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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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Mel said herself in her pov that she only eats so that people do not get curious on the topic if she is alive or not. She says rhillor gives her all the sustenance she needs.

Yes but I thought she also said she looked a lot different, that she changed her looks and her body, kind of like a faceless man...err...woman

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I think Stoneheart has some plans for Jaime besides just killing him. She's probably still torn up about RW and wants to kill more Freys. She might use him to get the BWB into the Twins and take control of it from the inside since they don't have the manpower to take it but they have the power to hold it. Once they have the Twins, the riverland Freys will be pretty much extinct while the northern ones are getting slaughtered courtesy of Stannis and Manderly. Once the RW has been avenged Stoneheart will probably lose the gift from R'hllor and Gendry might take up the leadership of the BWB

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He can't enter because the magic prevents wights from entering and he is a wight, even if he's working with the Children of the Forest.

I won't argue with that. They (the CotF & Coldhands)have to be at the very least, collaborating- I don't think the stag would naturally volunteer to carry a wight as Summer definitely didn't like the smell of him. I'm not sure why I'm resisting the idea of him literally being Warged- it just seemed like he had something of his own personality.

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I think Stoneheart has some plans for Jaime besides just killing him.

That must be why she told Brienne to "Take the sword and bring the Kingslayer to me ..."

Oh, wait ... am I remembering that right?

Edited by Fearsome Fred

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GRRM never suggested only 3 return from the dead. He indicated that of those characters that have returned from the dead, "some" (evidently at least 3) have shown echoes of a particular pattern: focus on mission they had in life, which they focus on to compensate for a loss of humanity.

I see no argument from you that we have seen this pattern with Coldhands. And if Coldhands was Benjen, would not Bran recognize him

Given that she was being strangled by a noose, it is (at the very least) PLAUSIBLE, that the word she screamed was not intelligible to her executioners, who hence would not have cut her down. Hence, we certainly do not HAVE to accept that she MUST be alive.

RE: Coldhands- Benjen was obviously on a mission ranging beyond the Wall- I assume to assess the threat & find out why there was an increase in Wildlings fleeing south; he would feel bound to protect his brothers in the Watch and his family. I think all the descriptions of Coldhands have him hooded with his face not visible- so Bran may not recognize him if he is unBenjen.

RE: Brienne- I agree no absolute proof she's alive- but I feel that only

as a live human could she embody the dramatic tension between keeping her oath and protecting the man she loves. So I just think GRRM has at least one more test for her as a human.

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RE: Coldhands- Benjen was obviously on a mission ranging beyond the Wall- I assume to assess the threat & find out why there was an increase in Wildlings fleeing south; he would feel bound to protect his brothers in the Watch and his family.

Benjen has no particular loyalty to family, as Benjen emphasizes to Jon when he leaves on his mission. You are equating loyalty to family with loyalty to the Night Watch, when GRRM & Benjen & Jon & Aemon have gone so far to contrast them and paint them as being in conflict

Benjen's mission while alive had nothing to do with Coldhands current mission: bring Bran Stark to the 3-eyed crow. They are not even remotely the same mission. If they are somehow related in some way we do not know, then it can hardly be said that WE have seen this similarity, so again, we have not seen these echoes of UnBeric.

Benjen/Coldhands does not fit. Anyway, I don't think Coldhands is Benjen. Leaf says he died long ago.

Look, of you are really that DESPERATE to ignore the implications of GRRM's words, I have a far more simple solution. Maybe he just misspoke. Maybe his use of the plural was an accident. Maybe the only other person he had in mind was UnCat.

Edited by Fearsome Fred

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You're focusing way too heavily on the "mission" part of George's quote. What strikes me as much more relevant is the broader idea of loss of humanity and altered personalities through resurrection. We've seen that a ton. Aeron and Patchface, for non-wight, non-Rh'llor examples.

But to humor you on the mission thing, Gregor's sole purpose in undeath seems to be to serve his queen. (Or perhaps Qyburn. Uh oh!)

And assuming Coldhands is Benjen, he's clinging to his ultimate mission of defending the realm against the horrors of the north. How does that not work exactly?

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Right his mission was to defend the realm but he did have personal warmth for the Stark family. Much like Beric we barely knew him...

Still, whether he "counts" or not has no bearing on Brienne, who could be either alive or undead. But I vote alive. Because undead would kill a set-up GRRM spent a whole book on.

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Casso King of Seals wrote:

You're focusing way too heavily on the "mission" part of George's quote.

How so? Mission/purpose is exactly what GRRM is focussed on in the 2 sentences that precede "we see echos of that." The meaning of the word "that" can only be determined by looking at context.

Yes, I get it. You don't like my theory. But that does not mean I am misreading the quote.

What strikes me as much more relevant is the broader idea of loss of humanity and altered personalities through resurrection.

Your preference is fueled by nothing more than the arbitrary fact that you do not like my theory. But I have not ignored that aspect. I have considered the whole context. You (however) are about to ignore that aspect of the context whenever it suits you, as you do in the UnGregor example below.

With UnBrienne, I need not ignore either aspect of the context. They both fit perfectly.

But to humor you on the mission thing, Gregor's sole purpose in undeath seems to be to serve his queen. (Or perhaps Qyburn. Uh oh!)

No. We have seen no such thing. You just made it up. We have no idea what UnGregor's "purpose in undeath" is. As you admit, for all we have SEEN, he may be serving Qyburn now. We have not seen any loss of humanity (he had as far as we know, none to lose); we have not seen any focus on a mission he had in life.

You are doing nothing more than speculating that he MIGHT fit the pattern. You can point to no evidence of this that we have SEEN. GRRM claims he is referring to something he thinks we have SEEN.

And assuming Coldhands is Benjen, he's clinging to his ultimate mission of defending the realm against the horrors of the north. How does that not work exactly?

It does not work because it is just your speculation, not something we "have seen". You are making up that Coldhand's purpose is defending the realm from the horrors of the North. It seems to me more likely he is a servant of the Great Other.

Anyway, Coldhands is not Benjen. Leaf, who is VERY old, says that Coldhands died long ago.

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Look, of you are really that DESPERATE to ignore the implications of GRRM's words, I have a far more simple solution. Maybe he just misspoke. Maybe his use of the plural was an accident. Maybe the only other person he had in mind was UnCat.

Maybe, maybe not. What about the Undying? Don't they fit the description?

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Why ask me? If you think they fit the pattern, then say how they fit.

Why shouldn't I? You have discussed why everybody else does not fit the pattern. So you must have considered them as well.

The Undying seem devoid of humanity as if it eroded away over time. Maybe they are missing it as they seem to hunger for life. And they have a mission, too: they preserve and pass on knowledge. Their knowledge no longer means anything to them if it ever did. Empty as their existence may seem, they hang on to it with fierce determination.

It is possible that Brienne died but I will be very surprised if that is the case. There is nobody present who could would bring her back from the dead. UnCat could probably bring her back, but she would most likely die in the act, as Beric Dondarrion died when he brought her back. And UnCat is not ready yet to give up her (un)life, she burns with the desire to fulfill her mission. Thoros might be able to bring Briennce back. He seemed to harbor doubts about his ability, though, and he really has no reason to bring her back. He is not happy with the direction in which UnCat is taking the BWB, so why would he bring back Brienne as a pawn of UnCat's revenge?

Edited by Tini

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The Undying seem devoid of humanity as if it eroded away over time. Maybe they are missing it as they seem to hunger for life. And they have a mission, too: they preserve and pass on knowledge. Their knowledge no longer means anything to them if it ever did. Empty as their existence may seem, they hang on to it with fierce determination.

What's your point? To admit they don't fit GRRM's words? I don't get it!

You are making loose associations, without any actually correlations. To begin with, there is no evidence that the "undying" have died, and returned from death. I could go on, but what's the point? I don't think GRRM was talking about the undying, and I don't think you think so either.

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Anyway, Coldhands is not Benjen. Leaf, who is VERY old, says that Coldhands died long ago.

To be fair, that does point against Benjen as Coldhands. When Bran worries that the wights will kill Coldhands, Leaf says, "They killed him long ago." So right, when a 200 year old person says this, you don't think 2 years ago. But maybe he just meant "They killed him already", and wanted to add a little gravitas to the line. Anyhoo...

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I'm not saying he's Benjen but when people say "a long time" it means different things in different contexts. I haven't had a good steak in "a long time" which is like 5 weeks even though 5 weeks is also not that long compared to the span of my life.

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I'm not saying he's Benjen but when people say "a long time" it means different things in different contexts. I haven't had a good steak in "a long time" which is like 5 weeks even though 5 weeks is also not that long compared to the span of my life.

The exact words here are "long ago", which to my ears create a stronger implication of a significant passage of time. But perhaps someone with the right program will do a text search of the volumes to see if GRRM ever uses "long ago" to refer to fairly recent events.

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not exactly sure of the timing but couldn't long ago at that point mean like 2 years

It could. But a 200-year old is less likely than a 15-year old to use such language for events only 2 years old.

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Maybe she means long ago in terms of Bran... to Bran, it is almost 1/4 of his life that his uncle has been missing and everything has changed for him since it happened - he was crippled, his family disintegrated, his father and brother are dead. That seems like 'long ago' to me. It probably seems like long ago to Coldhands too, if he is Benjen.

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