[Book Spoilers] Qhorin Half-Brain..err I mean Half-Hand

[KC_Accidental]

I think the Jon and Ygritte scenes served the purpose of providing more insight (and a reminder) into the Wildlings before they have a bigger part to play next season. I think that was well done. However it doesn't change the fact that it was completely stupid and weird that Qhorin is like "okcheersbye" as soon as Jon says he'll kill her. There is no sense in that. They are beyond the Wall in enemy territory, they would not leave a rookie who has never been beyond the wall alone with a Wildling. It is retarded.

It also doesn't change the fact that Qhorin only slightly hinted that Jon had to turn cloak. He certainly didn't order him to kill him. In the books when the shit hits the fan with Jon's turn cloakery, at least Jon can say that he was ordered to do it by the best ranger in the Nightswatch, a commander and legend. He actually ordered him to do it.

[Esellesar]

Freerider, you mentioned something from LotR as trivial Aragorn and Eowyn. I am thinking much larger, such as leaving the Scourging of the Shire out of the movies or the changes to Helms Deep for that matter. Just because you believe the changes were for the better does not mean they were. Get off your high horse my friend, you don't get to decide what changes were for the best, and that goes for me as well.

I am not worried about spoilers, I have read these forums for the last year and am well versed in nearly all that takes place. So yes, i do have some point of reference even though I have yet to read the books.

[Arrogant Bastard]

My point is that Qhorin knew they were doomed unless they tried to convince the wildlings Jon was a traitor. Only one had a chance of survival and that was Jon. Plus Qhorin was in for a lot of torture at the hands of Mance and those he fought against. A very slow painful death. To die a quick death at the hands of Jon Snow and to possibly gain a mole in the wildling ranks displays Qhorins strategy and utter brilliance. The fact that they both know they are deadmen has a lot to do with the decisions and "deal" that gets made between Jon & Qhorin. I don't know why you are arguing that the writers bungled the story because you couldn't follow it. Take a look in the mirror first before casting blame outward.

I can follow the story just fine. I know why Jon killed Qhorin, and your whole post is stuff everybody here already knows, and unlike you, we've read the books and don't pretend to be an expert. That doesn't change the fact they completely bungled the way in which it was done. I don't care if the resullt is the same; the way in which it happened was retarded. Don't know why I'm bothering with you, you'll just come up with more crap about how anyone that doesn't like the show doesn't understand it.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

"We are the watchers on the wall"...thats all I needed sent chills down my spine.

[Esellesar]

I can follow the story just fine. I know why Jon killed Qhorin, and your whole post is stuff everybody here already knows, and unlike you, we've read the books and don't pretend to be an expert. That doesn't change the fact they completely bungled the way in which it was done. I don't care if the resullt is the same; the way in which it happened was retarded. Don't know why I'm bothering with you, you'll just come up with more crap about how anyone that doesn't like the show doesn't understand it.

I said in an earlier post that I understand your reasons for hating changes from the book because I have been there, I even gave an example (LotR). Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. I am not pretending to be an expert but I am merely stating that I have a deeper understanding of these books than your average non-book reader. That is all.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I said in an earlier post that I understand your reasons for hating changes from the book because I have been there, I even gave an example (LotR). Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. I am not pretending to be an expert but I am merely stating that I have a deeper understanding of these books than your average non-book reader. That is all.

That wasn't my post you were responding to so I didn't read it. And no, that's not all you're doing. You're making idiotic statements that anyone who didn't like the changes in the Qhorin Jon storyline "don't understand it" or "couldn't follow it". Just because Jon kills Qhorin like in the book, that doesn't mean the writers didn't drop the ball. I think they did, in a big way, as the scene lacked any dramatic setup and didn't even make a whole of sense.

[Esellesar]

I agree that it didn't have a dramatic build up, but I was all worked up because half the posters on the first page said they didn't follow it. If you thought I was referring to you earlier, that is my mistake for not being a little more clear. My statements are not idiotic, they are the truth. Would you like me to quote all those on the first page who "didnt follow" Jon and Qhorins storyline.

I thought you were one of those people, but it seems you just dislike the entire Jon Snow storyline in the show. Maybe just fast forward through it? hah

[Howdyphillip]

Try mentioning something from the right book. Jon Snow is nowhere near as big a boob in ACOK as he is in season 2.

There are very few chapters with John Snow in them in ACoK... In none of these chapters would I equate him to Sherlock Holmes. As a matter of fact, the more chapters that are dedicated to him, the dumber he looks in general. It is kind of like more time spent with him on the TV show this year made him look dumber than the books.

[KC_Accidental]

So you criticise people here for complaining about changes when you had your own hang ups about changes in LoTR? Despite saying nobody can decide what changes were for the best? There's no high horse here, just opinions. And we are all entitled to them. You are contradicting yourself though by insinuating the same but at the same time faulting us for having hang ups about this.

You have not read the books but presumably just skimmed over spoilers, key events and peoples opinions. I'm sorry but I can't take that seriously. You say people are too stupid to understand a scene that they actually understand more than you do. We have read the books and know Jon Snow's character more than you do, because we've read countless chapters from his point of view. You have not. That cannot be dismissed as being on a high horse because unlike opinions about changes, that is fact. Not in the slightest saying you can't comment on these things, just that you lack some credibility when being so adamant on whether the changes were for the better when you have only read a summary of events and not the whole thing.

You're an avid Tolkien fan? Would you be fine with being lectured to by someone who only heard about the Scouring of the Shire? For the record as much as I enjoyed that chapter I can completely understand why it was removed. Same with Tom Bombadil. I have no hang ups about changes like that because it made sense. Constant extra time spent on Eowyns fascination with Aragorn was not important to the overall story however. It is a side story and I think too much time was spent on it to appeal to romantics. Other than that (a very minor quibble) I think Jackson, Fran and Phillipa did an absolutely sterling job in adapting the book. They had great love for it and spent a LOT of time making sure they got it right while both appealing to mass audiences and respecting the original source and fans. D&D did the same in season 1 of GoT but I think they have not done such a great job for season 2. There will always be complainers but from speaking to my many friends who are big fans of the book (and show) and from what I see on comments and forums; the general consensus is the same as mine.

That aside, I find a lot of points by people defending this whole thing to be invalid. Just because the outcome is the same doesn't mean everything that happens before it is fault free. Not everyone is asking for another 10 minutes of Qhorin scenes. I'm personally just left wanting 1 minute of him quietly talking to Jon. And not everyone is complaining about the dumbing down of a minor character.The problem for a lot of people is that there has been changes to Jon's character. Mixed in with the dilution of many other major characters, it's not something to let slide so easily.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

The Jon/HH dynamic and story arc failed. It just f@cking sucked. Seriously. Whoever decided that Jon was going to be lost from his brothers, ruined it. There was no going back or fixing the relationship they had. There was no damn emotion, meaning or sacrifice. It was absolutely stupid.

When Stonesnake stays behind so that Jon and HH can go on, I teared up. There is bravery, love and commitment to those they've vowed to protect in the book, it is felt. HH sacrifices himself. It is SAD. It is BRAVE. It is HARD. None of that was felt with what they did on the show. None of it. HH just looked like some crazed and jealous Ranger, too weak to fight a young and gifted swordsman. Wrong. The HH could cut Jon to bits without Ghost being there.

GAH!!!

[Arrogant Bastard]

There are very few chapters with John Snow in them in ACoK... In none of these chapters would I equate him to Sherlock Holmes. As a matter of fact, the more chapters that are dedicated to him, the dumber he looks in general. It is kind of like more time spent with him on the TV show this year made him look dumber than the books.

He has a decent amount of chapters, probably around seven or eight. No, he's not the sharpest guy, but I felt like the TV show was going out of it's way to portray him as a total nincompoop. Getting knocked out by Craster, which I felt was a cheap cliffhanger more suited to True Blood, seemingly letting Ygritte go by missing the swing but then deciding to chase after her, and then getting caught by wildings. Truthfully, Jon Snow's arc in ACOK was one of my least favorite in that book, but it didn't annoy me nearly as much as the TV version, and it did have a strong ending, which Jon's storyline in season 2 did not.

Frankly, I think part of the problem is Kit Harrington. He's just not very good, and can really only do morose expressions.

[Jojosh]

"We are the watchers on the wall"...thats all I needed sent chills down my spine.

Me too if you needed a quick scene to send a message to jon that was perfect

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Ever heard the saying hindsight is 20/20? Perhaps George knew he made a mistake putting so much emphasis on the whole Qhorin thing (or the producers believed so). After all he is a minor character that is introduced and is killed in less than one season. Why would a character like that need more screen time? Clearly Ygritte is the more important of the two even if you don't want to admit it.

If they would have given Qhorin an intro last season I would agree, but he was in a grand total of what, 3-4 episodes?? I don't think expanding his character would do the tv show any good.

There is no "Hindsight is 20/20," because none of GRRM's sight, whether hind or present, was part of this. This was the "sight" of the writers.

The HH is not a minor character in the book. He is more important to Jon than Ygritte at this point in the series. He learns lessons from both. Unfortunately, he learns NOTHING the way he written in the show. Expanding his character and showing what happens with Stonesnake and his sacrifice, would had added depth and feeling to this season. It greatly lacked both. The only time I was choked up this season is during GRRM's episode. That's. It. Cersei on the Iron Throne with Tommen? I KNEW Tommen was safe...but he gave her good shit to work with. I was hoping to have that North of the Wall. The emotion of the Night's Watch leaving the Wall in the season 1 finale set a tone that this season did not carry.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Freerider, you mentioned something from LotR as trivial Aragorn and Eowyn. I am thinking much larger, such as leaving the Scourging of the Shire out of the movies or the changes to Helms Deep for that matter. Just because you believe the changes were for the better does not mean they were. Get off your high horse my friend, you don't get to decide what changes were for the best, and that goes for me as well.

I am not worried about spoilers, I have read these forums for the last year and am well versed in nearly all that takes place. So yes, i do have some point of reference even though I have yet to read the books.

You can't say the changes are for the best, if you have not read the books. The changes are not for the best. These changes lack the bravery, character, love and devotion to not only their Brothers, but a Realm that has all but forgotten them, and sees them as nothing but rapists, thieves and Bastards. The show does a complete disservice to what is happening beyond the wall. Yes, the HH and Stonesnake die. It is the way that they die that tells the story of who the Night's Watch is and who Jon sees he needs to be. It isn't just about not having sex with Ygritte. That's what we get from the show. The HH goes crazy, Jon sees his vow as simply staying celibate, and Grenn is a huge flipping scaredy cat who leaves Sam to the Others. Not the case.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

HH had seven words to say to Jon in the show that sum up their entire realtionship. They weren't best friends, HH wasn't his mentor, HH had one final message to get across to Jon the most import. They are brothers of the nights watch. They will do whatever it takes to protect the realm. I loved it.

[KC_Accidental]

The emotion of the Night's Watch leaving the Wall in the season 1 finale set a tone that this season did not carry.

I couldn't agree with this more. The season 1 finale had me so pumped and excited it was unreal. I don't think any other show has had that same effect on me but I have to admit to being slightly disappointed with nearly all of the north of the wall scenes. Despite all the tension built up previously it felt like beyond the wall was a walk in the park. Too sunny I think.

[Wolfmage]

Don't really see what the fuss is about. My non-reader wife knew exactly what was going on without me explaining anything.

My wife volunteered that she thought Qhorin was going to get Jon to kill him just from the sign-posting in previous episodes, and this week you got reminded of this in the pre-titles recap and then again by Qhorin himself.

Qhorin knew he faced a certainly death-sentence and likely torture. So he arranged it so at least his death would gain Jon the trust and stature to be accepted in the Windling camp. The Windlings were impressed because Qhorin is a figure of towering renown to them, and the fact that Jon managed to kill him was a feat of martial prowess they could respect.

Qhorin's taunts against Jon didn't cloud the issue. It was obvious that he was only doing that as part of the show and to help Jon fortify his will to fight and not hold back. There was no confusion about what was going on, and certainly not with his last words.

[Mulled Wino]

The entire Jon Snow storyline was a complete whiff this season by the producers. It sucked. It was developed from the wrong perspective, no one knew wtf the were doing and it was a joke.

It was the worst translation fom the books by far of any character with any importance.

[Chaircat Meow]

Don't really see what the fuss is about. My non-reader wife knew exactly what was going on without me explaining anything.

My wife volunteered that she thought Qhorin was going to get Jon to kill him just from the sign-posting in previous episodes, and this week you got reminded of this in the pre-titles recap and then again by Qhorin himself.

Qhorin knew he faced a certainly death-sentence and likely torture. So he arranged it so at least his death would gain Jon the trust and stature to be accepted in the Windling camp. The Windlings were impressed because Qhorin is a figure of towering renown to them, and the fact that Jon managed to kill him was a feat of martial prowess they could respect.

Qhorin's taunts against Jon didn't cloud the issue. It was obvious that he was only doing that as part of the show and to help Jon fortify his will to fight and not hold back. There was no confusion about what was going on, and certainly not with his last words.

You can't understand the 'fuss' because you are confused as to what the fuss is about.

Qhorin's motivations are not the issue, Jon's are.

It was, in the opinion of many posters on this thread, entirely ambiguous when Jon cottoned onto to the nature of Qhorin's plan. If he realized what Qhorin was doing only after he had run him through he is a murderer.

Some thought Jon and Qhorin were on the same page after episode eight, some thought Jon realized what was afoot only during the fight, others felt Jon only really understood what was going on after he had put his sword in Qhorin.

Point is this level of ambiguity regarding Jon's main decision in season 2 totally sucks.

Read the thread next time.

[ckongo]

When Jon returns to the night's watch and they ask him about Quorin, what will he say? "He mocked me. He called me names. He pushed me down a hill. He made me angry. You mustn't make me angry" ???