[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

[legba11]

Rewatch:

It's snow in the Dany's wrecked Iron Throne scene, there are icicles and the set designer talked about on the production HBO Go.

Jorah's look to Dany when he hands her XXD's key is priceless. 'I told you so", and then she concedes the point to him in the next scene with the buying a boat comment. Excellent.

The second Other is well armored (though not in ice armor). Almost all the wights are wildlings and crows. A few random ones mixed in.

Jaquan calls her Arya Stark as he leaves, was that in the books also, it's a good period for their relationship.

On PP's death, the man is immolated in fire by three dragons for a LONG time. Sheesh, Khal Drogo wouldn't have survived that.

Ygritte is MUCh more appealing when she isn't being the generic spitfire archetype. I hope they keep her that way. She was so annoying in her earlier episodes. (much like the book character).

The episode was 63 minutes!

[rmholt]

If the Ironborn at Winterfell really went home and gave Theon to the northerners outside, who are the dead guys in Winterfell and how come Winterfell was left a smoking ruin? Hard to have a fight when on side vanishes. Talking about the movie not the book

[rmholt]

Yeah, the topper to the shit Robb/Talisa story was the wedding with the wrong gods. I understand why they wanted to beef up Robb's story this season, but it didn't work. I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt, but now that the season is over, I guess the time for that is over.

Maybe he did it for Talisa. Oh wait - she isnt Jeyne. That is really messed up bc they couldnt very well throw in some Volantene god.

In the show I like that Shae seems to love Tyrion, but I do miss the book Shae and Tyrion's delusions about her. I am not sure which is more tragic for Tyrion down the line.

Shae could easily still be acting. Tyrion didnt truly know she was faking it yet.

[rmholt]

The Winterfell Weirwood was awesome but did anyone see a face? The intro has one but I didnt see it in the Luwin scene

[Wyrd One]

If the Ironborn at Winterfell really went home and gave Theon to the northerners outside, who are the dead guys in Winterfell and how come Winterfell was left a smoking ruin? Hard to have a fight when on side vanishes. Talking about the movie not the book

I haven't reread book 2 in many years, but speaking from a series only point of view it looked to me like:

1. The Ironborn are in the castle that is beseiged by northman.
   
2. Theon tries to rile them up to go out and attack
   
3. He gets knocked out instead and they say, let's go home.
   
4. ... Something happens that we don't see ...
   
5. We see Bran and company emerge into a smoking ruin of Winterfell with dead bodies laying around.
   

It seems to me the implication is that the Ironborn opened the gates, the northmen killed them all and set Winterfell on fire, and likely took Theon as a hostage, to reemerge in a later season.

I suspect early in season 3 we'll get a flashback scene to show what happened, and they can introduce Ramsey at the start of season 3. A season finale is a bad time to introduce a new character, so they simply didn't show it yet.

[rmholt]

It must be how he said it and mumbled it a little. ughh... hearing things.

Hint - and hope this isnt a spoiler - Hodor is all he ever says.

[Brewmaster]

If the Ironborn at Winterfell really went home and gave Theon to the northerners outside, who are the dead guys in Winterfell and how come Winterfell was left a smoking ruin? Hard to have a fight when on side vanishes. Talking about the movie not the book

The Ironborn were slaughtered by Ramsay and his men after turning over Theon anyway.

[Greywolf2375]

The Winterfell Weirwood was awesome but did anyone see a face? The intro has one but I didnt see it in the Luwin scene

That tree definitely has a face in it - from the angle they are shooting his scenes there it might not have been as clear, but I do remember seeing one in that set before.

[dark sister]

On the HBO website Dany is described as being impervious to fire ("Daenerys is mourning the death of her husband, Drogo, but has not stopped strategizing her return to the Seven Kingdoms to take back the Iron Throne. Impervious to fire, Dany used the heat of Drogo's funeral pyre to hatch the dragon eggs she was given as a wedding gift, and now considers the three young dragons her children").

I haven't read the HBO website. I considered SSM to be a better source. I mean, if Martin says that her walking into the fire was a "one time deal" then HBO must be wrong. And it just doesn't make sense that a mortal being could be impervious to fire. That means that Daenerys is not human. Well, maybe she's not, and I'm sure you'd love it if she weren't (not mocking, I just know you really like her character and might think it cool if she were something extra special). However, I personally would think it a bad choice (to make her impervious to fire).

Do you not think that maybe viewers are supposed to be confused? For example, we're not supposed to know what happened to Theon and Winterfell yet (although it seems quite obvious to readers that the Ironborn handed over Theon and then Bolton's men burned the place).

I think it's only obvious to the book readers what happened, since we know the actual plot, not the modified one. Viewers being confused is one thing -- utterly befuddled is quite another. Of course, I haven't taken a poll or anything, but it seems to leave one not so much as "in suspense" but "in a bewildered state".

As for the Others... I don't understand the confusion about Sam being spared. The Others do what the Others want. If they want Sam to go back to the Wall, they'll let him go back to the Wall. They're not just mindless killing machines.

If the Others do what the Others want, you can't say they're NOT just mindless killing machines. Because no one knows what their motives are. I'm just going by what was in the book. This is the book spoilers discussion, after all, and they did want to kill him. They might have had him just run with Grenn and Dolorous Edd, and then pan back to what was following behind them. That would have incurred more of a sense of terror, imho.

We don't know what happened with Stannis between the end of the Battle of the Blackwater and Davos' rescue -- all we know is that he only saw Melisandre during this time. We also know that this is when he starts to see visions in the fire. So if it "really irked" you here, it should have irked you in the book.

No, we don't know. That wasn't my problem with the scene. My problem was with his choking her, and I don't recall his seeing things in the flames.

When does he see visions in the book? I don't remember that. All I remember is Axell Florent claiming that he saw visions.

And why do you sound so hostile in your post?

Edited June 5, 2012 by dark sister

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's what Dany's story line was; a lot of filler, a lot of fat, a lot of empty calories that did not advance the story but, instead, drew us away from more interesting lands and more interesting times.

Dany's story is mostly filler, and I think there's a pretty logical reason for that:

The series was supposed to be only three books long. In a three book series, Dany's arc is pretty clear. Book 1 is her marrying Drogo, Drogo dying, and her hatching the dragons. Book 2 is her dragons growing up (remembering the 5 year "gap" that was supposed to happen) and her gathering forces, and Book 3 was going to be her return to Westeros.

I think what happened is that the story of what was happening in Westeros expanded because of massive content and complexity, first to four books, then six, and now seven. But there really wasn't ever a seven book storyline for Danaerys in Essos. So, to a large extent, Danaery's story was artificially expanded with a bunch of filler so that she didn't just not appear in a bunch of books. In essence, she's marking time while the rest of the story catches up, and that's how GRRM ended up stuck in the infamous "Meereenees Knot", and why Danys' chapters have seemed to drag. It's because it was never intended that there would need to be so many chapters in the first place.

I would not be at all surprised if the showrunners varied significantly from the books with respect to Danaerys. They want her to have an interesting, compelling story of her own, and I'm not sure they can find that just in the books themselves without some pretty significant changes.

[dark sister]

Just a quick word of defense for the Dany story-line (and I have to reiterate that I really disliked her story line this season): in the book Dany has very very little time in Clash of Kings. Dany has FIVE whole chapters (conversely, Tyrion has fifteem). Therefore, the series had very, very little to go on.

I must also repeat something that gets lost on people: in the books, Martin only has to deal with his own tastes and story-constraints in dealing with writing the books; "Dany" has no say in what happens to her. But in the show there is an actress as Dany and her- and her agents and publicists - demand screen time and explinationsa s to why she cannot be in more episodes. Same is true for Jaime, Cat, etc etc etc. The creators have to do something or the major cast members will be problematic and may not return (this has already happened with at least one minor character- Gregor).

I bring this up because, well, Dany has to do something. Now, my gripe is that what they actually did was empty calories; it took up time and space but gave the viewer nothing back in return. I do not care at all, not even a little bit about a foolish power-grab in Qarth; don't care about the King, how he came from nothing nor the writer's incessent need to mention that every time the guy opens his mouth- a clear sign that the writers have nothing to say. I don't care about a vault, I don't care about the mercahnts who won't help Dany and I don't care about the politics that have no effect (zero, ziltch, nada) on the story as a whole.

Dany's story line would have been perfect had the producers took the approach that "less is more." JUst minimize her and present the House of the Undying as a great mystery to all (less is more); nobody is certain what happens there etc. But they have become restless recently etc etc etc. Prye convinces Dany that he will help her by giving her the secrets of the House- always take the last door on the left etc etc etc. Maybe put something in there where Dany becomes separated from Drogon if you want to seal the kidnapping angle. Make it a two-part episode and you're done. No King of Qarth, no senseless murder scenes (seriously, how easy is it to kill a council of 13?); no kidnapping. Just a tighter, leaner story.

This is why when people say "BAH PURISTS SUCK!!!!!" Might as well say nothing at all. Its not "puristy" I'm after; its a soilid story. Some of my favorite scenes have been ones never touched upon in the books (ie: Cersei and Robert; Stannis and Davos discussing Storm's End; obviously Blackwater was reimagined). But when you diverge from the story and fill that time up with a void; with vapid and unimaginative details; when the story tells me a lot about "A" but does it at the expense of "B", "C" and "D"; when you turn a porterhouse steak into hamburger, well... I don't have to jump up and say "Thank you, sir, may I have another.

That's what Dany's story line was; a lot of filler, a lot of fat, a lot of empty calories that did not advance the story but, instead, drew us away from more interesting lands and more interesting times.

Man, you are just DEAD ON. You said so eloquently exactly what I was thinking. Kudos!!!

[FrozenFire3]

Boy would THAT be wasted on Arya

:P

[A Clash of Crows]

Man, you are just DEAD ON. You said so eloquently exactly what I was thinking. Kudos!!!

I wonder if they would have been better off having her just come out of the Red Waste and end up in Astapor. The only value her whole story line gives this season is another level of confidence for Dany: She tries to negotiate; People don't take her seriously; She learns how powerful her magic is/the dragons are; She embodies the "true" Targaryan conqueror traits.

I feel like they could have done all of that in Astapor through the process of negotiation for the army, then decides to burn the slave masters. The same points get across and you don't affect the rest of the storyline in any significant way. Just end her arc this season with her forceful taking of a powerful army and start season 3 with her charging through Yunkai(?) and Mereen(?).

There's plenty in those stories if they wanted to drag it out too, but the Qarth story didn't seem to add anything the later storylines couldn't handle on their own

[PatrickStormborn]

I haven't read the HBO website. I considered SSM to be a better source. I mean, if Martin says that her walking into the fire was a "one time deal" then HBO must be wrong. And it just doesn't make sense that a mortal being could be impervious to fire. That means that Daenerys is not human. Well, maybe she's not, and I'm sure you'd love it if she weren't (not mocking, I just know you really like her character and might think it cool if she were something extra special). However, I personally would think it a bad choice (to make her impervious to fire).

I never said she was impervious to fire in the books, so I don't understand what your point is. I said that the show have defined her as immune to fire on their own website, so within the show!universe she is apparently immune to fire. And I'm sorry but this is a fantasy series with wargs and greenseers; I have trouble believing that humans cannot be immune to fire.

I don't really need her to be something extra special... She walked into a fire and brought dragons back to life. She's special enough to me! :)

I think it's only obvious to the book readers what happened, since we know the actual plot, not the modified one. Viewers being confused is one thing -- utterly befuddled is quite another. Of course, I haven't taken a poll or anything, but it seems to leave one not so much as "in suspense" but "in a bewildered state".

That's why I said "it's obvious to readers". It's deliberately confusing to non-readers.

If the Others do what the Others want, you can't say they're NOT just mindless killing machines. Because no one knows what their motives are. I'm just going by what was in the book. This is the book spoilers discussion, after all, and they did want to kill him. They might have had him just run with Grenn and Dolorous Edd, and then pan back to what was following behind them. That would have incurred more of a sense of terror, imho.

The Others wanted to kill him in the books -- that doesn't mean that they always want to kill everything. Perhaps the Others thought that leaving someone alive would help spread their message?

No, we don't know. That wasn't my problem with the scene. My problem was with his choking her, and I don't recall his seeing things in the flames.

When does he see visions in the book? I don't remember that. All I remember is Axell Florent claiming that he saw visions.

And why do you sound so hostile in your post?

If I recall correctly, Stannis sees the Others attacking the Night's Watch at the fist of the first men (ASOS: Davos IV).

I apologise for coming across as hostile. I'm just trying to clear some things up.

[Burt Clegane]

Dany, throughout the series, has shown that she is impervious to heat (boiling bath water, bonfire, hot eggs, etc.). It's established to the viewers now. She isn't going to get a 2nd degree burn of one of her own dragons.

[Wyrd One]

Dany, throughout the series, has shown that she is impervious to heat (boiling bath water, bonfire, hot eggs, etc.). It's established to the viewers now. She isn't going to get a 2nd degree burn of one of her own dragons.

It's also established that dragonfire can melt stone (Harrenhall) where normal fire can't even touch it, so dragon fire is like a step above natural fire. She can definitely withstand natural fire, but I was wondering if dragon fire would be hot enough to burn a Targaryen. It appears it is not.

[Nahlim]

Dany, throughout the series, has shown that she is impervious to heat (boiling bath water, bonfire, hot eggs, etc.). It's established to the viewers now. She isn't going to get a 2nd degree burn of one of her own dragons.

I think she is impervious to dragonfire in the books, too. ADWD Spoiler:

When she faced Drogon in the arena it is said that her hair burned down, but she was fine.

As for her arc in the second season, I think the whole point of it was her getting involved in politics and schemes, so she can learn a lesson there as well.

I like when things are different in the show because it keeps me interested in watching it.

[Mista C]

Man, am I down in the dumps since the screen faded to black Sunday night... I can't believe that we have to wait 10 months for Season 3. To pass some of the time, I'm planning on doing a re-read of SoS and FFC, then I will read ADWD for the first time.

[Burt Clegane]

Well, Targayens can be burned (Viserys), it's just "The Dragon" that can't be.

[Matthew Marzolf]

Theon scene was hilarious...'nough said...

I was ROFLMAO after that scene....

"and whoever kills that guy blowing that FUCKING horn will have a statue..."

Still chuckling over that one.