenge.

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I can't even...brain is mush right now...

LOVED Theon's scene with Luwin. He was pretty hilarious about the guy who kept blowing the horn. Heh. I sort of loved his "northern mating call" speech. It was pretty funny. Oh, and FUCK YOU DAGMER(I don't care how sexy I think your voice is :angry: ).

Dany was badass. She's so awesome on the show. Oh, and FU Doreah as well. Justice for Irri!!!! I loved her raiding Xaro's things in the end.

Sansa's reaction to no longer being engaged to Joff was wonderful. It was very well conveyed since we can't be in her thoughts like in the books. Oh, and FU Littlefinger, too. "I thought of your mom as a sister" (yeah whatever)

"Sister" seems to mean something different in Westeros. Just ak Jaime and the Targaryans.

Goodbye beautiful, gorgeous lovely face Jaqen. Hello weird looking man.

House of Undying was fine. As a book reader, there were stuff I wish I got to see, but on its own it is okay. It is just not as cool as it was on the books. I would have liked some prophecy. Aren't they kind of important for her story?

Not too crazy about Robb/Jeyne whoever marriage or his attitude to Cat. Call her what you will, but his reaction to her was NOT very kingly.

Not KINGLY? Kings usually execute traitors.

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I really disliked Stannis' characterization, I always saw him as stoic, brooding, and irritable, not a man who flies into rages and strangles others on a whim. It seems almost like the different screenwriters are interpreting his chracacter completely differently. He went from a determined, just, and somewhat depressed/dour commander in episode 8, to a reckless action hero in episode 9, and now he's a tempermental domestic abuser? Pick your key chracteristics and stick with them until there's adequate explanation for a personality change, Stannis seems like he'd be diagnosed with dissociative personality disorder at this point. Pretty upsetting that they've reduced my favourite character to a mercurial bully.

Other than that, I was pretty satisfied with the episode, would have been cool to see Arya kill someone; but the ending more than made up for that.

And a note on the ending, they really changed the White Walker style, they went from black and shadowy to pale with hair? Are we dealing with different types of White Walkers, or entities all together?

Double standard much? You're bothered by Stannis choking the woman who murdered his brother and spurred him on to humiliating defeat at King Landing, but disappointed Arya didn't get to murder anyone? I guess violence is only bad when directed at female characters? "TAKE BACK THE NIGHT!" It DOES seem that you and Martin have a similar sentiment. Two seasons in and ONE woman has been brutaly killed (by another woman, so maybe THAT'S okay), while dozens of men have been butchered on screen.

Catelyn betrays the King in the North, and is given house arrest. Osha tries to kill Bran and Robb, and is hired as the boys' nanny. Ygritte puts her own head on the chopping (stone) and Jon Snow falls in love with her. Tywin FREAKING Lannister engages in verbal sparring with a high-born Northerner and lets her handle his food and drink.

Yeah - that ALL makes complete sense.

/sarcasm /rant

Although, I do agree that Stannis leading the castle attack was ridiculous. He was a foot away from having a dropped stone pulp HIS head. Way to tempt destiny, there, Chosen One.

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