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[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand


xythil

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I'm really disappointed by all of the Jon/Halfhand interactions. First of all, they needed to make him a badass. They didn't have to show him fighting Wildlings or anything like that, it could have been just conversation between...I don't know...Edd and Sam. " Hey, you know what? I heard this guy caught a Wildlings' axe with his hand when he was ambushed once. Then he killed all of the Wildlings. And then a few more " . Or something along those lines.

And the attack? The whole scene sucked. The few lines that Rattleshirt also disappointed me. Especially the " Let them fight " thing. He just made that decision on a whim? I don't know, it sounded kinda ridiculous to me. And the fight scene could have been salvaged by one line. " You must not falter...whatever is asked of you " . Qhorin could have said that to Jon as he was dying. I didn't see the point of the whole " We are the watchers on the Wall " thing, and it too sounded stupid to me.

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They completely destroyed Jon Snow's story, and I think his part in ACOK was the best of his story arc. Well, Qhorin was not only a competent ranger, he was the best in the NW, and the best swordsman. Nobody would believe that a 15 years old could defeat him!!! (well, I guess 18 in the show, but not even then). I mean come on, Mance even asks how could Jon defeat the Qhorin, only when he hears about Ghost he believes it. So yeah, Qhorin looks like an idiot, and Jon like the biggest idiot in all of ASOIAF. I mean, I looked very carefuly to the scene, Jon didn't kill him because he figured out what Qhorin wanted of him, no, he did it because Qhorin kept making him angry.... so, Jon looks like a spoiled little brat!! WHY WHY WHY did they destroy Jon's story ???? it was so good in the book :( all the changes they made, they did them just because they though they could improve the story.... not because of the translation from book to screen. DAMN D&D!!! (maybe I will calm down in a couple of days and change my mind)

I doubt it because you are completely correct. Of all the changes this season this was the worst and made the least sense. And yeah, where is Ghost?

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You all saying you didn't understand it need to watch the previous two episodes when you are sober and pay attention. I have never read the books and it was clear as day what was taking place.

I think the changes from the book to tv were quite necessary as there was a small window of time given to Jon Snow while he was North of the Wall. Hell even his scenes with Ygritte felt short compared to everything else that was going on. I understand you hate the changes made, but the fact that the result is still the same should allow you to appreciate the subtle differences.

I for one bet that if you watched LotR and attempted to tell me there are fewer changes in those movies compared to the books you would be dead wrong. As an avid Tolkien fan there were so many huge changes I cannot even list them all to you. But the changes were made and after the completiion of the trilogy, it felt like a solid, ableit condensed version of LotR. Maybe give this show a chance to at least display the first episodes of Season 3 before you judge this episode so harshly.

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They also didn't really explain why the wildlings and particularly Rattleshirt would set Jon free just because Qhorin attacked him. Jon still hasn't even said he wishes to join them, in comparison to the books where Jon says he will join them and then Rattleshirt tells him to kill Qhorin, and Rattleshirt still doesn't ever trust him.

Of course killing TV Qhorin who has been captured already isn't as impressive as killing Qhorin, best ranger in the watch anyway. The sad thing is that it wouldn't have taken any more screen time or budget to keep it like the books minus Ghost helping Jon.

Agree 100%. Jon never expressed any desire to join the wildings, and really, what's so impressive about killing Qhorin? (in the show). He was already captured by the wildings, so they could have done away with him whenver they wanted to. Plus, show Qhorin is a complete nincompoop who gets all his rangers killed and himself captured simply because he decided to let Jon kill Ygritte. And of course, Qhorin doesn't actually watch Jon go through with it, because I don't know why. It's clear in teh books, but in teh show, Qhorin is just an idiot and a crap ranger.

Jon's story was really, really butchered this season. The only reason I can see for him getting captured so early was to have more Ygritte, which was not a good trade off for the mangling of his story and character. Why even add more Ygritte, when if ASOS is two seasons, she's going to be around for a good while.

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Agree 100%. Jon never expressed any desire to join the wildings, and really, what's so impressive about killing Qhorin? (in the show). He was already captured by the wildings, so they could have done away with him whenver they wanted to. Plus, show Qhorin is a complete nincompoop who gets all his rangers killed and himself captured simply because he decided to let Jon kill Ygritte. And of course, Qhorin doesn't actually watch Jon go through with it, because I don't know why. It's clear in teh books, but in teh show, Qhorin is just an idiot and a crap ranger.

Jon's story was really, really butchered this season. The only reason I can see for him getting captured so early was to have more Ygritte, which was not a good trade off for the mangling of his story and character. Why even add more Ygritte, when if ASOS is two seasons, she's going to be around for a good while.

Perhaps it is because her storyline with Jon has so much influence on Jon for the rest of the series...Perhaps GRRM felt she was more important to the development of Jon Snow than the Halfhand was.

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OK... Here is the question...

If we as book readers know that Jon and the Halfhand had a plan that Jon would kill Qhorin to gain the trust of the wildlings so he could spy on them and at least one of them would live.

and...

People who did not read the books almost unanimously came to the same conclusion.

and...

The actors know the same thing and are speaking about it.

What is the problem?

Complaints about losing plot with Qhorin are perfectly legitimate gripes. I can even agree that I would have liked to have the time this year to see a more accurate portrayal. What I can't agree with is that the show somehow "confused" the viewers and the motivation for Jon Snow's character was completely changed because everyone has the same opinion of his motivation whether we read the books or didn't.

Because it was handled poorly and clumsily. Even if the nonbook readers understood what happened, and I doubt all of them did, it was still a lame scene with almost no setup or dramatic payoff. It just happens. I mean, did anyone actually care that Qhorin died, or feel for Jon in having to kill his mentor? Probably not, because on the show the only setup for the kill is one offhand comment by Qhorin two episodes prior.

Qhorin's plan doesn't even make that much sense on teh show. I don't think the wildings would just accept Jon out of nowhere because he kills an already captured Qhorin in a seeming fit of self-defense/anger. In the book, Qhorin knows they'll the wildings will require Jon to kill him; here, seems more like's he's just taking a guess and the wildings stupidly fell for it.

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Jon clearly didn't have a clue what was happening till Qhorin's last dying words. Then he just looked confused.

TV Jon is an idiot.

Or maybe you are not watching close enough? Or Kit is a shit actor? I don't know for sure...but I can tell you that you need to watcha few episodes that came before this and you will see that Jon knew all along.

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Perhaps it is because her storyline with Jon has so much influence on Jon for the rest of the series...Perhaps GRRM felt she was more important to the development of Jon Snow than the Halfhand was.

GRRM didn't feel that way in book 2, since Ygritte is barely in it, and he didn't write any episode that even featured Jon Snow. Plus, what character development was gained by Jon Snow wandering around with Ygritte like an idiot for two whole episodes? It really only shows what a complete moron he is in the show.

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Does anyone actually believe Mance would have allowed Jon and Qhorin to live if they made it to the camp alive? I dont think so, and several quotes from past episodes back me up. I think most of you need to re-watch the episodes.

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GRRM didn't feel that way in book 2, since Ygritte is barely in it, and he didn't write any episode that even featured Jon Snow. Plus, what character development was gained by Jon Snow wandering around with Ygritte like an idiot for two whole episodes? It really only shows what a complete moron he is in the show.

Ever heard the saying hindsight is 20/20? Perhaps George knew he made a mistake putting so much emphasis on the whole Qhorin thing (or the producers believed so). After all he is a minor character that is introduced and is killed in less than one season. Why would a character like that need more screen time? Clearly Ygritte is the more important of the two even if you don't want to admit it.

If they would have given Qhorin an intro last season I would agree, but he was in a grand total of what, 3-4 episodes?? I don't think expanding his character would do the tv show any good.

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Does anyone actually believe Mance would have allowed Jon and Qhorin to live if they made it to the camp alive? I dont think so, and several quotes from past episodes back me up.

What's your point? Whether Mance would have allowed Jon and Qhorin to live or not has nothing to with how badly the writers bungled this story.

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Ever heard the saying hindsight is 20/20? Perhaps George knew he made a mistake putting so much emphasis on the whole Qhorin thing. After all he is a minor character that is introduced and is killed in less than one season. Why would a character like that need more screen time? Clearly Ygritte is the more important of the two even if you don't want to admit it.

Perhaps if they would have gave Qhorin an intro last season I would agree, but since he was in a grand total of what, 3-4 episodes I don't think expanding his character would do the tv show any good.

Well, they didn't need to make Qhorin an absolute idiot. And once again, what was gained from those Jon Ygritte scenes. All they did was wander around the snow and Jon looked like an idiot. And as I said above, Ygritte will have plenty of screen time next season, so in my opinion these scenes were a waste that could have been better spent keeping the more dramatic version from teh book.

I don't care if George knew he made a mistake with Ygritte (I highly doubt he approves of how the writers mangled Jon's story), I thought Jon's whole arc this season was awful. He didn't do anything except mope around and look like a moron with everyone he interacted with.

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GRRM didn't feel that way in book 2, since Ygritte is barely in it, and he didn't write any episode that even featured Jon Snow. Plus, what character development was gained by Jon Snow wandering around with Ygritte like an idiot for two whole episodes? It really only shows what a complete moron he is in the show.

Unlike the genius who wants to send men across a blizzard to Hardhomme when his fleet has been wiped out and the place is surrounded by Others.

Also unlike the guy who can't tell when he has pissed his men off enough to shove knives in him.

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You all saying you didn't understand it need to watch the previous two episodes when you are sober and pay attention. I have never read the books and it was clear as day what was taking place.

I think the changes from the book to tv were quite necessary as there was a small window of time given to Jon Snow while he was North of the Wall. Hell even his scenes with Ygritte felt short compared to everything else that was going on. I understand you hate the changes made, but the fact that the result is still the same should allow you to appreciate the subtle differences.

I for one bet that if you watched LotR and attempted to tell me there are fewer changes in those movies compared to the books you would be dead wrong. As an avid Tolkien fan there were so many huge changes I cannot even list them all to you. But the changes were made and after the completiion of the trilogy, it felt like a solid, ableit condensed version of LotR. Maybe give this show a chance to at least display the first episodes of Season 3 before you judge this episode so harshly.

You're playing a dangerous game posting in here without having read the books. There are spoilers everywhere. For your own good, avoid this forum completely. Certainly avoid any topic titled "spoilers".

Most people here accept changes are needing and actually welcome them if they improve the story. They don't always improve it though and as avid fans of the books we are well entitled to our criticism. If fans like us didn't exist then this show would not exist. That's no reason to feel entitled but if people want to have a moan about something they love being changed a lot then so be it.

You claim not to have read the books? Then you have a very little frame of reference here. I'm always eager to know what non-readers think of the show but without having both read and seen the show you can't really make claims that specific changes were necessary. How do you know that? The time frame given to Jon's scenes was small? Give him extra screen time then instead of giving it to Ros. Jon is arguably one of the main and certainly most interesting characters, so he shouldn't be shunted to the back so to speak.

Regarding the scene itself I think it required more than the Halfhand muttering about Jon turning the cloak and never actually ordering him to kill him. What if he just meant to have a wee scrap? Fair enough he was going at Jon with a sword but the fact remains that Jon's stupidity (and arguably Qhorins too) got the other Rangers killed. In the book that doesn't happen. We had season 1 of Jon being a bumbling idiot that needed to grow up. Now we get it again but worse. He's turning into Jesse Fucking Pinkman.

I'm a huge Tolkien fan myself and most of the changes made to LoTR were for the best. My biggest complaint there was the screen time given to pishy romance stories like Aragorn and Eowyn when it could have been put to better use elsewhere. Quite the same with Robb and Talissa really.

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What's your point? Whether Mance would have allowed Jon and Qhorin to live or not has nothing to with how badly the writers bungled this story.

My point is that Qhorin knew they were doomed unless they tried to convince the wildlings Jon was a traitor. Only one had a chance of survival and that was Jon. Plus Qhorin was in for a lot of torture at the hands of Mance and those he fought against. A very slow painful death. To die a quick death at the hands of Jon Snow and to possibly gain a mole in the wildling ranks displays Qhorins strategy and utter brilliance. The fact that they both know they are deadmen has a lot to do with the decisions and "deal" that gets made between Jon & Qhorin. I don't know why you are arguing that the writers bungled the story because you couldn't follow it. Take a look in the mirror first before casting blame outward.

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