Norse Mythology-Ragnarök and the possible ASOIAF connection

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

I definitely don't see ASOIAF as being an exact retelling of the story of Ragnarok, but there are obvious influences. I have to say that I've read the theories regarding Tyrion being Aerys son via rape, but I've never read a theory of Jaime and Cersei being Aerys son instead. That would be an interesting twist! And it kind of makes sense what with a.) "Targaryens wed brother and sister" and b.) "Tyrion is Tywin's son."

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

I definitely don't see ASOIAF as being an exact retelling of the story of Ragnarok, but there are obvious influences. I have to say that I've read the theories regarding Tyrion being Aerys son via rape, but I've never read a theory of Jaime and Cersei being Aerys son instead. That would be an interesting twist! And it kind of makes sense what with a.) "Targaryens wed brother and sister" and b.) "Tyrion is Tywin's son."

It'd be ironic as hell.

[TheHalfman]

I doubt GRRM is going to copy an entire story into his books. That would be kinda lazy writing? He's better than that, or he's supposed to be.

As the blog author says, creating great characters and interweaving the whole story of Westeros to fit the Ragnarok would take a ton of skill. So, even if character's fates follow a 1-1, it is still skillful.

[bemused]

And GRRM says he doesn't write allegory.

[JonAhai]

I totally think Jon is Tyr. People forget that Jon had his hand permanently damaged in his first encounter with a wight. In the theory with Jaime as Tyr, really the only thing suggesting it is that he is missing a hand. But GRRM isn't that literal. So if he's basing it off of Norse Mythology, Jon's injured hand (the one that is messed up enough that the cold prevents him from drawing his sword while he's getting stabbed) is as valid as Jaime's removed hand. In what way does Jaime embody lawfullness? Well Tyr is associated with law, right? Jon, on the other hand, has numerous times put law over his personal interest. And even the two times he tried to break his vows he was stopped (not including his losing his virginity, because (a) he didn't take a wife and (b) ultimately he did it for the Watch).

And let's not forget that all Melisandre saw was Snow when she looked for Azor Ahai in the flames.

If Tyr is Azor Ahai, then it's Jon Snow, not Jaime, and Rhaegar is Odin, the warrior-poet who fathered Tyr

[sweetsunray]

Here's what I think is going on with Ragnarok in aSoIaF:

One of GRRM's all time five favourite sci-fi/fantasy books is Zelazny's Lord of Light. It's the story about colonizers of a planet who reign the planet pretending to be gods and keep the original inhabitants under their tumbs. The pantheon and gods they mimic are those of the Hindu pantheon, and they have machinery to "reincarnate" a god time and time again (though it may be a different soul, or the soul gets to be another god, etc). One of the original colonizers being reincarnated is Buddha (aka, the Lord of Light or Enlightened one, Mahasamatman, but he drops the Maha and the atman, and just calls himself Sam). He starts to rebel against his fellow gods/colonisers by reinacting the life of Buddha, but basically as a charlatan, rather than being a true believer. He's just a human early reincarnated colonizer who uses the Hindu-Buddha anology of his fellow god-posing humans to end their might over the planet.

This is an example of a book that uses Hindu and Buddhist mythology as a type of reinactment, but it's never 1:1. Someone who's god A first becomes god B later on, etc.

On the front cover of my copy is written "One of the five best SF novels ever written" - GRRM. GRRM and Zelazny were good friends. And GRRM tips his hat off to this book by using the title "Lord of Light" in his books as well as the name "Sam" (confirmed).

On page 14 (the 6th page of text) the god Tak (ape form) sings to the goddess of Night (Ratri):

"Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass."

Why is this relevant? It's very possible that GRRM is trying to do something similar with the Ragnarok themes, inspired by Zelazny's successful work of '68. He has human charachters as stand ins for the Norse gods in the telling of Ragnarok. But like Zelazny's book, they could alter and reincarnate or change into other gods, with completely different trials, redos and outcomes. Using the Lord of Light and Sam reference in the books would be a tip off to a similar aim by his friend Zelazny with the Hindu pantheon, and the quote I posted might even have given him the idea of doing it with Ragnarok. If this has been the inspiration to try something like it for himself, then it won't be 1:1.

[sweetsunray]

So, I would shy away from overall applying the same god name to the same character, and the same god name may be appliccable to several characters throughout the books, here's an interesting one coming up

One handed Jaime versus the Hound (Lem) and Lady Stoneheart.

With only one hand Jaime would at that time be the reincarnation of Tyr. Tyr is the one handed god of war and a god of justice, which is the role that Jaime fills in the Riverlands - besieging, parlaying, procuring the hostages to safety, installing rule and order again in the Riverlands. Tyr is destined to kill and be killed by the Garm, the guard dog of Hel.

Garm is the Hound, but the Hound role has been passed on, from Sandor to Rorge to Lem Lemoncloak. Jaime as one handed Tyr is being lured by Brienne intoa trap with a lie about the Hound threatening to kill Sansa. Brienne is with the BwB and so is Lem with the Hound helmet.

Hel is both a place as well as a character. As a place Hel is located beneath one of the tree roots of Ygdrassil. In other words an underground location with weirwoord roots. The Hollow Hill is such a place. The semi-goddess Hel rules Hel. The ruler of the BwB and Hollow Hill is LS. Hel is supposed to look half black, half flesh colored, fierce looking and downcast. This fits the description of LS, who within the aSoIaF symbolism looks very much like the living Stranger (with the cowl, cloak, silence of the silent sisters because of her cut throat).

So, this suggests that there will be a duel fought between Jaime and Lem, with LS presiding over it, where both will die. The question is whether Jaime remains dead or will be revived.

Hel has a role to play in the reincarnation/resurrection of Baldr (andin Old English it means Lord, Prince, Ruler). Baldr has a dream of his death and so does his mother Frigg. Frigg makes everything 'promise' not to hurt her son, except for the mistletoe. Loki finds out about Baldr's one weakness and has an arrow made out of mistletoe, while Baldr's brothers fooled around by hurling all kind of stuff at Baldr, because they believed it would not harm him anyway, and blind Hodur shot the mistletoe arrow, thereby killing his brother. So, Baldr goes to Hel. Frigg calls for a hero to beg Hel to release Baldr again, because the whole world is sad and crying over his death. Hel then gives the test: if all the world will cry for him then he may return, but if one protests and does not cry he remains in Hel, and one giantess (Loki in disguise) refuses to weep for Baldr. So, Baldr has to remain in Hel until after Ragnarok to rule the world, together with his brothers and Thor's sons.

The question here is whether this coudl apply to LS as Hel, Jaime as Baldr or sounds more like another plot of aSoIaF. Personally I doubt it, even though Baldr is described as

The second son of Odin is Baldur, and good things are to be said of him. He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body. He is the wisest of the Æsir, and the fairest-spoken and most gracious; and that quality attends him, that none may gainsay his judgments.

Might be applicable to Jaime, but I'd suggest Baldr is Rhaegar. Baldr has a wife Nanna who breaks down and dies after his death and throws herself onto the funeral pyre. In some stories Nanna is coveted both by Baldr and her foster brother Hodur, and they battle with each other over her several times, the two winning the battle one time and losing the other time, with Nanna changing her fervor for the other (usually the one who lost) with each victory. In any event Baldr and Nanna have a son Forseti,a god of justice and reconciliation, with a skill for presiding (president) and mediating. In this telling we see Lyanna as Nanna with Rhaegar (Baldr) and Robert (Hodur) or vice versa battle each other for her love. One the other hand Lyanna might also take the role of Frigg who asks for a promise to protect her son Baldr from death, and then the sorrowful death years later, with the pleading to have him resurrected.

Just as an example how different characters can have different norse roles, etc.

[Aetta]

I ended up reading both Eddas, Volsungasaga, Ynglingasaga and other Norse geneological writings, and doing intensive and extensive research on Ragnarok...which lead me into Celtic and Pictish works as well-All because I had been CERTAIN I could figure out ASOIAF by knowing these angles.

Literally just posted on another thread a few minutes back about Gendry's horned helmet and Robert's hammer, reminding me of Thor, thus reminding me of Jormungandr, and Odin, and Fenrir.

1. It's a rabbit hole. A beautiful rabbit hole, but a rabbit hole none the less. You'll twist your mind in circles thinking about the similarities and the what if scenarios.

2. GRRM, as has been noted, is not rewriting any one particular mythology, to be sure. If in doubt, see the Heresy threads and you'll find that the similarities to both non-Norse myths and modern literature abound.

But, never being one to dissuade, I will put this out there:

-Snorri offers us a story of a Wall, Google that with keywords Sleipnir, Mason, Wall

-Look into the Sidhe. I believe a SSM mentions them.

-While you're on the Sidhe and the Fae, look into Changelings with Craster's babes in mind

-A sword called Gram...looking for Ice to be reforged and called Wrath?

-Picts vs Wildlings

-The tuatha, ah, the tuatha. Tuatha of the Forest. Or the Cessair-types, who could have been the builders of the Seastone Chair.

There's a lot. And a lot is colored over time by Christian influence. What's great is that this is not lost on Martin. He seems to get that gods and men and folklore has a way of changing over time to suit the present.

[bobbechk]

• Loki is indirectly responsible for the death of one of his kin "Balder" who is hit by an arrow under the direction of Loki // Bloodraven indirectly kills Daemon Blackfyre when his archers rain arrows on him.

• Loki is after the death of Balder accused by the other gods of almost everything that goes wrong everywhere even bad weather is considered Lokis fault. // Bloodraven is considered an accursed kinslayer and small folk continually attribute bad crops and storms as his fault.

Loki is imprisoned and sent deep into a cave where he will be chained until the onset of Ragnarok // Bloodraven is imprisoned and finally ends up bound deep inside a cave until...?

Loki is a shapeshifter, he can take the form of animals and people alike. // Bloodraven is a warg