Was Tyrion a good hand?

[Evamitchelle]

The Antler men weren't important.

That's not what I said (though they were pretty prominent citizens of King's Landing). My point is that giving Joffrey the Antler Men, who didn't even have a trial, so he could amuse himself with them and leave Tyrion to his business is not trying to stop Joffrey's cruel acts. He's purposefully enabling them to get his way actually.

[LordBloodraven]

Tyrion reining up Joffrey's cruelty ? Like when he gave him the Antler Men to play with ?

The Antler Men were potential traitors and not that important.

[danm_999]

That's not what I said (though they were pretty prominent citizens of King's Landing). My point is that giving Joffrey the Antler Men, who didn't even have a trial, so he could amuse himself with them and leave Tyrion to his business is not trying to stop Joffrey's cruel acts. He's purposefully enabling them to get his way actually.

Oh yeah, he totally sends them to Joffrey to slaughter, agreed.

I thought you meant Tyrion didn't stop Joffrey killing anyone important. He did stop Joffrey's cruelty to a large extent, but not completely, as the Antler Men show us.

[Winter's Knight]

But it indicates he knew when to stop pushing against Cersei. He feigned weakness when he was strong. That's not the characteristic of someone who relentlessly antagonises.

No, he doesn't. At this point Shae is serving Lollys Stokeworth, so Cersei has absolutely no way of finding her through the brothel. Her safety is assured.

He does it because he wants Cersei to think she's beaten him.

By threatening to rape Tommen?

Tyrion wanted to laugh at her. It would have been so sweet, so very very sweet, but it would have given the game away. You’ve lost, Cersei, and the Kettleblacks are even bigger fools than Bronn claimed. All he needed to do was say the words.

Instead he looked at the girl’s face and said, “You swear you’ll release her after the battle?”

“If you release Tommen, yes.”

He pushed himself to his feet. “Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point

out that a scale tips two ways.” His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he’d reached for his father’s voice, and found it. “Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. “You would not dare.”

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. “Dare? I’ll do it myself.”

[Castel]

Then Tyrion was a terrible hand, seeing as how he's supposed to serve the Regent.

No he wasn't. He was told to get KL in order and that's what he did.

Apologising for imprisoning the Grand Maestar when you yourself imprisoned him is not exactly laying on the olive branch.

And the bolded part-he did it for Shae.

Letting said Grandmaster go though is.

[John W]

Given what he had to contend with, Cersei, Joffrey, being a dwarf, I say yes.

[LordBloodraven]

That's not what I said (though they were pretty prominent citizens of King's Landing). My point is that giving Joffrey the Antler Men, who didn't even have a trial, so he could amuse himself with them and leave Tyrion to his business is not trying to stop Joffrey's cruel acts. He's purposefully enabling them to get his way actually.

The Antler Men were trying to help Stannis, according to Varys. A trial wasn't possible and the King wanted at all price to use the Three Whores. A sacrifice was needed.

Besides, if we judge Tyrion's bilan, perhaps it's best to consider what he has done and not why he was arguing with his sister.

[danm_999]

By threatening to rape Tommen?

That's part of the deception. He needs Cersei to think she's got something significant to him.

If Tyrion really wanted to antagonise her, he could threaten to rape Tommen and then tell her Alayaya isn't his whore.

[Winter's Knight]

That's part of the deception. He needs Cersei to think she's got something significant to him.

If Tyrion really wanted to antagonise her, he could threaten to rape Tommen and then tell her Alayaya isn't his whore.

You're reaching now-telling the Queen that you'll rape her son is antagonising her.

[danm_999]

You're reaching now-telling the Queen that you'll rape her son is antagonising her.

That you'll rape her son if your whore is raped. He says this because he's serving a larger deception.

Now, your point falls down because if Tyrion's failing was that he couldn't help but antagonise Cersei; the best way to do that would be to tell her Alayaya isn't his whore, and tell her that for the threat of rape, he'd definitely rape Tommen. Basically, a "ha-ha I win, you lose", you're holding no cards, I'm holding them all, manouevre. THAT would be the ultimate method of antagonising Cersei. He doesn't do that, because his interest isn't in antagonising her, it's in misdirecting her.

He's trying to make her think she's won, and the best way to do that is to act irrationally in the moment, that he needs to play into her idea of him as a monster. There's nothing more devastating Tyrion could do to Cersei that tell her she actually has no leverage over him, but he doesn't since his aim isn't to devastate her.

[Darth Visenya]

Yes he was.

[femfatalatron]

Giving Joffrey the Antler Men was damage mitigation. It's clear that there's no way to change Joffrey's sadistic nature, and none of the Lannisters are ready to become a kin(g)slayer, so the only way to deal is to redirect his sadism where it will cause the least chaos. Handing him some known (or presumed) traitors keeps him occupied so he's less likely to kill or abuse people who are more useful, well-connected, or innocent (e.g. Sansa). Letting him play with the Antler Men was one of the least shitty options available.

And as a side-benefit, word maybe gets out about how the King deals with traitors and serves as a deterrent. It's not nice at all, but is reasonably clever and well-thought-out.

Tyrion wasn't a perfect Hand (he didn't antagonize Cersei as much as he could, but probably did more than was strictly necessary) but I thought he did well in a nearly impossible situation.

[Gannicus]

Tyrion was the best.

Cersei and Joffrey were driving the realm into the ground. Tyrion kept the ship afloat and ultimately kept the realm out of the hands of Stannis. He was sent to Kings Landing to rule and he did a remarkable job given the circumstances.

He needed to wrestle control away from Cersei because of her inept ruling prowess. I can't think of a single decision he made that was done without cause. He wanted to send Tommen and Myrcella away for several reasons. Their physical safety was in jeopardy, he wanted to spare good kids from the mental poison of Cersei, and of course he was hoping to secure alliances. He was brilliant.

If you look at the hand's position as serving as an extension of the King Tyrion failed. But Tywin sent him to KIngs Landing to rule.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Seriously. No wonder she is so paranoid. I thought a lot of his moves against Cercei is ACOK were ridiculous, especially the bs with Tommen. And guess what, she was right to be worried about sending Myrcella to Dorne... look how THAT turned out.

BS. Without sending Myrcella to Dorne, the Dornish would have sided with Stannis in a heartbeat. How was he to know that some fanboy/girl favorite named "darkstar" would decide to slash her face open? Marrying her off was probably the smartest thing a Lannister has done from the throne in any of the books.

[Larry of the Lawn]

He didn't tell her. She found out from Pycelle and confronted him.

Really his actions were downright petty at times-such as his keeping the chain a secret or consigning Pycelle to the Black Cells.

His keeping the chain a secret prevented Stannis from finding out about it. He had no idea whom he could trust or whom he couldn't. Why give away the one thing that's safeguarding your city?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Like the Queen Regent?

All he discovered about Pycelle was that he was working for Cerse and thus under Lannister influence. His father sent him to find out who on the Council was acting against their interest.

Cersei proved that she couldn't be trusted to work "in Lannister interest" that's why Tyrion was there. He never would have let Selmy go, or killed off Robert's bastards that didn't know they were bastards, or any of that shit. If she had been competent, he wouldn't have been there. Pycelle can't be trusted - he let Tywin into the city during Robert's rebellion. The funny thing is that Tywin probably would have done EXACTLY the same things that Tyrion did as hand, although neither of them would like to admit it. Tywin certainly wouldn't have put up with as much of Joff's shit as Cersei did. A psycho like that needs to be kept in check, and Cersei wouldn't, or couldn't, do it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

No, he doesn't. He's constantly needling her and trying to one-up her instead of trying to figure out which of the Councillors is working against them.

Instead he imprisons (and antagonises) the one member of the SC who was loyal to the Lannisters.

Pycelle was not loyal to the Lannisters. If he was, he never would have given Ned the book Jon Arryn was reading. He never would have put Cersei over Tyrion (Tywin). He would have recognized that the strength of the Lannister name rested in Joffrey being MARGINALIZED in his power, because he was crazy. He would have recognized that Cersei had no plan other than craving power, while Tyrion was actually trying to do his job. Look at the asses that Cersei put in power after Tyrion and Tywin were gone. How did that work out for her? Tyrion's only downfall? Having a sister that had hated him since birth.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Then Tyrion was a terrible hand, seeing as how he's supposed to serve the Regent.

Apologising for imprisoning the Grand Maestar when you yourself imprisoned him is not exactly laying on the olive branch.

And the bolded part-he did it for Shae.

You saying Tyrion was a bad hand is like saying Jaime was a bad Kingsguard. Yeah, Jaime killed the king, but he saved the city. Yeah, Tyrion didn't do what Cersei and Joffrey wanted, but they were psychos. Does that make him literally a bad hand? Maybe. But a good leader. He serves the king, who is best served by serving the realm. If he just did exactly what the regent or king wanted, why have a Hand at all?

[Larry of the Lawn]

And if someone tries to fault Tyrion for handing over the "Antler Men" what about Cersei handing her friends over to Qyburn to be human guniea pigs under the knife for his Frankenstein project.?

[jarl the climber]

I think Tyrion was a decent Hand who served a bad King and was not loved and even hated by the people of Kings Landing. The perception of his tenure is probaly pretty negative.