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Hmadkour

[TWOW Spoilers] Miscon reading : two Winds of Winter chapters

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Only had time to read the first page, so sorry if anyone else said this:

But come'on people! Just check the Index. There is ANOTHER brotherhood without banners still out there, led by Edric Dayne. You don't think they're going to have a part to play? The two groups clashing and rescuing Jaime and Brienne is an easy and exciting way to save them.

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It seems to me that Brienne, the Hound, Sansa, and probably Littlefinger will all end up in the same place eventually. Then the Hound will kill Littlefinger, Sansa will become Queen of the Vale, Brienne will serve on her Queensgaurd and fall in love with a reformed and now (mostly) honorable Hound. Then they'll all live happily ever after... at lest until the Others show up and wreck everything!

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Only had time to read the first page, so sorry if anyone else said this:

But come'on people! Just check the Index. There is ANOTHER brotherhood without banners still out there, led by Edric Dayne. You don't think they're going to have a part to play? The two groups clashing and rescuing Jaime and Brienne is an easy and exciting way to save them.

On the one hand, it's hard for me to imagine the other brotherhood without banners being super interested in rescuing Jaime and Brienne... why should they care, especially about Jaime? On the other hand, if they aren't going to do something, why make such a point of identifying the split clearly, and who belongs to which group, in the appendix? And with time running short, if they are going to do something, it probably has to come with this storyline. So you may have a point.

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It seems to me that Brienne, the Hound, Sansa, and probably Littlefinger will all end up in the same place eventually. Then the Hound will kill Littlefinger, Sansa will become Queen of the Vale, Brienne will serve on her Queensgaurd and fall in love with a reformed and now (mostly) honorable Hound. Then they'll all live happily ever after... at lest until the Others show up and wreck everything!

My sweet summerchild...

About the brotherhood. I think it may well be possible that UnCat has already joined up with the other part of the BwB. I believe strongly in a single combat duel between Brienne and Jaime where they both don't want to kill each other despite the fact they may get killed themselves.

We also saw Moqorro working some magic with Victarion's hand. Maybe the red priest in the BwB works some magic into Jaime's golden hand, animates it and makes it unable to lift a sword for unjust causes. Instead of an oath he must swear he gets a binding contract with his hand. If he can only fight evil with it, he has to use his left hand to fight good. Just throwing that out there.

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anyway after he finished reading the chapters, he opened the floor to some discussion about the plot of asoiaf, and some amazing genius girl said: you know my friends and i were debating this pretty heavily in the lobby just today, brienne screams “one word” as she is being hung by lady stoneheart’s men in a feast for crows - what was the word?

george turned the question on the audience and asked if anyone had figured it out - we shouted all kinds of dumb stuff, “jaime”, “sapphires”, etc. but some other genius in the second row said “sword”!

george confirmed that the word brienne screamed was “sword”; lady stoneheart gave brienne the choice of either swearing her sword to her or being hung, saying “sword or noose”, and as brienne was being hung she screamed “sword”

the questions moved on for some time, but then a girl asked “well what about podrick payne? he was getting hung with brienne!” and george confirmed that brienne had made the decision to swear her sword to stoneheart in order to save the innocent podrick payne from the noose

I usually dont look for Spoilers but this puts my mind at rest about Brienne. Although she promised Jaime it makes sense that her promise to Catelyn supersedes it. And I feel dumb for not thinking of "sword"

Edited by rmholt

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Re: Mel. While she may not be undead in the exact way that Beric and Cat are, she is clearly some variant of "un." She thinks to herself the she has practiced her art of reading the flames for years beyond count. So she can't be a regular mortal, she is far too old.

I hope Pod makes it through to the end of the series.

Edited by Miriel

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Re: Mel. While she may not be undead in the exact way that Beric and Cat are, she is clearly some variant of "un." She thinks to herself the she has practiced her art of reading the flames for years beyond count. So she can't be a regular mortal, she is far too old.

I hope Pod makes it through to the end of the series.

More likely she cant count very high.

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More likely she cant count very high.

There is no indication that she cannot count very high. It is more likely that she used "years beyond count" to mean "more years than she cares to remember" if she is just a regular human being.

Which she is not, as is indicated by her statement that she doesn't need food.

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More likely she cant count very high.

What's with the Mel hating? I wish there were an "don't like" button.

There is no indication that she cannot count very high. It is more likely that she used "years beyond count" to mean "more years than she cares to remember" if she is just a regular human being.

Which she is not, as is indicated by her statement that she doesn't need food.

I think Mel is still "human" just as the other Red Priests in the series. That she is always warm to the touch, indicates that something has happended to her that enables her to live without food and be able to see visions in fire. She doesn't need food, because she receives sustanence from R'hllor. It seems like each of the Red Priests have different abilities, for example Thoros of Myr can raise the dead, while Quaithe of the Shadow provides cryptic future telling.

An interesting sidenote: the Red Priests all have the ability to raise the dead, but they don't seem to be able to "heal" the dead once they are un-dead. Cases in point: Beric Dondarrion and Catlyn Stark. Which reinforces my belief that Jon isn't going to die. I think he'll be near death, and Melidandre will heal his wounds with fire, similar to Moqorro's healing Victarion's hand.

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An interesting sidenote: the Red Priests all have the ability to raise the dead, but they don't seem to be able to "heal" the dead once they are un-dead. Cases in point: Beric Dondarrion and Catlyn Stark.

Well, Thoros did manage to fuse various of Lord Beric's body parts back together, close holes in his flesh from lances and swords, etc. It just worked a little less well each time, and worked as well as it did because he was "freshly dead." Cat's corpse was three days gone and waterlogged before she was raised.

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I think Mel is still "human" just as the other Red Priests in the series. That she is always warm to the touch, indicates that something has happended to her that enables her to live without food and be able to see visions in fire. She doesn't need food, because she receives sustanence from R'hllor. It seems like each of the Red Priests have different abilities, for example Thoros of Myr can raise the dead, while Quaithe of the Shadow provides cryptic future telling.

Like Melisandre, Quaithe is also a shadowbinder, but unlike Mel, Quaithe is not also a red priestess — as far as I know.

Moqorro and Melisandre do not need human sustenance. It’s hard to consider them wholly human any longer.

Then again, the same could be said for Lord Commander Brynden Rivers, the albino sorceror who once ruled the Seven Kingdoms in all but name, and still watches over them now and forever.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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The reason Beric resurrected Cat was that he had promised Arya to reunite her with her mother, and obviously because he was kind of tired with unlife. Another observation. As far as we can tell, Beric's and Cat's faculties, other than memory in Beric's case, seem intact.

On a possible trial be combat.Lady Catelyn has no reason to give Jaime a trial by combat. Trials are meant to determine guilt or innocense. She knows he is guilty, at least of pushing Bran out the window. She also knows of his actions at the siege of Riverrun. She can hang him for these. The only thing that is in question is whether she charged Brienne with finding Sansa in order to keep her safe or to deliver them to the queen. For that she might make Brienne find him. This would be a very interesting trial. For one Jamie does not need to be alive for Brienne to keep her oath to him. Also, A victorious Brienne would mean that they are both guilty.

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Like Melisandre, Quaithe is also a shadowbinder, but unlike Mel, Quaithe is not also a red priestess — as far as I know.

Thanks. When I saw the post above I wanted to ask the same thing. I knew she was supposedly from Asshai, but I didn't think she was a RP.

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There is no indication that she cannot count very high. It is more likely that she used "years beyond count" to mean "more years than she cares to remember" if she is just a regular human being.

Which she is not, as is indicated by her statement that she doesn't need food.

What's with the Mel hating? I wish there were an "don't like" button.

I dont like her because she doesnt know how to say "I dont know" - even if she is guessing. One case in point: Arya vs Alys. Thoros can say he doesnt know. So far Moqorro hasnt been uncertain of anything so dont know about him. I dont like anyone in real life who causes problems by claiming certainty when they dont have it - who cross their fingers and hope their guess is right.

I had this beaten out of me in my training. Whoever trained her at Asshai probably tried to beat it out of her too, since ppl like Thoros knew better.

I bet she has convinced herself that Stannis has lightbringer even though a blind man knew better

Edited by rmholt

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There is no indication that she cannot count very high. It is more likely that she used "years beyond count" to mean "more years than she cares to remember" if she is just a regular human being.

Which she is not, as is indicated by her statement that she doesn't need food.

What's with the Mel hating? I wish there were an "don't like" button.

I dont like her because she doesnt know how to say "I dont know" - even if she is guessing. One case in point: Arya vs Alys. Thoros can say he doesnt know. So far Moqorro hasnt been uncertain of anything so dont know about him. I dont like anyone in real life who causes problems by claiming certainty when they dont have it - who cross their fingers and hope their guess is right.

I had this beaten out of me in my training. Whoever trained her at Asshai probably tried to beat it out of her too, since ppl like Thoros knew better.

I bet she has convinced herself that Stannis has lightbringer even though a blind man knew better

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Pretty sure the Shadowbinder is just another term for red-priest in the land of Asshai. Rh'llor is the God of Flame and Shadow. I don't think you can be a shadowbinder unless you're part of his religion.

Actually, we haven't heard another red priest mentioning shadows. I think Melissandre is something of heretic.

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For the record, I agree. I did not argue her "undead" status only because I saw no need to. Regardless of whether Melisandre is or is not undead, it cannot be said that we readers have seen any echoes of the pattern he describes in UnBeric.

Also GRRM's past comments seem to indicate that UnPersons do not get POVs.

Mel seems to be be extremely focused on her "mission" though. I would have said she fits the pattern perfectly. Everything she does is to aid give rise to AA and battle the Unnamed God. It's as if somewhere the Red Priests or whomever it was got together and assigned her the task of heralding the return of AA and leading the battle. And oh yeah, then killing her and bringing her back to undeath so she could survive an unnaturally long time to complete the mission.

Also, I find the Mel POV to be one of the strangest detours in the entire series. She's been there since CoK and all of a sudden we get a single POV chapter to clue us in on several things about her nature, and possibly Jon's nature, but not really to advance anything as far as I can tell.

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Also, I find the Mel POV to be one of the strangest detours in the entire series. She's been there since CoK and all of a sudden we get a single POV chapter to clue us in on several things about her nature, and possibly Jon's nature, but not really to advance anything as far as I can tell.

Could just be to justify a familiar pair of eyes on the Wall with Jon down for the count, like Barristan suddenly becoming a PoV for Dany's side with Quentyn dead and Dany herself MIA.

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I think Cat has been consumed by getting revenge on the Frey's since her 'return'. The only thing that would overcome this obsession with revenge is her love for her children. However she thinks they are all dead. Now Edric Dayne, and some other members of the BWB know that Arya was alive, so Cat at some point has to hear about Arya being alive. Cat originally released Jaime under Brienne's guard as he had agreed to ensure her daughters return in exchange. She will get Brienne to lure Jaime into her captivity and make him swear to fulfill that promise as a priority. However Sansa is still hidden in the Vale. So I doubt Jaime, Brienne and Cat will go there. But word will have spread South that Ramsey Bolton is marrying Arya Stark at Winterfell. So I think they will end up travelling to Winterfell to find Arya (even though she is fake).

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