[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

[TheRiderThatMounts]

I can't help but assume that Robb being married in the light of the Seven is a major plot point in the tv show. I'm not sure why but it had to be done for a reason, right? That's really my only nitpick. I liked this episode.

I thought about that but then I remembered that Rickard Karstark also swore by The Seven when they released the Kingslayer.

I don't think Robb swearing by the seven was a major plot point. I think it was a mistake. I would like to think it was a mistake. Cause, if not, it would just be a huge "fuck you" from the producers to all the readers of the books.

I don't like some of the changes they made. Totally unnecessary.

They did not kill Doreah only to have her betray Daeneris.

They killed Rakharo, Irri for some unknown reasons.

They made lord Tywin look like an old uncle.

The ironborn are now traitorous bastards.

Ghost is awol.

Osha is a slut.

Shae is a main character.

Ros is.... what is Ros? What is her role in all of this?!

Robb's wife is some unknown bitch.

Xaro is dead.

Salladhor Saan is black.

Drogo is Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The House of the Undying has only one undying.

Ser Barristan did not appear. Neither did Strong Belwas or the Reeds.

Episode 9 was the best this season has to offer. It was actually one of the best in the entire series. No wonder since GRRM contributed to its making.

[TheRiderThatMounts]

Sorry for the double post. Someone please delete this.

Edited June 4, 2012 by TheRiderThatMounts

[The Shadowbinder]

The White Walkers were absolutely terrible.

Why do they walk so slowly, staring up at the sky, pretending to be dead like a five-year-old would? The only thing missing was their tongue hanging out. I felt like I was watching Shaun of the Dead. That was simply embarrassing.

The supernatural is a delicate aspect of ASoIF and should be handled in a way that doesn't lessen the story.

Yeah the White Walker looked like a hairy zombie with arthritis... :P How am I suppose to dread an enemy I can escape at a brisk trott? I always imagined the White Walkers as elegant, graceful... almost elven in appearance. Where was the glittering armor? Monkey dude was nude.

I liked the rest of the episode pretty well though. Kinda wondering why they made up that pointless king of Qarth storyline instead of fleshing out the HotU - which could have been half an episode and as epic as Blackwater.

Robb, King of the North, getting married in the Light of the Seven, total fail. Guh why not just have Cat/Robb find out about Bran/Rickon dying before making these obviously terrible, stupid decisions :(

Tyrion and Shae was great, they're making her character much more interesting than in the book.

Really loved Theon. One of my favorite book arcs, and I feel like we're learning even more about his motivations and feelings through the series. Comical Dagmar ending was a little odd - but I'm pretty sure this is a setup for Season 3 Theon to recall the Bastard's betrayal and burning of Winterfell in flashbacks.

Really looking forward to season 3, I expect it'll be much better since they can (hopefully) go into more detail since its only half a book.

Valar Morgulis! That was awesome too :) although I wish Jaqen did the downward face wipe transformation like in the book but now I'm just nitpicking :P

Edited June 4, 2012 by The Shadowbinder

[J_Crews]

To those having issues over Robb marrying Susie SexyNurse in the light of the Seven:

You need to remember that they're marrying somewhere near a war camp in the South. Northern marriage vows are said before a weirwood, of which there are none in the South.

[K.C.]

Ros is.... what is Ros? What is her role in all of this?!

Ros is either a secret Targaryen (GRRM did say he would use her in future books...) or a catch-all solution for when there's a loose plot end or people need someone to talk at.

[TheRiderThatMounts]

To those having issues over Robb marrying Susie SexyNurse in the light of the Seven:

You need to remember that they're marrying somewhere near a war camp in the South. Northern marriage vows are said before a weirwood, of which there are none in the South.

Good point. However, Robb's religion is not that of the Seven and neither is Tallisa's(if she is from Volantis). I doubt that two people with two different religions would marry into a third different religion. Come on!

And there are weirwoods in the south.

The Blackwoods still serve the Old Gods and a lot of castles have their own Godswood!

[Gertrude]

To those having issues over Robb marrying Susie SexyNurse in the light of the Seven:

You need to remember that they're marrying somewhere near a war camp in the South. Northern marriage vows are said before a weirwood, of which there are none in the South.

I did think about this, but there could have been some accommodation made. Just even mentioning the old gods would have sufficed for me. Also, as someone pointed out, having Karstark swear by the seven indicated it was probably sloppy rather than taking practical matters into consideration (no tree available).

[K.C.]

To those having issues over Robb marrying Susie SexyNurse in the light of the Seven:

You need to remember that they're marrying somewhere near a war camp in the South. Northern marriage vows are said before a weirwood, of which there are none in the South.

I had tried to make a separate thread on this earlier, but wasn't able to because of the forums acting up. Thanks for pointing that out about the weirwood. But in the absence of their own gods, they swear to someone else's?

[Baelor Blackfyre]

I'm on both sides of the debate. I freakin loved the episode, and loved the way they chose to present the material. But at the same time I can't help but feel a little disappointed at the changes and omissions. I think what many of us feel, in terms of book-readers, is that...well...it could have been better. That's like the theme of the season. It could have been better.

Don't get me wrong, I loved what I saw in this episode. And i would give it a 10/10. But it had potential to be a 12/10, or even a 20/10. (if they nailed the HotU perfectly) And I feel like their perfectly capable (especially after season one) of presenting the book material better, without resorting to changes.

But I do have a question that I hope someone answers in the midst of this swarm of posts.

Has Martin stated if the show is in canon with the books? Does the show confirm things unconfirmed in the books? For example, when Ros discovered firsthand that Varys was a eunuch, is that a confirmation that Varys is indeed a eunuch in the books? (I personally have always believed that he is a eunuch, don't understand why I wouldn't, but apparently there are theories saying he could not be)

I feel like its a yes but I'm not sure...

Edited June 4, 2012 by Baelor Blackfyre

[Nav Akbar]

altho a brilliant show for the people who have not read the books i still think the makers are missing the point that most people who watch the show then go onto read the books and in that respect there making a mistake in not including essential and crucial parts that make the entire book series so worth while ..... i am referring to the warnings in the house of the undying ....3 times you will be betrayed this made us all want to re-read the books and try and work out who and when she would be betrayed also the blue rose in the ice wall has been a massive rumour mill since it was mentioned in the book and if it all plays out like we think it will then missing that out of the show might come back and bite the makers on there arse possibly.

The fight with Jon could and should have been better explained....maybe a scene at nite when they are camping and the 2 of them could have had a brief exchange and came to the conclusion that a fight to the death was the best way to integrate jon with the people beyond the wall.

Bolton's betrayal could have been hinted at with a simple scene of him outside when Theon's men are leaving.

Not enough empathy/screen time is being given to Rob....this is not good esp since we as book readers know about the red wedding and the trauma that caused us all for days if not weeks after reading it ....i fear if and when it happens in the series people will just go oh well unlike when Joffrey gets his cause the show has done a brilliant job in making him someone we all really really really hate ... that dinner scene is going to be epic.

And last but certainly not least ......seriously WTF ... why did they miss out so many Direwolf sections .....i like the wolves :(

[TheRiderThatMounts]

I took a look at the scene again. Robb and Talissa got married under a huge tree! Not a Weirwood, but a tree non the less. And they spoke the words of the seven...... WEAK!

The actors carried the show this season. That is the truth of it. Tyrion, Joffrey, Theon, Jaquen, Jamie - I love these characters more because of the actors that gave them life!

What is dead may never die!!!! .... sorry about that. Theon's speach still has me in its trance... :D

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

They shouldnt have shown the walkers at all. I hope to forget that image. The undead horse surounded by MIST would of been awesome, then cut scene. I would not be afraid of that, I would laugh at it. The wights looked good tho.

HOTU sucked, boring even. I Understand they dont want spoiler's, but they could of at least made it fun, they tryed heartfelt with Drogo, it fell flat.

The only thing i found interesting was, Dany never touched the throne, is it foreshadowing that she we make it all the way to KL, but never take the throne? Just interesting.

What about Jaqen telling Arya, the FM will help you kill all those people, WTF they will do everything but that.

Varys is masterful as always, but now he is with Ros The Useless, that is her formal title as far as i am concerned.

Dont want to spoil things, but lets have Littlefinger tell sansa he will save her...

Those thing where dumb, but i understand it cant be the books.

8/10 as far a TV goes

3/10 in relation to book.

[Javi Marcos]

Book purists are horrible.

The only serious complain I could express is Jon's arc...and Ygritte was so good in it that I don't care. Come on, Qhorin appear in 3 chapters, is a very miror character , you can't say they have destroyed him.

Is Jon a moron in TV? Yes. Is a Jon a moron in the TV show? Yes. Keep calm.

As a book reader, I give the episode a solid 9 (8.5 for 2nd Season)

As a far as TV goes, I'd give a 9.5 or even more

[J_Crews]

I don't like some of the changes they made. Totally unnecessary.

They killed Rakharo,

That wasn't by choice. The actor got a bigger, better-paying gig. He's doing the World War Z film adaptation with Brad Pitt.

The ironborn are now traitorous bastards.

They always were. They're, essentially, the Westerosi stand-in for Danes going viking. If they can't screw it, eat it, or sell it it's useless to them. Trying to turn such people into something that fits in with the school of warfare Theon grew-up learning was on of his big blunders. The Ironborn do not occupy inland holding, regardless of the strength of the fortress... because they're strength is their fleet.

Osha is a slut.

She always was. She went from humping the wildling (former crow) who was killed last season straight to letting Winterfell's cook "lift her skirts." Having her with Theon didn't change her character in the slightest; it just kept them from needing to cast another actress for Theon to play with.

Xaro is dead.

Who cares? He shows-up one more time in the following 3 books and does nothing that can't be done by another new character. This isn't a book; it's TV -- keeping him alive would've meant either using him on-screen, taking $$$ out of the budget every season to pay him under a holding contract, or re-casting him.

Salladhor Saan is black.

Why is this a problem?

Ser Barristan did not appear. Neither did Strong Belwas or the Reeds.

We know the Reeds are being cast for next season.

Why pay an actual salary to the actor who plays Ser Barristan for him to be in one scene, when they could just as easily pay him under a holding contract (less $$$) and then re-introduce him as a full cast member in Season 3?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Belwas gets cut altogether?

[Howdyphillip]

To those having issues over Robb marrying Susie SexyNurse in the light of the Seven:

You need to remember that they're marrying somewhere near a war camp in the South. Northern marriage vows are said before a weirwood, of which there are none in the South.

Or a godswood when a weirwood is unavailable in the south. There are plenty of those. Even if you couldn't find a godswood, do you convert religions? Ok... maybe converting religions is acceptable if you are doing so for your spouse even though your bannermen would like as not quit following you for this. The problem with this, is that Rob's bride is from Esos, and she wouldn't be a worshiper of the seven either.

This was flat out bad writing. If they would have just watched the special features on their own blu ray, it would have been figured out. I am as big of a defender of the writing of this show as there is, but this was just wrong. The producers need better fact checkers.

I am available by the way...

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

A few people, and when I mean few, I mean a tiny amount of people are forgetting that Wights effectively as Zombies. They're pretty much exactly the same, except Wights have glowing blue eyes. Them being all messed up and zombie like is pretty true to the books.

As for the original White Walker being black, perhaps they wear clothes? And in Season 1 we never saw a close up of the White Walkers.

[Frumpus]

IMO they should not have even bothered to cast the Reeds next season. I feel like they have bowed too much to fan pressure when they need to focus on tightening existing storylines and adapting for tv better.

[Lord Rickard Snow]

Great Episode wish it was ten more minutes of Blackwater than this one, although can't see much of this episode that could be lost.

Here how imy feelings now that we have to wait till next season

1- Found a great present under the holiday Tree (Watched the Episode)

2- Shook it guess what it is (Read the Books, minus 500 pages of DwD)

3- Found the tree on Fire, now having to wait till next holiday to get a new one (Next Season can't come faster)

Speaking of faster does anyone think that the show will eventually catch up to or pass the books? Was thinking that because of the expidited feeling i get when watching

[J_Crews]

Good point. However, Robb's religion is not that of the Seven and neither is Tallisa's(if she is from Volantis). I doubt that two people with two different religions would marry into a third different religion. Come on!

And there are weirwoods in the south.

The Blackwoods still serve the Old Gods and a lot of castles have their own Godswood!

Southern godswoods, almost uniformly, have no weirwoods, using other tress like oaks, etc. as their heart trees. Off the top of my head, I can only remember one weirwood is the south, that being at Raventree Hall. Riverrun and King's Landing are specifically mentioned as having no weirwoods So, how do we know they aren't hundreds of miles from the nearest (and maybe the only) one? The Riverlands is a big region.

I did think about this, but there could have been some accommodation made. Just even mentioning the old gods would have sufficed for me. Also, as someone pointed out, having Karstark swear by the seven indicated it was probably sloppy rather than taking practical matters into consideration (no tree available).

I had tried to make a separate thread on this earlier, but wasn't able to because of the forums acting up. Thanks for pointing that out about the weirwood. But in the absence of their own gods, they swear to someone else's?

I took to be more like a "We need to get married now. Let's go find a septon."

[J_Crews]

Good point. However, Robb's religion is not that of the Seven and neither is Tallisa's(if she is from Volantis). I doubt that two people with two different religions would marry into a third different religion. Come on!

And there are weirwoods in the south.

The Blackwoods still serve the Old Gods and a lot of castles have their own Godswood!

Southern godswoods, almost uniformly, have no weirwoods, using other tress like oaks, etc. as their heart trees. Off the top of my head, I can only remember one weirwood is the south, that being at Raventree Hall. Riverrun and King's Landing are specifically mentioned as having no weirwoods So, how do we know they aren't hundreds of miles from the nearest (and maybe the only) one? The Riverlands is a big region.

I did think about this, but there could have been some accommodation made. Just even mentioning the old gods would have sufficed for me. Also, as someone pointed out, having Karstark swear by the seven indicated it was probably sloppy rather than taking practical matters into consideration (no tree available).

I had tried to make a separate thread on this earlier, but wasn't able to because of the forums acting up. Thanks for pointing that out about the weirwood. But in the absence of their own gods, they swear to someone else's?

I took to be more like a "We need to get married now. Let's go find a septon."