A Look at Valar Morghulis

[Westeros]

First, apologies for the delay in posting our coverage of “Valar Morghulis”—you have probably noticed that the server has been almost entirely unavailable the last days, and we had similar issues with the server that hosted the forum and wiki, and that occupied… well, way too much of our time. The good news is that we’ve moved the latter server to a much faster box… and we’ll be shifting the website over to that server as well, in time (perhaps even this week), which should vastly improve speed and reliability of the site.So, in any case, our coverage is up! Check it out and let us know what you think. We’ll be getting our extra video up tomorrow some time, with any luck, but you’ll find our Thronecast appearance (which features a bit more of us than usual—make sure to watch through the end!) and my appearance on the Talking TV podcast embedded in the Extras section.

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[Javi Marcos]

All the non-book readers I know loved the epidode. When I read the thread "GoT is not an adaptation of ASOIAF any more" I felt very sad. Book purist very terribly disgusting, I could almost smell the hate.

In my opinion, many people in this forum doesn't realize that 60-75% of the watchers of the TV series are non-book readers. And all of my non-book readers friends who watch the show have the same complain about GoT:

-too much magic without sense

-too much characters, too many families and connections to remember (you can count right now 40-50 characters in the show)

For them, book HoU would be terrible. More magic (mice raping a woman? are U mad?). More characters: Elia of Dor..where? Rhaegar who? Is him the son of Dany who died before born?

Instead, they loved the Iron burned and snow scene. That even lead them to theorysize: Is Dany going to marry/save/be a rival of Jon?

Even more they loved Khal Drogo's comeback. Both men (he is awesome) and female (perfect man with a baby? Perfection OVER 9000).

[DirePenguin]

Luwin dieing moment didn't look like he's dieing at all. He looked strong, speaking perfectly clear and oh so very active : / It's weird.

[Mongrel]

Did Ironborn know about some sort of promise of amnesty? Or we should imagine so?

A book reader should imagine so, since

that's exactly what the Bastard did to the few remaining Ironborn in Moat Cailin.

[protar]

All the non-book readers I know loved the epidode. When I read the thread "GoT is not an adaptation of ASOIAF any more" I felt very sad. Book purist very terribly disgusting, I could almost smell the hate.

In my opinion, many people in this forum doesn't realize that 60-75% of the watchers of the TV series are non-book readers. And all of my non-book readers friends who watch the show have the same complain about GoT:

-too much magic without sense

-too much characters, too many families and connections to remember (you can count right now 40-50 characters in the show)

For the, book HoU would be terrible. More magic (mice raping a woman? are U mad?). More characters: Elia of Dor..where? Rhaegar who? Is him the son of Dany who died before born?

Instead, they loved the Iron burned and snow scene. That even lead them to theorysize: Is Dany going to marry/save/be a rival of Jon?

Even more they loved Khal Drogo's comeback. Both men (he is awesome) and female (perfect man with a baby? Perfection OVER 9000).

I'll admit that the HOTU scene was pretty atmoshperic, but what purpose did it serve? I can see why they're trimming down on the prohecies in general, as Martin does overuse them and it does feel like they're constricting the direction of the story at times. However the three fires prophecy is a major part of Dany's development, she obsesses over it. They could have atleast included that.

[Ran]

Actually, Robb tells Roose to send word to his bastard that all the ironborn will be allowed to return home if they lay down their arms, except Theon. So I'm supposing that's what the ironborn figured they'd do -- Theon was the only one threatend with death if they surrendered.

[protar]

The bolded sentence scares me. Purists fans have overreacted. This is just a TV series about a book, even not at all one of the best books ever written. Relax and get a life.

Of course the TV series is not perfect. In this episode, for example, I didn't like how D&D delievered the Qhorin-Jon scene, with no Ghost at all. I'd also have loved the HoU prophecies, but they are impossible, being realistic, of being filmed in the Season Finale of TV series of a mainstream channel such as HBO.

I may complain that maybe LF isn't as great as in the books or that Margaery (what a dress she wears in this episode!) looks too gorgeous. But those are "mistakes" I may live with them.

The reason book purists are getting so mad is because there are no reasons for like 90% of these changes. It just shows to me that D+D clearly don't care about the source material or at the very least have woefully misunderstood it. Couldn't we get Ran or someone to produce the show from here on out? :P

[Ran]

I won't even pretend I can do what D&D do, in terms of breaking the story, structuring it for themes, figuring out how these things play off one another, organizing the many, many myriad production details that probably keep them up nights. They're doing a very tough job, on every metric and in every facet you can think of.

But I just wish they had done a better job of capturing the novels than they did this season with some of the storylines.

If every storyline had been as good as Tyrion's or Theon's this season, there wouldn't be anything to complain about, so far as I am concerned.

[The Last Dragon]

I would love to see some proof for those 75%. Actually, its more likely its the other way around.

You really think that!? From the millions of people watching it on HBO US? To the ten millions of Europeans, Asians, South Americans and Australians how are lurking this by Usenet or Torrent-sites?

I truly believe that every episode of GoT is watched by more than 50+ million people worldwide, and my guess is that 80% never gave a single look at Martins work.

If they would be making this show for book readers, season one would be canceled around episode 4.

[Ran]

Season 1 rather was made for book readers. It did pretty well.

[The Last Dragon]

Season 1 rather was made for book readers. It did pretty well.

What makes you say season one was made for book-readers?

[Jussi]

I'm a book reader (big fan of aSoIaF) and I enjoyed season two more than S1. I agree with this article:

http://www.avclub.com/articles/in-restructuring-its-foundation-game-of-thrones-bu%2C76961/

[boojam]

I won't even pretend I can do what D&D do, in terms of breaking the story, structuring it for themes, figuring out how these things play off one another, organizing the many, many myriad production details that probably keep them up nights. They're doing a very tough job, on every metric and in every facet you can think of.

But I just wish they had done a better job of capturing the novels than they did this season with some of the storylines.

If every storyline had been as good as Tyrion's or Theon's this season, there wouldn't be anything to complain about, so far as I am concerned.

Here is one question I would like to see David Benioff and D. B. Weiss asked, what did they think of this season?

Were there lessons learned?

I just got the vibes that story narrative just did not get enough thought. Too little analysis went into solving the problem with the dramatic narrative.

I don't envy them, fitting such a large story into 10 hours is daunting.

Last season I thought the whole 'Ros narrative' served (an oddball) purpose , but sexplanation was a useful narrative device, if a bit awkward one.

It's strange, I have come to like Esme Bianco, never heard of her before, but she is a good actress and even better this year than last. The question is what is , what was Benioff and Weiss 's narrative purpose for this character, that could not have been served by some other character? Except for the last of first episode of this season she has only served as an empty loop, as a cypher for LF that character advances the plot narrative , zero. Why does she have an arc that goes nowhere?

O well , that's just one teleplay bump in the road.

I have to agree with Javi Marcos above. All the friends I watch it with are non readers, and they just love the characters, and all but one can keep up with the 'jump cut' tale (that one by the way has stopped watching).

They were actually looking forward to seeing all the major characters appear in the final episode.

So I am afraid you alls note about ending certain characters stories in episode 8, say Arya's (which could have been done) would not have been popular with them. The non readers (and I am not sure about all readers) and I am guessing HBO would not have been happy with it , no matter how logical it might have been to the story.

Such is logic placed against TV-logic!

The other thing I would like to know , George says he knows what adaptation can mean for the source material... but is he happy with this 10 hour format, or especially the invention of plot narrative that seems superfluous?

I am satisfied that that the backbone of Geroge's story survived, ecstatic about how good the cast is, still blown away by production design and cinematography and satisfied with the episode directors.

I would just like an explanation as to why the teleplays did not seem to get a really thoughtful think-through given the rather character heavy elaborated plot.

There must be more than one way to pound 100 pounds of prose narrative into a 10 pound teleplay bag?!

Are we going to have a thread here with a critique of all of season 2?

[Glyndwr]

Well I'm a huge fan of the books and have read & re-read them I dont know how many times & I personally think the show is great....!!!

The sheer scope in the books make it impossible for a tv adaption to adhere perfectly to them.

GRRM himself has said that some fans are getting a bit carried away with the changes that have been made & should just chill out a bit !!!

LOTR had this problem when certain characters & arcs were cut but a sh@t load of oscars cant be wrong.....!!!

Just enjoy the fact that we have the books & a tv show

[DurararaFTW]

Did Ironborn know about some sort of promise of amnesty? Or we should imagine so?

Yeah, Robb told Roose to grant all Ironborns that surrender free passage home, save for theon. Roose replies that this will indeed most likely lead to the Ironborns turning on theon. This scene is repeated in the episode 10 recap. That much was clear. We were sorta seeing things from Luwin and Theon's perspective so I get that this wasn't needlessly spelled out to us again in the episode.

[protar]

Well I'm a huge fan of the books and have read & re-read them I dont know how many times & I personally think the show is great....!!!

The sheer scope in the books make it impossible for a tv adaption to adhere perfectly to them.

GRRM himself has said that some fans are getting a bit carried away with the changes that have been made & should just chill out a bit !!!

LOTR had this problem when certain characters & arcs were cut but a sh@t load of oscars cant be wrong.....!!!

Just enjoy the fact that we have the books & a tv show

This is true, but George was reffering to fans complaining over the fact that Syrio had hair, or that horses were the wrong colour etc. I sincerely doubt he was talking about changes on the level of what we have seen in season 2 and in all likelyhood he's furious and is just putting on a good face for the public. He's a book purist himself when it comes to adaptations so it makes no sense that he'd suddenly be so flippant about changes to his own series.

I'm a book reader (big fan of aSoIaF) and I enjoyed season two more than S1. I agree with this article:

http://www.avclub.co...nes-bu%2C76961/

That article is pure blasphemy :P. Boils my blood.

[LordDolorousEdd]

robb's wedding!!!!! WHY THE HELL WAS IT 'IN THE LIGHT OF THE SEVEN!!!!!!! would it have been that much harder to stick him in front of a heart tree??????

[Fez]

I'm a book reader (big fan of aSoIaF) and I enjoyed season two more than S1. I agree with this article:

http://www.avclub.co...nes-bu%2C76961/

Good article, I agree. I think its telling that most reviewers, particularly non-readers, have given higher praise to season 2 than to season 1; its just better television, a better show. Like I've said before, it might take some slightly different paths than the book, but its telling the same story, and doing it very well. And personally I can't wait to see ASOS in visual form; sure some stuff will be different, maybe even a few of my favorite scenes will be gone, but the important stuff will happen. Its going to be great.

[protar]

Good article, I agree. I think its telling that most reviewers, particularly non-readers, have given higher praise to season 2 than to season 1; its just better television, a better show. Like I've said before, it might take some slightly different paths than the book, but its telling the same story, and doing it very well. And personally I can't wait to see ASOS in visual form; sure some stuff will be different, maybe even a few of my favorite scenes will be gone, but the important stuff will happen. Its going to be great.

It's not been cheers all round though. If you go over on the TWOP forums you'll notice that enthusiasm for the show has dwindled quite a bit this season. It's just that the more casual viewers aren't picking up on all the plot holes and poor writing. Compared to most shows this is great afterall, and credit has to go where it's due: To George R.R. Martin for giving them such strong source material that it's good even after it's been soiled, and most certainly not to D+D for making a botch of it.

Season 3 is a beacon of hope for me. Perhaps with 20 episodes to adapt one book they won't feel the need to invent stuff. Doubtful, but we can hope.

[The hairy bear]

I think it's fair to say that the show is a completely different experience depending on whether you are a non-book reader* or a book reader. For instance, probably, we'd all agree that Arya's storyline in A Clash of Kings was a much more exciting experience than her plot in season 2. That a book reader will regret the missed oportunities here is only logical. Meanwhile, a new viewer who can watch the show without the burden of having to compare everything to the source material, can enjoy Arya's exploits at this toned down flavourless version of Harrenhal.

It's been a good season compared to the rest of TV shows out there? Yes.

The source material had potential for doing a much better show? Yes, too.