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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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Oathkeeper is half of ICE

That is right. But were is the other half of ICE? I don't remember. My recollection is that it was given to Jeoffrey at the PW. If I am right about that, do we know were Jeoffrey's half of ICE went?

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Your statement that Sandor is the grave digger is correct, the hound is dead your right. But thick unproven assumption? Come on Sandor being on the quite isle was spelt out for us when the head brother told us how he "died" and was reborn during the war of the 9 penny kings.

nothing is spelled out for us in these books. Hoster mumbles "tansy" in his fever/opium dream and cat wonders if it was a woman he knew. A few pages down, we meet a whore named Tansy. Seems pretty cut and dry until we get Lysa's story of drinking the tansy abortion tea and then it makes sense. As of all 5 books read, Sandor and his hound persona are both dead. We saw his horse, so it can still be alive.

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nothing is spelled out for us in these books. Hoster mumbles "tansy" in his fever/opium dream and cat wonders if it was a woman he knew. A few pages down, we meet a whore named Tansy. Seems pretty cut and dry until we get Lysa's story of drinking the tansy abortion tea and then it makes sense. As of all 5 books read, Sandor and his hound persona are both dead. We saw his horse, so it can still be alive.

Of course things are spelled out, you just don't seem to like connecting the letters.

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In books as vast as these 5, there are a lot of letters to connect. Everyone we thought dead is actually alive. Ned, Robert, John Arryn, Aerys, Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Drogo, Viserys, Balon, Syrio, Rob Stark. Everyone is secretly Targ royalty, including those that are secret non male line Blackfyre descendants. Everyone secretly practices sorcery. It gets kind of boring after a while reading into every discrepancy and assigning meaning to what are often mistakes by the author, like Jane Westerlings' hips. When they show up again, in the proverbial flesh then it will be believable truth. Until then it is all speculation, no matter how much text that "Obviously" spells out.


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nothing is spelled out for us in these books. Hoster mumbles "tansy" in his fever/opium dream and cat wonders if it was a woman he knew. A few pages down, we meet a whore named Tansy. Seems pretty cut and dry until we get Lysa's story of drinking the tansy abortion tea and then it makes sense. As of all 5 books read, Sandor and his hound persona are both dead. We saw his horse, so it can still be alive.

And what is the "tansy" example supposed to prove? The brothel owner called Tansy was a red herring, that's why Cat wondering who the woman called Tansy is was stated in the text. Just like Willa and Ashara and the fisherwoman being Jon Snow's mother has been stated in the text - because those are red herrings; while Lyanna being Jon's mother was never stated in the text, because it's the conclusion that everything is hinting at.

Likewise, nobody ever states that Sandor is the gravedigger and Brienne doesn't connect the dots that he's still alive - because that's the conclusion that everything is hinting at. The real conclusions are what GRRM heavily hints at, but it's left to the readers to figure it out. The red herrings, on the other hand, are stated by the characters in the text.

It's as obvious that Sandor is the gravedigger as it's obvious that R+L=J.

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In books as vast as these 5, there are a lot of letters to connect. Everyone we thought dead is actually alive. Ned, Robert, John Arryn, Aerys, Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Drogo, Viserys, Balon, Syrio, Rob Stark. Everyone is secretly Targ royalty, including those that are secret non male line Blackfyre descendants. Everyone secretly practices sorcery. It gets kind of boring after a while reading into every discrepancy and assigning meaning to what are often mistakes by the author, like Jane Westerlings' hips. When they show up again, in the proverbial flesh then it will be believable truth. Until then it is all speculation, no matter how much text that "Obviously" spells out.

Nope. Just major characters who "die" off-page, with no body and an unreliable source reporting their death. Bran and Rickon? Dead! Wait, not really. (I was never fooled by that one.) Theon? Gone for two books. Dead? Eh, not really. Davos? Reported dead! Dead? Of course not. Sandor? What do you think? Jon? GRRM has already let the cat out of the bag on that one.

Heck, even a body with a slashed throat in the water, or a skull, is not a proof of someone not being... undead.

The dudes on your list, though? Totally dead. Ned's dead, baby, Ned's dead.

Edited by Annara Snow

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Tansy was Exactly a red herring. It is bits like that that make me doubt even the most "Obviously Obvious" bits of anything in these novels. Grrm Loves to mess with his readers. Fake/un Deaths, magic and glamour, when used as plot devices are resolved rather quickly. Mance as rattleshirt, Bran and Rickon coming out of the crypts, these were resolved within the book. If Syrio has not returned, I highly doubt Sandor will either.


Edited by Dorian Martell

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Tansy was Exactly a red herring. It is bits like that that make me doubt even the most "Obviously Obvious" bits of anything in these novels.

Did you miss my point? It was a red herring, that's why the interpretation of "tansy" as a woman's name was stated in the text. Just like Willa, Ashara, a fisherwoman being Jon's mothers was stated in the text.

And "tansy" being the name of the brothel owner never made any sense, since there was no obvious reason for Hoster to repeat her name over and over, and it had nothing to do with Lysa, who Hoster was obviously talking about (note: I guessed right away that LF was the guy who got Lysa pregnant, but of course Cat herself never connects the dots, because the characters never realize those things, GRRM lets the readers figure it out; the characters only come up with wrong conclusions). Did anyone really believe Tansy the brothel owner was the answer to that riddle? It certainly wouldn't have been a satisfying answer or made for any coherent story. How would Hoster repeating Tansy's name while talking about Lysa's pregnancy worked in a bigger story and made for an interesting setup? If Tansy were younger, we could have thought Lysa did have a bastard child and it was Tansy, but she was clearly older than 16/17.

Grrm Loves to mess with his readers. Fake/un Deaths, magic and glamour, when used as plot devices are resolved rather quickly. Mance as rattleshirt, Bran and Rickon coming out of the crypts, these were resolved within the book.

Theon was MIA for two entire books. We saw him getting knocked unconscious near the end of ACOK. And then he only appeared as Reek in ADWD. That was hardly 'resolved quickly'...

If Syrio has not returned, I highly doubt Sandor will either.

Sandor =/= Syrio

Syrio was an extremely minor character, who never got any development, existed for half of one book, played his role of mentor and that was it. There never was any foreshadowing about his role, any hints about him being alive, and a bunch other characters in the books have not been talking about him and thinking about/obsessing over and over in every book since we last saw him. I really don't see how you can compare the two.

Edited by Annara Snow

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I hope Brienne doesn't betray Jaime. It's such an unsettling thought, especially considering the author.



Unfortunately Jaime could die and it wouldn't change much going forward. In fact if Jaime did go, what if Margery appointed Loras to take his place? There might be a lot more plot potential there than what Jaime would do from this point on.



UnCat has been around very long considering how little her character offers. Why would thousands of men that don't have allegiances beyond the lord of lights serve a clearly evil undead woman who can barely speak and has no powers or real goals? She wouldn't be able to hold an army for long without using them. If she does go soon what if Brienne kills Jaime anyways so she keeps her Oath in a twist of irony? What if she has Jaime kill HER with the sword to sacrifice her life to save Jaime's? There's some fun small ideas, but I don't see them sticking around much longer.



Brienne's oath is to protect the Starks, but it's going to be impossible. Bran and Rickon are presumed dead and are unreachable, Arya is a lone wolf, and she'd only endanger Sansa by trying to protect her.



The writing on the wall seems to say that Brienne and Jaime both have exhausted their use in this storyline.


Edited by Lionblood rider

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In books as vast as these 5, there are a lot of letters to connect. Everyone we thought dead is actually alive. Ned, Robert, John Arryn, Aerys, Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Drogo, Viserys, Balon, Syrio, Rob Stark. Everyone is secretly Targ royalty, including those that are secret non male line Blackfyre descendants. Everyone secretly practices sorcery. It gets kind of boring after a while reading into every discrepancy and assigning meaning to what are often mistakes by the author, like Jane Westerlings' hips. When they show up again, in the proverbial flesh then it will be believable truth. Until then it is all speculation, no matter how much text that "Obviously" spells out.

Obviously :laugh:

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I hope Brienne doesn't betray Jaime. It's such an unsettling thought, especially considering the author.

Unfortunately Jaime could die and it wouldn't change much going forward. In fact if Jaime did go, what if Margery appointed Loras to take his place? There might be a lot more plot potential there than what Jaime would do from this point on.

UnCat has been around very long considering how little her character offers. Why would thousands of men that don't have allegiances beyond the lord of lights serve a clearly evil undead woman who can barely speak and has no powers or real goals? She wouldn't be able to hold an army for long without using them. If she does go soon what if Brienne kills Jaime anyways so she keeps her Oath in a twist of irony? What if she has Jaime kill HER with the sword to sacrifice her life to save Jaime's? There's some fun small ideas, but I don't see them sticking around much longer.

Brienne's oath is to protect the Starks, but it's going to be impossible. Bran and Rickon are presumed dead and are unreachable, Arya is a lone wolf, and she'd only endanger Sansa by trying to protect her.

The writing on the wall seems to say that Brienne and Jaime both have exhausted their use in this storyline.

Not necessarily, as Jaime may very well be the one to kill Cersei. There is a delicious irony in the thought that the one thing Cersei prized almost as much as herself, the bond between her and Jaime, would be her undoing.

As for Brienne, I love Brienne, but she is the one I worry most about. Good and noble people don't last long in these books.

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Jamie, tyrion, arya, Sansa, loras, stannis, rickon, john and dany all have older siblings. Any one could be the Volanqar that kills Cersei


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Shroud does not have to mean death

This is true. The part of Maggy the Frog's prophecy that says "gold will be their crowns and gold will be their shrouds" could very well be referring to all three of Cercei's children being crowned and the shroud could just be referring to them wearing cloaks of the color of House Baratheon.

However, I think Maggy was contrasting those two things in her prophecy. That is, I think the "gold crowns" is actually referring to the color of her children's hair because, of course, that is the "proof" they are not Robert's trueborn children. Then, I think the "gold shrouds" does actually refer to the color of shrouds they will wear in death because, even though they are not Baratheons in truth, they will all die with the world believing they were.

That's my interpretation of it anyway :dunno:

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Definitions of shroud include:


noun


1) a length of cloth or an enveloping garment in which a dead person is wrapped for burial: "he was buried in a linen shroud"



2) a thing that envelops or obscures something: a shroud of mist


verb


1) wrap or dress (a body) in a shroud for burial.



2) cover or envelop so as to conceal from view:



Probably because of personal bias stemming from a gut feeling, I have taken it to mean that either Tommen or Myrcella, or even both, may not actually die before Cersei but at the very least be concealed from her or something similar. Its possible Myrcella already has that with the protection of the Golden "shroud" of Dorne. Alternatively, the Golden Company could conceal her from Cersei if it suits their purposes. It would actually fit quite well if she was taken by them; Doran agreed to return by land to King's Landing, as Cersei had requested. Looking at the map, any route by land from Sunspear or the Water Gardens to King's Landing would require travel through the Stormlands, thus putting Myrcella in a position where she can easily be taken by the Golden Company and concealed from Cersei


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