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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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That's your theory. My theory is that she screamed "sword" but the scream was in her mind. Nobody heard her, except herself and perhaps the demon-god Rh'llor, because, after all, it is rather hard to scream audibly when you are being strangled to death by a noose.

No. It's specifically says she screamed a word and GRRM confirmed that word was sword. And besides, what would it matter if she screamed the word sword in her mind?

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No. It's specifically says she screamed a word and GRRM confirmed that word was sword.

In the past, I have argued vigorously that it was "sword". It is nice to be right.

And besides, what would it matter if she screamed the word sword in her mind?

Dunno if it matters. But, for various reasons, I think she was not cut down in time, is now dead, and is now UnBrienne. Certainly, GRRM does not say otherwise. But obviously, you cannot scream "sword" in a way that is audible to mere mortals while you are hanging by the neck. So it is very unlikely that the folks stringing her up suddently decided to cut her down after the "scream".

Edited by Fearsome Fred

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Of course not. You cannot gasp for breath when you are being hanged. You cannot breath, gasp, wheeze, speak, talk or scream. And once you have reached the point where the pain is worse than anything you have ever experienced, you are far far past that stage.

Exhale or Inhale, what's the difference. If your air passages are blocked, air cannot move in EITHER direction. Duh!

Despite that GRRM has it written that "Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her." Not that she tried to suck the air in but couldn't but that she actually did it. So either you are wrong in your knowledge of hanging or GRRM got it wrong when he wrote it.

We see her walking around in Jaime's last chapter. Therefore, someone must have revived her.

Assuming she died of course. There are other possibilities (like she was cut down before death and it was all a rouse) so you can't talk in certainties.

Another undead character is tedious and pointless. You may have noticed that nobody has taken to this theory of yours, fans would not like it. Many fans think it's bad enough that Cat was revived, that it was cheap. How do you think they would react if Brienne was killed and revived for the purpose of what? Killing Jaime like she would be forced to do while alive anyway? There is no need for her to be undead. A conflict of interest is much better than a mindless quest for vengeance. Jaime and Brienne's characters have been developed the way they have for a reason. They detested each other then grew to respect one another and perhaps more. If it ended with an Un-Brienne fighting Jaime it would ruin everything GRRM has built up with these two. Including of course Jaime's dream where everyone else leaves him but Brienne. That would be null and void if she just plain goes out to kill him.

So yeah, I think you need to look past your medical knowledge on hanging and ask what purpose this would serve for the story and character development. You have one tangible piece of evidence to back it up but you're speaking in absolutes. Brienne's ultimate quest here is not revenge on Stannis, it's to find Sansa. I believe Brienne might turn on Un-Cat or refuse her at the last minute in order to fulfill this quest, because she can't complete it if she kills Jaime as he is the one giving her the go ahead to do it. I think Sansa overrides Stannis because the latter is too far north where a million other things are going on and I don't recall Brienne thinking much about her revenge on Stannis for a long long time. She is completely fuelled by finding Sansa and Arya now and finding one of the two is a much more realistic and achievable quest.

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I just wanted to say that I always figured that Brienne had yelled "sword" and all of the other guesses were the result of people just making it way too complicated for no good reason. :P

Yes!

So how many are for Trial by Combat, Brienne vs "The Hound" aka Lem Lemoncloak? (If this happens Lummel owes me some beer really nice afternoon tea. :P )

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At last, GRRM going for the obvious choice. I thought "sword" would be too simple for him, because he wrote it as if it was a miracle word. He wrote "sword or noose" earlier, and that made it obvious. I always thought that I should not go for simplicity in this series. I hate being wrong!!

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Delighted. Is it not a bit odd though that he answered a question people have been agonising over for a while now though? Maybe hes getting soft.....Id like Hyle to be alive as well-seems like a nice enough guy!

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So. It was officially sword. And Pod's alive.

HAH.

He was alive when Brienne left. He might still die before she returns.

I hope that both Pod and Ser Hyle survive.

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Despite that GRRM has it written that "Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her." Not that she tried to suck the air in but couldn't but that she actually did it.

That was before it reached the point of "Nothing had ever hurt so much." The scream comes after.

Assuming she died of course. There are other possibilities (like she was cut down before death and it was all a rouse) so you can't talk in certainties.

I never talked in certainties. I talk in theories. In possibilities. I have pointed out that it has NOT been confirmed by GRRM that Pod or Brienne survived or were cut down before death. I then stated what my THEORY was.

Another undead character is tedious and pointless.

Maybe. Maybe not. In any event, many are of the opinion that the books have already become tedious and pointless.

But regardless, GRRM has made comments in interviews about characters (plural) who come back from death, BESIDES BERIC, who, like Beric, display hints of having lost a large part of their humanity, and replacing it with a narrow focus on some mission they had in life which keeps them going. So he seems to claim we have seen at least 3 such characters (Beric, plus at least 2 more). The only 3 that fit this bill are UnBeric, UnCat, and UnBrienne.

UnBeric was fulfilling Ned's mission, but had forgotten the girl he was to marry.

UnCat was pursuing the motivations of her final act - merciless vengeance, and has apparently lost any interest in her daughters.

UnBrienne when we saw her, was pursuing her final mission: "sword" representing "take the sword and kill the kingslayer". Her target was a man she used to love, again displaying loss of humanity.

You may have noticed that nobody has taken to this theory of yours

I have noticed several posters subscribing to it. Maybe you should just speak for yourself.

Many fans think it's bad enough that Cat was revived, that it was cheap.

It will indeed be cheap and pointless if nothing comes of it. But just because you don't like the direction the story may be headed, does not prove it cannot be going in that direction.

How do you think they would react if Brienne was killed and revived

Beats me. Depends on how he handles it, I suppose. Anyway, I expect he will keep Brienne's undead revival secret for a while

... for the purpose of what?

I am unsure of the ultimate purpose. I would be hard pressed at this stage to prove the stories have a purpose at all. But I will make a few narrow guesses:

Brienne's purpose is to become the "shadow with the terrible face of a hound" from Bran's dream. Her true identity will remain unknown to the reader for quite some time. With her huge height, broad shoulders, half a face, and hound helm, she will be mistaken for Sandor. Her blue eyes, faded in undeath, will be mistaken for Sandor's grey (Note that Cat's blue eyes also seem to have turned grey). Her mission will continue to be "take the sword and kill the kingslayer". Her ultimate target: Stannis.

Note that UnCat has already been called a "shadow" by Thoros, and that patchface assures us that the "shadows are here to stay".

Jaime and Brienne's characters have been developed the way they have for a reason.

Jaime's purpose is to become the shadow in golden armor, from Bran's dream. It is possible that golden hand of his will be able to hold a flaming sword.

If it ended with an Un-Brienne fighting Jaime it would ruin everything GRRM has built up with these two.

It won't end that way. After she kills him, she will kiss him, passing on one of the 7 "kiss of fire" charges from UnCat.

Including of course Jaime's dream where everyone else leaves him but Brienne.

I seem to recall them being chained in some underworld together. This implies both are dead, and their souls not free.

You have one tangible piece of evidence to back it up [...]

No. My theory has been formed by putting together a number of clues.

... but you're speaking in absolutes.

Not at all. I am defending a theory.

Brienne's ultimate quest here is not revenge on Stannis, it's to find Sansa.

Are you "speaking in absolutes"? Her vengeance quest pre-dates her Sansa quest. But it is interesting that both she and Sandor have a connection to Sansa, since I think UnBrienne is the new Hound. GRRM never ruled out the undead being motivated by multiple missions. Also, since Sansa is reputedly a "kingslayer" (of Joffrey) her two missions can now be joined.

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No, another that fits is "unMelisandre," or even "unMoqorro." There is plenty of evidence that one or both of those two are undead. Or it could be someone we haven't figured out.

There is zero evidence that Brienne is undead. Literally zero. It's a guess, and I won't say it's impossible, but you should call a spade a spade.

Edited by Azizal

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No, another that fits is "unMelisandre," or even "unMoqorro." There is plenty of evidence that one or both of those two are undead.

Maybe. But whether they are "undead" was not the issue. You have changed the subject, and avoided addressing the issue. Neither UnMelisandre or UnMoqorro fit GRRM's words. We, the readers, have not seen them come back from death. We have seen no hints of their loss of humanity, as we never knew them when they were fully human. We have no knowledge of any missions they were given in life that they are pursuing in undeath.

There is zero evidence that Brienne is undead. Literally zero.

By this, you mean that there is no absolute PROOF; and that you intend to militantly ignore such evidence as is offered.

You are not interested in the theory. Goodbye then.

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I thought it was pretty obvious the word spoken was likely "sword." Something like "Jaime" might have made sense. But 90% of the theories were ridiculous.

Glad to see Martin chose something that actually made sense as opposed to some completely ridiculous, forced theory.

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if imagination could've run wild, i'd think myself Jamie's capture by the BwB, him demanding the trial by battle and fighting Brienne. Not only his whole arch will make sense for this ultimate battle, but he will also have to kill Brienne with the Oathkeeper, as she sacrifices herself for him bringing Jamies final redemption to climax. Just as he plunges the sword through her heart, it will burst into flames. Rest is known... We have several important components at hand, the Red Priest, the transformed half-Ice, Brienne's willing sacrifice.

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To those pondering the logic of story arcs, the usefulness of Brienne as a character, if Pod can kick ass, etc., and how all this can neatly be tied up with a bow ... to quote a famous TV personality ... "How's that workin out fer ya?" George is on record saying he writes "organically" meaning he has some idea of where he's going, but just sits down and writes and is sometimes surprised at how things turn out. He didn't kill Ned in the first book because of some calculated plot device, and he found writing the Red Wedding to be so painful he skipped that chapter and came back to it when the rest of the book was done. He lets the story tell itself with all of the gritty truth he can uncover along the way. If anything, George is painfully faithful to the characters and their motivations, so if that means somebody dies, somebody loses a hand, somebody picks a fight they can't win ... they will. Just keep that in mind as you are trying to guess where this is going.

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But regardless, GRRM has made comments in interviews about characters (plural) who come back from death, BESIDES BERIC, who, like Beric, display hints of having lost a large part of their humanity, and replacing it with a narrow focus on some mission they had in life which keeps them going. So he seems to claim we have seen at least 3 such characters (Beric, plus at least 2 more). The only 3 that fit this bill are UnBeric, UnCat, and UnBrienne.

Beric, Catelyn...and hmm...I wonder who it could be...umm...you know...

Well, Robert Strong is definitely a legitimate human being. Brienne is obviously an abomination when we see her in ADwD.

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Beric, Catelyn...and hmm...I wonder who it could be...umm...you know...

Well, Robert Strong is definitely a legitimate human being. Brienne is obviously an abomination when we see her in ADwD.

Sorry. But like the fellow who suggested UnMelisandre and UnMoquorro, you have avoided the actual question.

Apart from being undead (which was not the issue) how does Robert Strong fit? Where have we seen his loss of humanity? Did he have any humanity to lose, and, if he did, did the readers know him enough to see him lose it? Have we seen (yet) any evidence of any focus on a mission from his life?

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