[Book Spoilers] House of the Undying

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

While I get and understand the NERD RAGE!!! associated with changes to storylines in the book, and I'm not going to pretend like the "Where are my dragons?!?" portion of the Qarth storyline went as well as it could have, I offer this challenge to you: Given the amount of time spent on Dany from, say, "Garden of Bones" onwards, what would you change about the story? Keep in mind that budget and time are a factor. If you spend more time on the story, what do you remove from another storyline? If you elaborate more on the HotU scene, how would you trim the budget elsewhere in the series to pay for it?

For me, I suppose that I'm good without the Undying Ones themselves and having Pyat Pree take their place. Kind of like making Baelish the brothel owner in season 1, I think this simplifies things for a story that can only take up a fraction of the time in the season. As much as I don't like cutting stuff like that, it keeps things simple and streamlined. Likewise, I don't like how several unexpected people get killed off (Irri, Silver, Rakharo, etc.), but I like that it makes Dany feel alone and without options. Similarly, I also kind of like how her relationship with Xaro and the "Spice King" is changed from the books because (1) it sort of consolidates the Thirteen, the Guild of Spicers, the Pureborn etc. and (2) I actually kind of liked how her bargaining scenes played out with Xaro and the Spice King.

Honestly, my only problems with it were that the whole "Where are my dragons?!?" bit was just childish and silly. I wonder how much of a role that whole "kidnapped dragons" really needed to play in getting Dany to the HotU and eventually out of Qarth. And then we get to the House of the Undying. I agree that there should've been more here (if only because we missed out on some really trippy, avant garde kind of visuals that would be required to show some of this stuff without getting too spoiler-y), although I will concede that Quaithe can still help fill in some of these gaps as the series goes on.

My solution? Simple: End season 2 with either the dragon kidnapping (if that must be kept) or the murder of the 13 by Pyat and Xaro (I really do secretly like this change), and just devote more time to the House of Undying in the beginning of season 3. I've never felt like Dany's story advances too far in the next three books. There's a lot there that can be consolidated and moved around, especially since we really don't have to worry about her storyline crossing over with anyone elses for perhaps three more seasons (depending on how the books are adapted... I know the next two seasons will be ASoS, but who knows what they'll do with AFfC and ADoD). So why not give ourselves a huge event in the beginning of the third season (otherwise, we're mostly left with the Night's Watch scandals north of The Wall and maybe a little bit of action in Robb Stark's camp, and most of the other big moments won't happen until the end of season 3 or season 4). This gives us more time (and effects money, since with GoT's success, I'm sure their budget from HBO is getting bigger each year... for now) to devote to the HotU, and we can add a few more prophecy items, like the blue flower and Prince Rhaegar, etc. In all honesty, I'm not sure why they wouldn't do that. They already moved Arstan to not show up until season 3.

Of course, the other side of the token might be that prophesies don't work as well on TV as they do on the written page, and maybe all of our nerd rage is over something that non-readers just wouldn't respond to and the flow of the TV series would suffer for it.

[Im With Stannis]

I think people need to cut the producers some slack. I mean, there are budget and time restraints that I'm sure prevented them from getting everything they wanted in the scene. Plus most of the visions are not really that vital to the storyline and take away some of the element of surprise for future events. Why allude to the red wedding when you could just watch it unfold later on. I think they just didn't want any non-book readers to figure things out that are meant to be shocking when they happen. Point is, they are just unnecessary and would cost a lot of money to recreate. The only one I could see as being slightly more important is the Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon one, and that one would just confuse non-book readers since the show really doesn't really go into much detail about them.

As for the three betrayals and such, I actually do think those are pretty important to storyline and should be included. However, those can easily be added in next season. So, I refuse to be annoyed by their absence until we see if they are brought up next season. Although, if season 3 rolls around and the three betrayals are not included, I will be really mad because of the part they play in Dany's treatment of Jorah. Without them Dany's decision will come off as being super harsh.

Yeah, they really need to fit in Aegon and Rheagar background somewhere before he shows up suddenly in ADWD. I don't see how they could have this character suddenly appear, and the audience is going to know who that is. They have to elaborate on this story within the next 2 seasons, whether its a dream sequence Dany has or whatever.

Looking back, I'm not all that disappointed in the shows HOU. I for one thought the scene b/t Drogo and Rheago was moving. The throne room scene gives a lot away to the viewers and readers- looks like the White Walkers will reach Kings Landing, at least. And re-watching the episode again, I think even bigger foreshadowing is given to us from the Stannis scene happening shortly after (Stannis sits on the throne, somehow, someway).

I also think tv-only fans have the memory of a cat. Everyone I talked to that watched the show but not read the books never remember how Robert got in power in the first place, or why. Most of them are so caught up in Ned's death and Bran's crippling they are missing the bigger picture. To some extent, I think it's intentional on D&D's part, but as new characters come, they will have to fill in the blanks at some point.

[Myles]

Since we didn't see the book version of what happened in the house of the undying,

and we won't see any visualization of it any time soon- I had the need to make one!

This video clip is made from illustrations published in the internet and the voice of Roy Dotrice from "A Clash of Kings" audio book.

Hope you like it:

I am still hoping to see the real thing one day...

[JaTyAdo]

They had the wall right there why the hell wouldn't they put a blue rose on it.

Agreed!!! Man, how could HBO explains it if it actually turned out that R+L=J? Damn, they should start giving tidbits of clues about R+L=J... People won't get it if it was revealed... And the prophecies!!!! the one where it was mentioned.. "a song of ice and fire" and I sincerely hop[e they just put the step about the red wedding so when it happened.. the people are gonna be like... "woah so that's why she saw that" and the symbolism that GRRM used are fantastic.. I honestly want to see it on the show so people could actually interpret it... ARGHHH!!!!!!!!

[_Oberyn_]

Since we didn't see the book version of what happened in the house of the undying,

and we won't see any visualization of it any time soon- I had the need to make one!

This video clip is made from illustrations published in the internet and the voice of Roy Dotrice from "A Clash of Kings" audio book.

Hope you like it:

I am still hoping to see the real thing one day...

Very nice work.

[bardgal]

So....yeah. The first several times I watched this episode, I, like many, kept thinking of all the things missing, even though I know they weren't possible without being both massively spoilerish and completely confusing to non-book readers. Still I didn't realize how much I was allowing that to cloud my judgement, and blind me from what was right there on the screen.

Then last night, after rewatching all of season 2 in prep for 3, and just to get my fix while these last two weeks crawl by, I finally just watched it, for it's own sake, just to enjoy the episode, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. We got a LOT of visions, and prophecies:

• KL is a burned-out ruin, along the lines of Harrenhall. (Dragons.)
  

• KL is a uselss husk and therefore, unimportant.
  

• (Jon) Snow on the Iron Throne
  

• Dany reaches for, but doesn't touch The Iron Throne - it will never be her's (directly), she has more important things to attend to (those she loves.)
  

• Dany must go beyond The Wall to find her Sun(Son)-and-Stars (Jon)
  

• Dany's Sun/Son-and-Stars is not dead, though many believe him to be. (Jon.) (Also she believes she is now unable to have a child.... but really can, as long as she finds Jon, north of The Wall.)
  

• Is that the state Dany will find Jon (the rightful heir to the the 7K) in when she arrives?
  

• "Until the Sun rises in the West, and sets in the East, until the rivers run dry, and the mountains blow like leaves in the wind...." kind of describes the frozen tundra of the north polar region (where every direction is south so east and west are wherever you really want them to be, the sun never sets or rises in summer, the rivers are dry with ice, and there is nothing but mountains of blowing snow.)
  

I am now, more than ever, convinced that R+L = J, especially after reading that when D&D met GRRM the frist time, George asked them, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" They answered, and George agreed to work with them.

[walket]

My biggest problem with taking out the three betrayals is it ruins Dany's character in the later books. No one will understand why she sends Jorah away, because the whole reason was that Dany thought it was a betrayal. It'll also mean that Dany won't have a reason to be as paranoid in later seasons. I actually liked how her paranoia borders on Targ insanity. She can't trust anyone because of the three treasons. Without the prophecies, the show can't portray that, and makes Dany a much more shallow character.

[Abyssalix]

i too was disappointed by the outcome of the house of the undying, but i think they did it because if they showed us the prophecies it would be too obvious later.

[Nedmight]

Did no one find it strange that the only warlock present was Pyat Pree? After she had killed him, surely the other warlocks would try to stop her or did they hide out of fear?

[lifefullofwords]

Other than cutting the three betrayals prophecy, which I will never understand, I have no issues with the changes they made to the House of the Undying sequence. But then again I'm not one of those people that holds the original text as some sacred document that is compromised by any kind of change. I think that adaptations where nothing changes lack imagination and are usually quite dull. So other than skipping a prophecy that seems quite important I actually like the changes D&D made. It's also important to keep in mind that since GoT is a TV show they are already doing a lot on a remarkably small budget (compared to movies anyway). There's no way the entire House of the Undying bit could be shot exactly as it was in the book given the financial constraints they're under.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I was very disappointed with the House of Undying scene - but reading between the lines, the show version did contain its fair share of foreshadowing.

I've probably said this at least half a dozen times now on some other threads, but did anyone notice a blue rose enclosed within the emblem of the Seven Kingdoms in the throne room?

Along with the room besieged by snow and the wall outside, could this be a hint as to who might be heading for the Iron throne?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

My biggest problem with taking out the three betrayals is it ruins Dany's character in the later books. No one will understand why she sends Jorah away, because the whole reason was that Dany thought it was a betrayal. It'll also mean that Dany won't have a reason to be as paranoid in later seasons. I actually liked how her paranoia borders on Targ insanity. She can't trust anyone because of the three treasons. Without the prophecies, the show can't portray that, and makes Dany a much more shallow character.

This, I agree with. They wouldn't have needed to show all the prophecies but they could have shown the three betrayals.

The same goes for flashbacks of Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert, Brandon and Rikkard. If Jon is ever revealed as the son of R+L, it might mean very little to the viewers now and the significance will be lost on many, because they haven't been provided with the backdrop to the events of Game of Thrones as the book readers have.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

So....yeah. The first several times I watched this episode, I, like many, kept thinking of all the things missing, even though I know they weren't possible without being both massively spoilerish and completely confusing to non-book readers. Still I didn't realize how much I was allowing that to cloud my judgement, and blind me from what was right there on the screen.

Then last night, after rewatching all of season 2 in prep for 3, and just to get my fix while these last two weeks crawl by, I finally just watched it, for it's own sake, just to enjoy the episode, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. We got a LOT of visions, and prophecies:

• KL is a burned-out ruin, along the lines of Harrenhall. (Dragons.)
  

• KL is a uselss husk and therefore, unimportant.
  

• (Jon) Snow on the Iron Throne
  

• Dany reaches for, but doesn't touch The Iron Throne - it will never be her's (directly), she has more important things to attend to (those she loves.)
  

• Dany must go beyond The Wall to find her Sun(Son)-and-Stars (Jon)
  

• Dany's Sun/Son-and-Stars is not dead, though many believe him to be. (Jon.) (Also she believes she is now unable to have a child.... but really can, as long as she finds Jon, north of The Wall.)
  

• Is that the state Dany will find Jon (the rightful heir to the the 7K) in when she arrives?
  

• "Until the Sun rises in the West, and sets in the East, until the rivers run dry, and the mountains blow like leaves in the wind...." kind of describes the frozen tundra of the north polar region (where every direction is south so east and west are wherever you really want them to be, the sun never sets or rises in summer, the rivers are dry with ice, and there is nothing but mountains of blowing snow.)
  

I am now, more than ever, convinced that R+L = J, especially after reading that when D&D met GRRM the frist time, George asked them, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" They answered, and George agreed to work with them.

Wonderful observations.

[TheReal_Rebel]

So....yeah. The first several times I watched this episode, I, like many, kept thinking of all the things missing, even though I know they weren't possible without being both massively spoilerish and completely confusing to non-book readers. Still I didn't realize how much I was allowing that to cloud my judgement, and blind me from what was right there on the screen.Then last night, after rewatching all of season 2 in prep for 3, and just to get my fix while these last two weeks crawl by, I finally just watched it, for it's own sake, just to enjoy the episode, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. We got a LOT of visions, and prophecies:

• KL is a burned-out ruin, along the lines of Harrenhall. (Dragons.)

• KL is a uselss husk and therefore, unimportant.

• (Jon) Snow on the Iron Throne

• Dany reaches for, but doesn't touch The Iron Throne - it will never be her's (directly), she has more important things to attend to (those she loves.)

• Dany must go beyond The Wall to find her Sun(Son)-and-Stars (Jon)

• Dany's Sun/Son-and-Stars is not dead, though many believe him to be. (Jon.) (Also she believes she is now unable to have a child.... but really can, as long as she finds Jon, north of The Wall.)

• Is that the state Dany will find Jon (the rightful heir to the the 7K) in when she arrives?

• "Until the Sun rises in the West, and sets in the East, until the rivers run dry, and the mountains blow like leaves in the wind...." kind of describes the frozen tundra of the north polar region (where every direction is south so east and west are wherever you really want them to be, the sun never sets or rises in summer, the rivers are dry with ice, and there is nothing but mountains of blowing snow.)

I am now, more than ever, convinced that R+L = J, especially after reading that when D&D met GRRM the frist time, George asked them, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" They answered, and George agreed to work with them.

I agree. Wonderful observations! Also apparently you are the only one who didn't whine about how a TV series is not like a book.

Thank you for discussing the thing I most wanted to discuss --what the Throne Room scene portends.

I'm still uncertain about the S1 Throne Room scene with Danearys.

I know the ceiling was burnt, probably Dragon fire, and at first I took what was falling, and covering the throne, as white ash soot. But looking at it again it seems like snow. Or a mixture of both.

As you pointed out, Dani reaches to touch the iron Throne but she hears her Dragons and turns to leave while Snow remains falling on the it. So I think the show gave the hint. But many may not want to take it