[Book Spoilers] Robb's Wedding

[kingkiller]

this was a secret wedding that was pretty much a snap decision, my guess is robb or talisa really did not care about which religion presided over their wedding. young dumb and in love. also, robb follows the old gods and talisa probably follows one of the many religions in essos- it's entirely possible that the choice was a compromise between two people of different religions. the same thing happens every day.

you say robb's bannermen will never accept their lord being a worshiper of the seven. i disagree, the northmen are more loyal than that and if they have any gripe, it will be that he broke his oath to the freys and have now put the rest of them in a huge bind.

also about the karstark comment about giving his heart to the father, i took it as him saying he would offer up his heart to a God he didn't even believe in to get his son back and betray his religion if that's what it took.

finally we see multiple instances of people claiming to pray to the old gods AND the new all over the books and in the show. it doesn't seem to matter if you worship one or both sets of gods. it isn't a big deal.

it should also be noted that the north has lived in westeros for thousands of years with the followers of the seven and to my knowledge there hasn't been a religious war in westeros in thousands of years. it's just not that big a deal.

[mcb]

This really pissed me off. I literally face-palmed myself while watching this scene. King of winter and follower of old gods reciting southern words in his own marriage :bang: . This will cause the confusion to the viewers and abolish the religion difference between south and north and hence the culture.

I think that writers are making real efforts to make Starks less sympathetic. In books, Robb married Jane because he deflowered her in his hour of grievance (over his brothers death). Certainly it was a bad decision and Fray got an excuse for Red Wedding but one can sympathetic with Robb that anyone can make mistakes in such situation. Now TV Robb, marries this girl just to spite his mother and for love. Not cool.

Nah. Book Robb married Jeyne for exactly the same reason. "I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else", he said right before introducing his new wife. Book Robb decided to go full retard off-screen, TV Robb went full retard on screen, the only significant difference.

I'm not saying his self-destruction on the show doesn't suck. It does, very badly. I'm saying it sucked already in the book.

[Morrigan]

Robb's mom follows the seven and there was a Sept at Winterfell. Heck, Sansa very openly worships the seven in the book series. The fact that Robb was married by a septon is perfectly within the realm of plausibility.

Except, you know, that he's the King in the North and that even in the previous season you have Lord Umber say, "Even their gods are wrong!". The TV show writers contradicting their own writing.

Robb's storyline has unfortuneately been the worst of the season and they made the worst possible change to his story last night. I'm not talking about marrying under the light of the seven but the fact that he married out of selfishness and pettiness instead of honor. Robb was stupid to marry Jeyne in the books but at least it was out of a misplace sense of honor. He didn't want to dishonor Jeyne. Stupid but understandable. TV Robb though...he gets turned on by watching Talisa amputate a guys foot, talks endlessly with her, gets pissed off with his mom, and then declares he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl, has sex with Talisa, and then decides to marry her after getting pissy with his mom again.

Completely agree. It was an utterly garbage storyline without a single redeeming value. It amazes me that they even had Catelyn present and remind him of his duty, and then even explain that loveless arranged marriage can turn into loving ones, and make all these nice and rational points, only to have Robb say "F U mom" and walk out like a stupid brat. How insulting to the son of Ned Stark.

Not only have they been ignoring the Riverlands this season but they've seemingly been ignoring Robb's actual agreement with the Freys. The bridge was the pressing issue to be certain but despite the claims of Robb and Talisa, he didn't agree to the marriage pact just to cross a bridge. He entered it so he could bring thousands of Frey forces under his command. But he thew that all away without even struggling with his decision. He complains that his father is dead but how is marrying a woman who has less military value than Book Jeyne going to help his cause? TV Robb calls Jaime an oathbreaker but he's no different now. He's not even half as honorable as his father.

Yup. The whole "it must be an important bridge" line pissed me off the other day. How about the thousands of Frey soldiers?

And since she's apparently not a Westerling, how will the Rains of Castamere at the Red Wedding have any significance?

[dtones520]

Except, you know, that he's the King in the North and that even in the previous season you have Lord Umber say, "Even their gods are wrong!". The TV show writers contradicting their own writing.

Completely agree. It was an utterly garbage storyline without a single redeeming value. It amazes me that they even had Catelyn present and remind him of his duty, and then even explain that loveless arranged marriage can turn into loving ones, and make all these nice and rational points, only to have Robb say "F U mom" and walk out like a stupid brat. How insulting to the son of Ned Stark.

Yup. The whole "it must be an important bridge" line pissed me off the other day. How about the thousands of Frey soldiers?

And since she's apparently not a Westerling, how will the Rains of Castamere at the Red Wedding have any significance?

The Frey soldiers were a bonus of getting the Freys on their side, the sole purpose was to cross the Twins. They were going south with or without the Freys, but they couldn't go south without getting passage granted by Lord Walder.

The Rains of Castamere is about Lord Tywin obliterating a house for opposing him, the Rains of Castamere is still a perfect song for the Red Wedding.

[ViserionsFire]

who is this talissa wench??? it is obviously jeyne but why hasnt that been established yet? i mean come on theres enough drama in robb marrying a daughter of the lannister bannermen but still...you dont have to make her reveal it after the wedding thus creating unnecessary drama from thin air. plus robb doesnt even know about his brothers supposed deaths, he wasnt injured and nursed back to health by jeyne, he didnt have an internal struggle to do the right thing and marry jeyne after he took her. plus, is richard madden going to grow out his hair for season 3, if i recall correctly robb had badass long hair and he had a bitchin crown too. it just added to his awesomeness and he really became like a king of winter from old with that straight winter swag.

This Talisa thing has baffled me too. So I tried to think ahead to next season. Should Talisa actually be Jeyne Westerling, this would really set up an even bigger tragedy than the Red Wedding in the book should her identity be revealed there. Tywin would then show how he kept the Seven Kingdoms in order while Hand of the King during most of Jeahaerys reign. Not through battle strategy alone but knowing and using all his resources. The audience would then truly experience the Bolton treachery and as member of a house that is bannerman to the Lannisters, Jeyne Westerling would become the greatest deceiver ever and forever hated by Northmen for her act as Talisa.

[Magjee]

It doesnt make any sense as far as the books go.

For TV, whatever, the religions are confusing enough for viewers as it is.

[dtones520]

So, please explain to me how this is worse than Ned getting married in a Sept? Robb gets married in front of a tree, likely, in a Southron Godswood. He says some vows to the Seven, considering Ned got married in a sept I'm guessing he said similar vows. You all are acting like Robb ran off and found some sept and got married in it, which someone who took the Seven would likely do. Instead he gets a septon to oversee the marriage in front of a tree at night. There are two aspects of two religions at play here, which are the two religions his parents take. Talisa/Jeyne probably follows the Seven. I'm not sure what is wrong with this scene?

Seriously, explain to me how you pictured book Robb's wedding. Considering that there are no/few Weirwoods in the south, Jeyne followed the Seven, I'm guessing that Robb's book marriage was quite similar. So please enlighten me on how this scene differed from how you pictured the books. No one has done that yet.

[Darth Pipes]

Robb's decision to get married in secret even comes across as cowardly. He literally did it behind his bannermen's backs.

The deal with Frey was so they could cross the bridge. No doubt about that. But it also formed the alliance between the Winterfell, Riverrun, and the Twins. By breaking the pact, he threw that alliance away. Which included nearly 20% of his forces.

[Tenlaar]

also about the karstark comment about giving his heart to the father, i took it as him saying he would offer up his heart to a God he didn't even believe in to get his son back and betray his religion if that's what it took.

That is how I saw that, myself. Basically the Northern Westeros version of saying "I'd sell my soul to the Devil."

Except, you know, that he's the King in the North and that even in the previous season you have Lord Umber say, "Even their gods are wrong!". The TV show writers contradicting their own writing.

I will admit, I can't remember where exactly they were when Lord Umber said that. Was it in Winterfell, the home of his liege lord, which had a sept in it? Was it in front of the wife of his liege lord, who worshipped the seven? Maybe in front of the children of his liege lord, who were raised with both the old gods and the new?

[Jolene Brown]

Robb's decision to get married in secret even comes across as cowardly. He literally did it behind his bannermen's backs.

The deal with Frey was so they could cross the bridge. No doubt about that. But it also formed the alliance between the Winterfell, Riverrun, and the Twins. By breaking the pact, he threw that alliance away. Which included nearly 20% of his forces.

This was something that was really emphasized by Catelyn when Robb came back and she found out about the wedding. I love the line where she says, "Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?" Sigh. I also miss the way he sort of tricked her into having to be understanding about Jeyne by being understanding himself about Jaime's release. That was some classic teenager/parent manipulation.

[VivaVictarion2]

They wouldn't even have needed a weirwood, just a godswood.

You know, leading up to the first season, I remember hearing interviews with Benioff and Weis where they talked about how much they loved the books. Benioff (i think) in particular said it was, to paraphrase, one of the greatest things he's ever read. Liar. Ignoring the asoiaf mythos and continuity is not something a fan would do. I'm not talking about changes to the plot for realistic budgetary/showbiz/scheduling/whatever demands. Hell, Im not even talking about their whitewashing of several characters (jon,arya,tyrion,robb oops just talked about it). Things like the robb-talissa septon marriage help me to realize that the creators of the asoiaf adaptation are not true fans of asoiaf.

[Ghost Rider]

It's not as if they had to be married immediately.

While I was quite surprised at the "Faith" wedding ceremony, I was more shocked at the fact of the marriage itself. Obviously being a book reader I knew it was bound to come up, but I thought they'd give some reason for why Robb would marry Talisa.

So far the story goes: he falls in love with a beautiful camp follower (that's what battlefield nurses were, right?) and of course they get into each others pants. So where does the marriage come in? Talisa certainly didn't look like an innocent virgin to me and if that should be the reason for marriage they should have mentioned it.

Else if it's "just love"... even from a modern pov marriage doesn't follow straight from love necessarily. Love doesn't need marriage, it can well exist without. So if the modern pov doesn't work, let's work from a kind of medieval view, but there's the problem that love and marriage aren't connected at all. In Robb's mind there shouldn't be a close association between (romantic) love and marriage, that's a 19th century bourgeois thought.

If you want to cite the relationship between Ned and Cat as a point in favor for love in matrimony, it's actually a point against it, because they "learnt to love each other", i.e. it's a kind of family love that very often exists in happy longterm relationships.

So am I the only one puzzled as to why Robb married Talisa?

Edited for wrong word usage

[madman2711]

i think that the could get married in front of the 7 but at least mention the old gods

what really bothered me is the haste of the marriage and Cat just sitting and getting bashed by her son and doing nothing in contrast the psycho bratt Jeoff didnt break his vow about sansa untill the high septon and the king's council allowed him to marry margey tyrell

i mean the public #1 hate character that beheads Ned and does only what he wishes keeps his vows till the official annoulment and mr King in the North - mini Ned Stark (all about honor and stuff) doesn keep his vow not for a womans honor but for love (this is the cheesiest cliche ever)

at least book robb was in his way a honorable men breaking a vow because he broke a maid but TV Robb is about love (as i said in another thred Tulissa doesnt even look or act as a maid so she might be a wench after all) so his attitude is F U all am getting married for love

this is not a 21st century storry but a medieval fantasy marring for love is stupid and not acceptable by their stantards look what R+L got for their love story or Tyrion and Tysha

also on a more funny topic i just wanted to see the full nuptial party with the cape around the shoulders and the strip naked part done by Greatjon along with rude sex jokes just like the book

it was quite a fun part even on the RW chapter, and i think Umber would have hated Robb for not doing that naked part that he loves to do on all weddings including Nedd and Cat

[lady_winterborn]

I really couldn't enjoy their wedding (well, how could concerning what's going to happen because of this) because I wondered the whole time why they don't marry according to Old Gods customs.

[Morrigan]

The Rains of Castamere is about Lord Tywin obliterating a house for opposing him, the Rains of Castamere is still a perfect song for the Red Wedding.

Meh. The songs were about vassal houses to Lannister, the Reynes and the Tarbeck. Not about equal great houses that eventually warred with Lannister (otherwise they'd have to crush the Tyrells who sided with the Targaryens, etc). When Tyrion learns of Robb's folly from his father, he's baffled at the Westerlings for going along with it. "Have they forgotten what happened at Castamere?", he wonders. So I guess it still fits because of the whole "Lannister victory" theme, but not nearly as much. The dialogue between Tyrion and Tywin was great foreshadowing.

[Jolene Brown]

Plus, it's so interesting later when you get little hints that the Westerlings are not out of favor - I feel like there was something else even before the pardons they receive and Rolph Spicer being given Castamere. Also, Tywin sent out Samwell Spicer to look for Jaime in the riverlands, we find out later. I love the subtle details with this story. Do I think Tywin somehow magically set up Robb to fall in love with Jeyne in the first place? No. But I love that he is just bad enough and manipulative enough that there is a part of me that thinks he could have... that we'll never know for 100% sure.

[StarkWard]

So am I the only one puzzled as to why Robb married Talisa?

We can still use the argument in the books that Robb was honor-bound to marry her because they had sex.

As for why of the Faith wedding in front of a tree (not a heart tree), it can be said that it was the next best thing there was, there being almost no godswood in the south. Sort of like a civil wedding until they could have something proper (Church/North wedding).

[Les Berceaux]

Robb's decision to get married in secret even comes across as cowardly. He literally did it behind his bannermen's backs.

The deal with Frey was so they could cross the bridge. No doubt about that. But it also formed the alliance between the Winterfell, Riverrun, and the Twins. By breaking the pact, he threw that alliance away. Which included nearly 20% of his forces.

The Whispering Wood and subsequent Battle of Riverrun forged the alliance between Winterfell and Riverrun, in my opinion. (Not to mention the fact that Robb Stark is Catelyn Tully's son)

I know a lot of people have been railing about the House of the Undying scene as the largest outrage, but for me it was this. I had high hopes for Robb's extended screen time this season (extended being that we only have the books to compare it to). Robb and Talisa's first scene was rife with overwrought tropes, but I forgave it eventually. Talisa's high point for me was her monologue about her brother drowning. I, as pretty much all book readers, noted the subtle hints when The Crag was mentioned, but I feel like that part of their story never took off like any of us hoped it would. That's my first disappointment.

My second is that Robb never, not once, mentioned Jon and the rules regarding bastards when he justified marrying Talisa (*sigh* do we really have to call her that?). I would probably have forgiven the misguided arc then and there if they had put in the discussion of him marrying her because of honor, blah blah blah. It would have also mirrored nicely with Jon's monologue from season one about why he chose not to have sex with Ros in Winterfell.

[Ghost Rider]

We can still use the argument in the books that Robb was honor-bound to marry her because they had sex.

We could if we wanted to make up excuses for sloppy writing. :) If he feels honor-bound to marry her, they have to mention it. I didn't hear him or her mention it, not even during his talk to Cat which would have been the appropriate place.

As the story is now, he marries a camp follower from abroad without any reason save he loves her and all else be damned. I am mostly not too concerned for his character who is 2nd tier anyway, but for the worldbuilding implications.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

No. His story will end up being a tragedy regardless.

It will be far less tragic than it should be.

And the fact that it was for love likely makes it even more real for most people watching the show as it's something they can relate to.

We're not meant to relate to Robb. We're meant to sympathise with him, and him acting like a spoiled child is not the way to do this.

Plus, unlike in the book where all we see is Robb leave for the Crag, come back married... we actually got to see the reason for his eventual downfall.

On of the best things in ACOK was the skill with which Robb's story was told offstage. I understand why he had to be in the TV show, but my god did they do it badly.

Some times, the show can do a story more justice. Robbs is definitely one of those, IMO. We got to see a story from him instead of merely hearing/seeing things from Catelyn's perspective.

I don't have a problem with us seeing the story, I have a problem with the appalling way in which it has been written.