Renly's worth and use?

[The Last Direwolf]

In other words, he would be a good puppet king?

Again, anyone imagines Renly leading the fight against the Others? Or even the Dothraki? Saving the realm during a very long winter? Not in a million years.

But no one knew this was coming at the time. Renly would have been a perfect king for peace time. He was charming and well loved, and more able people, such as Tyrion or Tywin could have been Hand and kept everything together, like how Jon Arryn and Ned Stark did for Robert. He was well suited for the job.

[Jon Flowers]

Renly was Robert mark II. Well loved by the commons and noble houses, but for all entents and purposes, an empty vessel for the Tyrells to rule through, much as Robert was for the Lannisters. It must be said though, to differentiate him from Robert that He was a better dresser (according to Littlefinger), less of a warrior (there was only one Robert) and less of a womanizer (or obvious reasons).

[Olde_and_Tired]

But no one knew this was coming at the time. Renly would have been a perfect king for peace time. He was charming and well loved, and more able people, such as Tyrion or Tywin could have been Hand and kept everything together, like how Jon Arryn and Ned Stark did for Robert. He was well suited for the job.

The only person Renly would have made Hand is Mace. Sure Jon Arryn made a good hand but he was a part of Robert's Rebellion. The Lannisters are going to give Renly the throne and then Tywin or Tyrion is going to be Hand? In what world?

[The Last Direwolf]

The only person Renly would have made Hand is Mace. Sure Jon Arryn made a good hand but he was a part of Robert's Rebellion. The Lannisters are going to give Renly the throne and then Tywin or Tyrion is going to be Hand? In what world?

In a world where the Lannisters are forced to accept defeat. Quite difficult to achieve, but if everything had gone as the Tyrells had hoped, they would have had to. And Mace would have been a puppet for his far more clever mother and children. They would have ensured he did a good job I think.

[LordBloodraven]

In a world where the Lannisters are forced to accept defeat. Quite difficult to achieve, but if everything had gone as the Tyrells had hoped, they would have had to. And Mace would have been a puppet for his far more clever mother and children. They would have ensured he did a good job I think.

Too much conditionalities for this to happen. It's very unlikely

[The Last Direwolf]

Too much conditionalities for this to happen. It's very unlikely

I never said it wasn't.

[Olde_and_Tired]

In a world where the Lannisters are forced to accept defeat. Quite difficult to achieve, but if everything had gone as the Tyrells had hoped, they would have had to. And Mace would have been a puppet for his far more clever mother and children. They would have ensured he did a good job I think.

So Mace is an idiot but because his daughter is queen, his son is in the Kingsguard, and his mother is smart he would have been a good Hand?

[The Last Direwolf]

So Mace is an idiot but because his daughter is queen, his son is in the Kingsguard, and his mother is smart he would have been a good Hand?

Olenna could be quite a forceful mother, I'll have you know! :P But seriously, an idiot like Mace is not hard to manipulate by a clever lady like the Queen of Thorns

[Bourne]

In other words, he would be a good puppet king?

Again, anyone imagines Renly leading the fight against the Others? Or even the Dothraki? Saving the realm during a very long winter? Not in a million years.

He'd be the perfect puppet king, which is what a king should be. A perfect monarchy would work similarly to how Britain's works now (similar, but the king should have more power). The king is just a figurehead for the government, a person everyone can look to for inspiration. The real ruling should be done by background administrators.

Renly would serve as the unifying force among the kingdoms. Everyone, including the smallfolk, love him. He had Robert's ability to make enemies into friends. He'd be the perfect face of Westeros as long as he allowed the truly brilliant (LF, Tywin, etc.) to administrate from the background.

[Olde_and_Tired]

He'd be the perfect puppet king, which is what a king should be. A perfect monarchy would work similarily to how Britain's works now (similar, but the king should have more power). The king is just a figurehead for the government, a person everyone can look to for inspiration. The real ruling should be done by background administrators.

Renly would serve as the unifying force among the kingdoms. Everyone, including the smallfolk, love him. He had Robert's ability to make enemies into friends. He'd be the perfect face of Westeros as long as he allowed the truly brilliant (LF, Tywin, etc.) to administrate from the background.

The North had no interest in recognizing him as king in ACoK and at that time in Clash as the North goes so goes most of the riverlands. Not likely he gets any support from Dorne either and win or lose the west is going to fight him to the bitter end. Some unified kingdom.

What is the love of the small folk going to get him. I can't think of any successful peasant revolts in Westeros. The Kingswood Brotherhood had some small success but one of the kingsguard (i think it was Dayne) quickly crushed it by offering the small folk more than the brotherhood's leaders ever could. The common theme i have seen in ASoIAF is that the small folk follow their Lords or things don't go well for them

[Saer]

While he would make a good smiler and figure-head with someone smarter *cough*Tyrells*cough* behind him, in himself Renly wouldn't have been a good king.

[Bourne]

The North had no interest in recognizing him as king in ACoK and at that time in Clash as the North goes so goes most of the riverlands. Not likely he gets any support from Dorne either and win or lose the west is going to fight him to the bitter end. Some unified kingdom.

Notice the word "would" in my column. If Renly was chosen in a kingsmoot type deal to be the king of Westeros he "would" be a unifying force. We were discussing his hypothetical value.

I wasn't speaking about what he was doing. Just what he could do.

What is the love of the small folk going to get him. I can't think of any successful peasant revolts in Westeros. The Kingswood Brotherhood had some small success but one of the kingsguard (i think it was Dayne) quickly crushed it by offering the small folk more than the brotherhood's leaders ever could. The common theme i have seen in ASoIAF is that the small folk follow their Lords or things don't go well for them

Go read the chapter where Myrcella is shipped off to Dorne to see what can happen when the commons hate the king. Peasants who love their king are more obedient and less likely to riot.

Remember, power resides where people believe it resides. If 200,000 commoners decided to rebel against 200 Lords, who wins?

[danm_999]

He's Robert without the gumption.

Noye calls him copper. He's very pretty to look at, but if you actually want to use him, well, he's not that useful.

He'd be fine for the peacetime of the Long Summer, but then so probably would most other lords who didn't have some sort of crippling personality defect.

As a king though, he'd be a disaster given what Westeros is about to face.

[Dr. Pepper]

Remember, power resides where people believe it resides. If 200,000 commoners decided to rebel against 200 Lords, who wins?

Depends. Do the smallfolk have steel swords? Do they have access to castles where they can hide and fight behind? Do they have horses to mount a cavalry? Do the 200 Lords still have the support of their bannermen or have their men moved to support the commoners?

[danm_999]

Depends. Do the smallfolk have steel swords? Do they have access to castles where they can hide and fight behind? Do they have horses to mount a cavalry? Do the 200 Lords still have the support of their bannermen or have their men moved to support the commoners?

Could go either way. After all;

Do the lords have food? Do they have farmers and fishermen? Do they have servants to prepare their food for them? Do they have smiths and armourers to outfit them? Do they have masons and builders to prepare their castles, and fix their walls? Do they have stableboys to train and prepare their horses? Do they have handmaidens? Do they have free-riders and men at arms, commoners who soak up the blows of the enemies so the knights can deliver the killing stroke?

[Kittyhat]

I'll repeat the same thing I always end up saying in Renly threads. People say he's just a "knight of summer". How is he any different from Robb before the first battle, except Renly displays a plan for the long game rather than just a short term one. In fact in his single move as a commander he's shown more aptitude than we've seen from Stannis so far. Renly sits in the South letting the two biggest threats to his army bleed each other out. He is starving out King's Landing without subjecting himself to the dangers of a siege and as Tyrion's chapters show the hungrier KL gets the more pro-whoever can bring them food (Renly). Compared to Stannis who sails to attack a fortress reputable as impregnable, when there are close to 100,000 men a few days march away. And then if we take Stannis' word that he had no hand in Renly's death then he seriously thought he could take on 20,000 with 5,000.

Amen to this.

Renly would be my second pick actually of the major candidates behind Daenerys. Really his biggest flaw was that he didn't foresee Melisandre assassinating him with a shadow baby, which, honestly ... who could have seen that coming?

[LuisDantas]

What was Renly's true worth? Donal Noye describes him as not worth much, Stannis thinks him a fool, the smallfolk loved him and Tywin thought him less of a threat than Stannis despite him boasting an army of 100,000 against Stannis' 5,000.

What was his worth as a Lord?

What was his worth as Master of Laws?

What was his worth as a man?

He was certainly more pleasant and diplomatic a person than Stannis, I think in that much we will have little disagreement.

In fact, it is very clear to me that he was a better man than Stannis, period. Except perhaps as a general, and even then we have to qualify that statement with a mile of remarks.

He was loved by his bannermen to the point of succeeding in leading open rebellion without even the pretense of support of the law, which strongly suggests that we was, if nothing else, well-loved as a Lord.

It is interesting that Renly was the Master of Laws yet did not hesitate to challenge them - which, again, speaks favorably of him in my opinion. Laws are very human creations and it is a common serious mistake to expect them to create virtue. Renly realized that people must not hesitate to use or reject laws as they see fit and take full responsibility for the consequences. So I assume that he was a competent Master of Laws as well. He has certainly shown a good sense of the political climate of Westeros.

As for his value as a Man... he accepted the duty of protecting Edric Storm from both Stannis' resentment and Robert's negligence when he could so easily wash his hands away, and he did his best to convince Ned to take a course of action that might have avoided the War of the Five Kings entirely.

What is not to love in Renly?

[LuisDantas]

In other words, he would be a good puppet king?

Again, anyone imagines Renly leading the fight against the Others? Or even the Dothraki? Saving the realm during a very long winter? Not in a million years.

I can, and very easily. When push comes to shove, all that a King must do is know how to delegate responsibilities and to motivate and inspire loyalty. Renly had access to Randyll Tarly - far as we know, the best general in Westeros - and was generally reasonable.

There is no good reason to believe that he would fall short in any of those tasks. Tywin and Stannis, particularly, have consistently shown to be far more reckless and inconsequential than Renly, to the point that their bannermen are dying rather quickly. Stannis' campaign is borderline suicidal, actually.

[danm_999]

It is interesting that Renly was the Master of Laws yet did not hesitate to challenge them - which, again, speaks favorably of him in my opinion.

Looked at cynically, you could say Renly did not care for the law at all, but for Renly. He applied it when it suited him.

He threw the law aside when the law said that he was obliged to swear fealty to Stannis or Joffrey, but then he expected Robb to swear fealty, loyalty and service to him, in return for being legally recognised by Renly.

[LuisDantas]

Looked at cynically, you could say Renly did not care for the law at all, but for Renly. He applied it when it suited him.

He threw the law aside when the law said that he was obliged to swear fealty to Stannis or Joffrey, but then he expected Robb to swear fealty, loyalty and service to him, in return for being legally recognised by Renly.

That is my point, and it shows how Renly is more honest and less cynical than Tywin or Stannis. They too discard or bend the law when it suits them, but they claim otherwise. Renly is more honest and more responsible than either.