Maxpey Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I agree that the statements are linked by inference, but the inference need not necessarily be that Jon is truly a bastard. Ned may have been prompted to think of Jon, and then to think of bastards in general, because Jon is publicly a bastard. That is the status he holds, whether or not it is one he deserves. Ned's statements therefore do not definitively imply that he believes Jon to be a bastard.I can't say that your interpretation is unreasonable. I just feel that the way GRRM wrote the passage does not really leave it open to interpretation, but who am I to say what's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I feel that Ned has a statue of Lyanna in the crypts, because he hid something there for Jon. I also feel that Bran and Co. hiding in the crypts, because no one would think to look for them there, is another clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annko Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I read the books after watching season 1 of Game of Thrones and considered myself a fan of the series, but managed to miss all these clues you are mentioning and never came to the R+L=J idea. Shame on me! Start rereading all 5 books tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I read the books after watching season 1 of Game of Thrones and considered myself a fan of the series, but managed to miss all these clues you are mentioning and never came to the R+L=J idea. Shame on me! Start rereading all 5 books tomorrow!Don't beat yourself up too much. You're not the only one who missed it. I didn't know until I stumbled across it while reading the Game of Thrones message board at IMDB about 3 weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinPaperWings Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I'm convinced of R+L=J but I'm not convinced the couple were married. The fact that Robb married Jeyne Westerling out of honor suggests Ned thought the same way--if you sleep with a woman you should marry her. Since Ned considered Rhaegar to be honorable* I think it is therefore possible that they could have been married. But, that said, I certainly think the 'bastard' thought throws that into question--it is inconclusive for me either way.*re: the early Ned chapter in aGoT where Robert starts ranting, saying 'What do the Targaryens know of honor?' Ned only says something about the Trident, silently reminded of Lyanna's promise...I think Ned really wants to answer Robert's question by telling him how Rhaegar was honourable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annko Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Don't beat yourself up too much. You're not the only one who missed it. I didn't know until I stumbled across it while reading the Game of Thrones message board at IMDB about 3 weeks ago.Good to know I am not the only one :)Regarding the theory: but even being the son of R and L, Jon would still be a bastard (R is still married to Elia when he dies) and would have no claim on Iron Throne! Or am I missing something again?Because someone said here that Denny would step down and let him be a king, when it comes to it...not to forget about young Griff who has the best claim at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraithpk Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think it's very likely Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. First of all, it was very common for Targaryens to have 2 wives, so that part isn't a big deal. Also, they loved each other, so there would be no reason not to be married. Also, the Kingsguard would only be there if there was a member of the royal family to protect. A prince's lover is not royalty, nor is a bastard son. A princess and heir, however, would warrant protection from the Kingsguard. The ceremony could have been done relatively quietly, explaining how it's not common knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Good to know I am not the only one :)Regarding the theory: but even being the son of R and L, Jon would still be a bastard (R is still married to Elia when he dies) and would have no claim on Iron Throne! Or am I missing something again?Because someone said here that Denny would step down and let him be a king, when it comes to it...not to forget about young Griff who has the best claim at all...There is a widely accepted theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, as the Targaryens practiced polygamy. The accepted reason Rhaegar married Lyanna is that he believed that he needed to father another child in order to fulfill a prophecy, but his wife Elia could not have any more children.Thus Jon was not a bastard but the rightful heir to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraithpk Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Good to know I am not the only one :)Regarding the theory: but even being the son of R and L, Jon would still be a bastard (R is still married to Elia when he dies) and would have no claim on Iron Throne! Or am I missing something again?Because someone said here that Denny would step down and let him be a king, when it comes to it...not to forget about young Griff who has the best claim at all...Targaryen's often had two wives, so he might have married Lyanna, making Jon a legitimate son. And most people don't believe that Young Griff is really Aegon Targaryen, it looks more likely that he is a Blackfyre descendant who Illyrio and Varys are trying to put on the throne. Remember, Dany is given the image of the "mummer's dragon." This is strong evidence that Young Griff is a pretender with Illyrio and Varys pulling the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaz Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 there's a chance that they married "the wildling way", the kidnapping was part of the ritual. (As Ygritte tells Jon, they have to take a woman from another clan -to strenghten the blood- because intermarriage cause diseases) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraithpk Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 there's a chance that they married "the wildling way", the kidnapping was part of the ritual. (As Ygritte tells Jon, they have to take a woman from another clan -to strenghten the blood- because intermarriage cause diseases)Doubtful, I don't think either of them would have been familiar with wildling customs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annko Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 There is a widely accepted theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, as the Targaryens practiced polygamy. The accepted reason Rhaegar married Lyanna is that he believed that he needed to father another child in order to fulfill a prophecy, but his wife Elia could not have any more children.Thus Jon was not a bastard but the rightful heir to the throne.OK, it seems I missed this part as well in the books. :blushing:Well I read them in English and English is not my native language, so start rereading tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annko Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Targaryen's often had two wives, so he might have married Lyanna, making Jon a legitimate son. And most people don't believe that Young Griff is really Aegon Targaryen, it looks more likely that he is a Blackfyre descendant who Illyrio and Varys are trying to put on the throne. Remember, Dany is given the image of the "mummer's dragon." This is strong evidence that Young Griff is a pretender with Illyrio and Varys pulling the strings.How long ago Blackfyre fled Westeros? I mean would it be possible to keep the line so pure for this boy to have silver-blond hair and purple eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaz Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Doubtful, I don't think either of them would have been familiar with wildling customs.Everyone in the north would have been acquainted with the wildling customs, more than anyone the Starks, with the legend of Bael the bard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think regardless of whether Ned thought Jon was a bastard or not....the KG at the ToJ certainly thought there was a legitimate king there and died for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pollo Loco Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Everyone in the north would have been acquainted with the wildling customs, more than anyone the Starks, with the legend of Bael the bard.jon didn't, he told Yrgritte that she was lying/the story wasn't true when he first heard it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Everyone in the north would have been acquainted with the wildling customs, more than anyone the Starks, with the legend of Bael the bard.But the legend of Bael the Bard isn't known among the Starks. Or if it is, then no one bothered to tell Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaz Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 well Jon doesn't know, but he isn't the only Stark in the world. And how do you know what Lyanna knew or not? I don't, certainly; but I'm supposing as everyone here.If they (R and L) were so much into prophecy and bla, bla... It seems pretty understandable they look for a way to legitimize their union, and her ancient traditions provide a convenient way. Take the woman and if she agrees go to a weirwood and make your vows.That's all the legitimacy I need, that and the knowing that Targaryens took more than one wife and having a paramour is a custom of Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 But we know that Ned suppressed a number of stories in his household, namely Ashara Dayne, but also didn't tell his children much of the tourney in Harrenhal (or else Bran would ave known Jojen's and Meera's story in some way). The story of Bael the Bard, with its obvious parallels to R+L, couldn't be allowed in his household either. That doesn't mean he himself didn't know the story, or that it had been forgotten by Rickard Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Doubtful, I don't think either of them would have been familiar with wildling customs.All it takes would be a single Nightwatch ranger stopping a Winterfell on the way south and entertaining his host's family by a tale of wildling customs (though probably not the Bael story, since it would be offensive). Lyanna might have possessed the knowledge.Actually, I've been thinking along these lines for some time, since the supposed abduction at swordpoint really doesn't fit, and emulating the wildling custom could be a plausible alternate explanation (the other being Rhaegar protecting Lyanna's honour by placing the blame on himself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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