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Renly's worth and use?


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Stannis called his banners months before on Dragonstone. They have been trained since.

Renly specifically plan to use all of his men mounted during the battle, who would be charging into the shield walls, the very thing designed to stop a cavalry charge. They would be pelted by arrows all the way into battle, on ground torn up by Stannis while he was building siege weapons. His army would be half-blind rushing into the sun and tired by a two week headlong march.

Many factors would help Stannis in that fight, and I don't envy Renly trying to take King's Landing with an army of nothing but greenboys and field hands.

And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I’ll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won’t survive the first charge of my vanguard.”

Twenty thousand against five on open ground pinned up against Storm's End. It would have been a slaughter and that's not even the core of his army. That eighty thousand is still marching. No shadow baby. No Stannis.

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While I won't go as far as some posters have in defending Renly, I do feel that he would have made an excellent king. There is nothing to suggest he is incompetent in administrative matters, and a skilled Hand would ensure the kingdom runs smoothly. The criticisms of his military strategy are also misplaced, as there are some circumstances in which a slow approach is optimal.

I see Renly as the perfect figurehead monarch. If anybody has read Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, that contains a good example of what I am talking about. The person who is king at the end serves primarily as an inspiration for the subjects, while a certain councillor manages the realm and makes the decisions (usually based on yet another shadow ruler says, but everybody serves someone). Renly could have performed similarly, pleasing the smallfolk (and many of the lords) while a Tywin-like figure (not necessarily Tywin himself) ran the kingdom.

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The problem with Renly is that he was too close to the shadowy figures like Varys and Littlefinger. Especially he and Littlefinger seems to have been friends of a sort (remember, Littlefinger wanted to convince Ned to make Renly king after they had used Joffrey and the Lannisters to deal with Stannis).

And he was also much darker and more ruthless than people want to admit themselves. He schemed against his brother's wife, and thus also against his children, and tried to replace Queen Cersei with Queen Margaery. Hr had no second thoughts about murdering Daenerys. He was determined to kill his sister-in-law, and his brother's children to get what he wanted. Not to speak about the murder of his brother Stannis (and subsequently, I think, the murder of Princess Shireen)

Renly may have been a decent king had he been first in the line of succession. But if he had won the war he would only have won it as King Renly Kinslayer. Funny Renly would have had Tywin's reputation when he finally sat secure on the Iron Throne, and this whole war would have set a very dangerous precedent for the whole kingdom. If a younger brother can successfully rebel against his elder brother(s) and take everything away from the rightful heirs, the whole feudal society of Westeros could crumble. The fact that Renly is in fact only king because he stole the kingdom from its rightful heirs could be used as justification by ambitious lords and ambitious younger brothers to start their own rebellions against their liege lords and against King Renly. Even Robert's Rebellion - who was not started just because Robert wanted to be king! - had that effect. Balon Greyjoy rebelled because he thought he could get away with it just as Robert did.

Robert's Rebellion only worked and gave the Realm some stability afterwards because at its core where three people who were very close and trusted each other with their lives: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark. The fact that they were also three Great Lords of the Realm enabled them to enforce their peace on the kingdom afterwards. But Renly's coalition was only hold together by ambition and narcissism. True, for the time being Renly's official marriage to Margaery and his relationship with Loras kept bound the Tyrells to him, but the heritage of Margaery's children could be questioned quite easily pretty much by everyone since Renly's homosexuality was not exactly a secret. Considering the way Renly would have taken the crown, there would have been another succession crisis upon Renly's death, especially if ambitious members of the court tried to cause strife between Renly's children. Considering that the heritage of Renly's children would have become an issue eventually, it would have been indeed imperative for Renly to murder pretty much all the other members of house Baratheon. If he would allow Cersei's children or Shireen to live and breed, their children would one pose a very serious threat to the claims of Margaery's children.

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I think the one main thing Renly was good for was to show that Stannis, despite his appearing to be a rigid man standing for what he believes to be "true justice" would go so far as to be complicit in the killing of his own brother. And cheated to do it, using magic. That is his cardinal "sin". It very much reminds me of the scene in Godfather three when Al Pacino confesses at the Vatican what he has done to get to the top of his game. With all he has done, his biggest regret is killing his own brother. Kinslayer. He considers that to be his unpardonable sin.

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And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I’ll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won’t survive the first charge of my vanguard.”

Twenty thousand against five on open ground pinned up against Storm's End. It would have been a slaughter and that's not even the core of his army. That eighty thousand is still marching. No shadow baby. No Stannis.

He makes a compelling case. I don't doubt that Stannis lacked heavy horse, but if he been training his infantry and archers as suggested it is not out of the realm of possibility for him to win.

Renly only had horse which is not what you want when facing a pike square or shield wall. Throw in archers and it makes Stannis and his army army look better.

He could have used the cover of building siege weapons to prepare a battlefield to his liking. Ditches, sharpened stakes, traps of various kinds designed to impede heavy horse. That way he could have funnelled Renlys army into predefined choke points filled with Pikeman.

As you pointed out the danger in this plan is the storms end forces leading a sortie. However the danger is not as great as the one the Lannisters faced at Riverrun. Tytos Blackwood had members of Edmures former host, while storms end had the usual garrison of boys and old men. Useful when defending storms end, but not all that dangerous in terms of offenses. A well handled rearguard would be enough to dispel the threat.

Concealment has been important since the beginning of war. So it would make sense if Stannis was concealing how well trained his infantry were. Let Renly think it's a rabble, make him overconfident and take advantage. We know that any spies have been taken care of by Melisandre, so Renly does not have anyone on the inside.

Renly did himself no favour by choosing Loras to lead the van either. He leads with bravery rather than intellect. Tarly would have been the better choice. Tarly also thought Stannis was planning something, which is why he wanted to attack at night.

Once Renlys foot arrived, things might be different. But if Renly was defeated by a vastly inferior force, who would want to follow him? Or if Renly was slain in battle, what then?

This would explain why a careful man like Stannis would walk into a seemingly hopeless situation. He was told by going to storms end he would get an army but he wasn't told how. I'd he was planning in showing the realm that he could defeat Renly with the power of the reach behind him, maybe he thought people would abandon Renly as a result.

Of course maybe I cooked up my first crackpot theory.

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I hate how people say Renly would of been a shit ruler. He had a great war strategy, the loyalty of several powerful bannermen and the sense to know he needed the right people to become king not the best claim. Renly really did not make any bad decisions and the only way he lost was because of a damn shadow baby.

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I hate how people say Renly would of been a shit ruler. He had a great war strategy, the loyalty of several powerful bannermen and the sense to know he needed the right people to become king not the best claim. Renly really did not make any bad decisions and the only way he lost was because of a damn shadow baby.

I understand what you have posited, but I think he was immature, over his head, and would have ultimately been self-indulgent. having said that, I liked him as a person. But as a King. no, imho.
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I understand what you have posited, but I think he was immature, over his head, and would have ultimately been self-indulgent. having said that, I liked him as a person. But as a King. no, imho.

Based on the show Renly, absolutely. But I think the show's Renly was pretty much a character assassination. In the books, Renly makes no mistakes and shows good judgment in a wide range of situations.
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A lot of people here buy intro Renly's self promotion. Was he loved in the Iron Islands, Vale, West, Riverlands, North or Dorne?

The Stormlords and even some Reachmen (Florents, Fosoways) turned pretty quickly at his death. They really loved him too it seems.

Totally. Patient when he had to be, decisive when he had to be, martial when he had to be, diplomatic when he had to be. Immediately grasped the Robert's accident ramifications. Was working to reduce Lannister influence before anyone on the Crown's side. Offered Ned the way through, and then immediately played his way to the strongest hand when Ned demurred.

Etc.

I really, really think the show has hardened a view of him inconsistent with the book.

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A lot of people here buy intro Renly's self promotion. Was he loved in the Iron Islands, Vale, West, Riverlands, North or Dorne?

The Stormlords and even some Reachmen (Florents, Fosoways, Willum, Varner, Mullendore) turned pretty quickly at his death. They really loved him too it seems.

What self promotion?

And what should they be loyal to after he dies? Ned turned to Stannis after Robert died...Ned didn't love Robert?

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What self promotion?

And what should they be loyal to after he dies? Ned turned to Stannis after Robert died...Ned didn't love Robert?

When do we see a non Renly biased source compliment him? Catelyn is pretty scathing towards both brothers.

By this point Stannis was the enemy. If they loved Renly they'd have supported his widow or any other heir.

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Renly was a fool and Donal's judgement on Renly were apt. He is all shiny and pretty to look at. This is not only about his looks but also his perception amongst the readers. What are Renly's achievements? Some might argue that he is a good player of the game of thrones. How exactly is that? Renly was being remotely manipulated by the Queen of Thrones. Renly wanted Robert to set aside Cersei for Margery so that Loras maybe happy. How is this is anyway a wise move? Robert gains Tywin as his enemy and Tywin is not exactly a pushover. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella who Renly believed were Robert's children would be put to sword along with Jaime and Cersei. Tywin would never forget that. Pointless war and murder of children and for what? Renly gains absolutely nothing. All the gains are Tyrell's and the realm losses. Loras would be happy. Littlefinger, Varys, Stannis and even Ned suspected that Renly was up to no good. Renly had no clue about the Cersei and Jaime relationship. How is this the hallmark of a great player of the game pray tell?

After Robert was dead, Tyrell manipulated him again by marrying him to Margery. And then we witnessed the "brilliant" battlefield strategies of Renly. He built one big host which was hardly mobile, wasted all the food, was never in defensible position, was never in ordered fashion. Summer was ending and Renly was wasting food in feasts and tourneys. The baffling moves of Renly against Stannis have already been mentioned by other posters. Dorne didn't help Renly and in fact used him to get ahead and could have given Renly a serious defeat as the Marcher castles like Nightsong were undefended.

So, Renly was neither a good player nor a battlefield genius. There is nothing of note in his administrative work either. Under him corrupt people like Slynt and Littlefinger flourished. No one respected him. Neither Jaime nor queen of Thorns who have seen him recently unlike Donal. Even ex soldiers of Renly like Hyle Hunt laugh at him. So, Renly was not a good person, player, commander and an administrator. In the end, he was worthless.

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Renly may have been a decent king had he been first in the line of succession. But if he had won the war he would only have won it as King Renly Kinslayer. Funny Renly would have had Tywin's reputation when he finally sat secure on the Iron Throne, and this whole war would have set a very dangerous precedent for the whole kingdom. If a younger brother can successfully rebel against his elder brother(s) and take everything away from the rightful heirs, the whole feudal society of Westeros.

There is a remarkable pattern with this point.

I disagree about most of what you say, but am bored with the arguments right now, but I wanted to point out this cycle.

1) Critic of Renly's states the self-evident wrong of Renly rebelling against/ attacking his brother as important to why Renly was wrong.

2) Renly supporter points out that no, Renly didn't rebel against Stannis. He rebelled against Joffrey. Stannis SUBSEQUENTLY rebelled against Joff too, and then declared war on and attacked Renly's capital, at which point Renly went to defend himself and Stannis assassinated him.

3) Renly critic states that it's not important who did what to whom, Stannis had the better claim.

Rinse, repeat.

Again, Renly rebelled FIRST. Against Joff. He did not know about twincest ; he was rebelling based on Joff's qualities as a King and the threat they represented to his self and the realm. As such, he was not rebelling based on order of succession...he was making a decision like many monarchs have made in history, including his elder brother; this king is not good, he is dangerous to me and mine.

I know you'll now say it's a detail and unimportant to the criticism if Renly, and yet the fact that it is continuously cited by people criticizing him makes me believe it must be.

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Well, Renly could have been the strong right arm of King Joffrey. The man calling the shots at the court after Robert died. Had he not antagonized Cersei and her family by plotting against them for the benefit of his lover's family.

I agree that Renly had to do something after Robert died. The way things were, Cersei would eventually turn against him. He might lose Storm's End and perhaps even his life. Yet teaming up with the Tyrells and crowning himself without consulting his elder brother first is entirely stupid. The fact that Renly did this, shows that the main thing he and Mace/Loras (they were the driving force behind 'King Renly', not Lady Olenna!) was the Iron Throne.

Renly did not have to claim the Iron Throne to protect himself. He could have used his influence over the Stormlords and the Reach to support either Stannis or Joffrey in the coming. Cersei may not have liked him all that much, but if he has saved her and Joffrey's ass, they would have rewarded him.

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The Stormlords and even some Reachmen (Florents, Fosoways, Willum, Varner, Mullendore) turned pretty quickly at his death. They really loved him too it seems.

And they turned back again the moment that they thought they saw his "ghost" coming at them across the battlefield. That says something about their relationship to him.

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And they turned back again the moment that they thought they saw his "ghost" coming at them across the battlefield. That says something about their relationship to him.

Probably more a comment on the fickle nature of those Lords. But a "ghost" is a pretty extraordinary circumstance, especially one backed by a 70,000 strong army.

Bryce Caron and Guyard Morrigan, knights of Renly's Kingsguard however would die fighting for Stannis. And there's all those Fossoways killed.

My point is that most of the Stormlords and Reachmen had no more love for Renly over Stannis, he just looked to be the best side to be on, then Stannis' did and quickly after the BW Joffrey's.

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