R+L=J v. 26

[Thendel]

The show has dropped clues that at least Ned is not the father. In the first season, Robert was down in the crypts looking at the statue of Lyanna and going on and on about how much he wanted to kill Rhaegar again and Ned kept silent. There was that scene where Jon asked about his mother and Ned said they'd talk about it when they next saw one another. Ned then had that conversation with Robert where Robert was asking him about Wylla. The most recent one was when Jaime was going on and on about how noble and honorable Ned was and yet he fathered a bastard. My sister, who is not the type to uncover mysteries and never notices any hints in books or shows (she doesn't even know the names of half the lead characters on the show), noticed this and phoned me exclaiming, "I just came up with the most awesome theory. Ned was not Jon Snow's father!"

*Twas excellent acting on Sean Bean's part. Moreover, there's his farewell to Jon: "...annd you are a Stark. You might not have my name, but you have my blood." Wonderfully ambiguous, given that it could easily be a way of saying that even though Jon is only Ned's nephew, he feels like a son to him. When Jon asks about his mother, Ned tears up, which would imply that he loved said woman. But given that we've established that Ned has a genuinely loving relationship with Catelyn, why does he get misty-eyed over some woman he was with seventeen years ago? Unless, of course, he loved the woman as a sister, and not a lover. All in all, I thinkt the clues are there for those who're looking for them, but almost everyone would probably miss these details when watching the show without knowing about R+L=J.

[sagaz]

How could anyone who's never read the books or these forums (or had someone else spoil it for them) conclude that R+L=J? The interview the other posts are referring to? I can't keep up with these boards, let alone other sites, so I'm curious.

IIRC they concluded Ned isn't the father (the honor thing, how Cat doesn't know, etc) and he never called Jon "son", but said "you're my blood". This, and they put toghether Robert tantrum in the crypts of winterfell and Ned elusive answers in the kingsroad. I'm not sure if they know about Raeghar, but they know about Lyanna.

have in mind that they squeeze every word and every reaction to make their "spitballs" and most of the time they're correct!

[Lady Octarina]

ok my bad, Rhaegar obviously wouldn't have seen his kid having gone to battle way before Lyanna went in labor. but i'm wondering if the hair color is also factor if he wanted to hide an heir in Jon by choosing the (dominantly) dark-haired Starks? it's a shallow reason but who knows it may have contributed in his choice of Starks/Lyanna along with the obvious mystical warging capabilities they had + the whole falling in love thing at Harrenhal. did he have reason to hide a third heir in the first place assuming things didn't get out of hand? the whole mess with Robert's Rebellion happened only after Brandon/Rickard died caused by him and Lyanna's disappearance.

anyhow it might have just been coincidence at this point re: hair color people just seem to make such a big fuss of it i'm starting to wonder if Rhaegar or Lyanna themselves had concerns with the color of their child's hair. obviously it's no biggie if circumstances were peaceful but it would be a huge concern if they were hiding him.

I don't think the hair color was a factor at all for him to choose Lyanna. From what we hear from Jaime about the changes Rhaegar meant to implement once he returned from the Trident, we can conclude he believed he would win that fight and the Targaryen dynasty would remain on the throne, so why would he need to hide his child with Lyanna? Especially considering he probably meant to dethrone Aerys, there would be no danger in letting people know they had a kid; not even from the Martells, since Aegon would be king after his father anyway. Of course, things didn't go as planned and it was incredibly lucky for Jon to be dark haired.

The hair-factor is only relevant for book readers who wish to dismiss R+L=J, but forget the amount of dark haired Targs before Jon.

[Joel M Bridge]

double post

[Joel M Bridge]

Biggest clue I thing is that Kingguard is protecting her chambers, they swore to protect, member of the royal family, special during time war they should been out with the prince, instead say behind, she must been member of royal family or about to give birth to one.

[sagaz]

Biggest clue I thing is that Kingguard is protecting her chambers, they swore to protect, member of the royal family, special during time war they should been out with the prince, instead say behind, she must been member of royal family or about to give birth to one.

and don't forget the statue in the crypts. According to Bran in aGoT, only the Lords of Winterfell or the Kings in the North (at some point, in the past, would have been the same thing) had statues. Why Ned did one of Lyanna if she wasn't "royal"? (Bran says because Ned love her so much, but that's an explanation for a kid)

[Tyryan Lannister]

and don't forget the statue in the crypts. According to Bran in aGoT, only the Lords of Winterfell or the Kings in the North (at some point, in the past, would have been the same thing) had statues. Why Ned did one of Lyanna if she wasn't "royal"? (Bran says because Ned love her so much, but that's an explanation for a kid)

There was also one for Brandon though as well, and there's no connection to him being royal at all.

[sagaz]

Brandon "was" the lord of Winterfell (for minutes)... In another version of this thread 23 or 24, I think, someone pointed that maybe Ned had the two built to not answer questions.

[Budj]

Good catch on Lyanna not supposed to have a tomb in the crypts and only a wishy-washy explanation given.

With all of the prophecy goals, etc, I can't help but wonder if Rhaegar was also looking to unite the North and South more strongly by producing off-spring with the North. Targ+Stark on Iron Throne = North backed Iron Throne.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Brandon "was" the lord of Winterfell (for minutes)... In another version of this thread 23 or 24, I think, someone pointed that maybe Ned had the two built to not answer questions.

I can never keep straight who died first, Rickard or Brandon. Possible that at the time they built their crypts, Ned wasn't sure either, so gave Brandon one — lord or not, he was the heir — along with Lyanna, who would have been a princess.

[Independent George]

I can never keep straight who died first, Rickard or Brandon. Possible that at the time they built their crypts, Ned wasn't sure either, so gave Brandon one — lord or not, he was the heir — along with Lyanna, who would have been a princess.

Brandon died first. He strangled himself trying to reach Rickard, who was roasted slowly and didn't die for several hours.

I think Brandon and Lyanna are there because Ned loved them and wanted them buried there, period. It wasn't law that said only the kings/lords of winter were buried there, only tradition. It's up to Ned's discretion whether to continue that tradition or not.

[Maxpey]

and don't forget the statue in the crypts. According to Bran in aGoT, only the Lords of Winterfell or the Kings in the North (at some point, in the past, would have been the same thing) had statues. Why Ned did one of Lyanna if she wasn't "royal"? (Bran says because Ned love her so much, but that's an explanation for a kid)

The one issue I have with the idea that Ned knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is that Ned seems to consider Jon Snow a bastard, as indicated by this passage on page 380:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frown so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

Thus, we have Ned riding on his horse in the rain just moments after he saw Barra, one of Robert's bastards. His thoughts turn to Jon Snow. His thoughts then turn to contemplating why bastards are shunned. He then proceeds to ask Littlefinger about Robert's other bastards.

If Ned considered Jon a bastard, which I believe to be the case based upon the above-referenced passage, then he did not believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. If they were not married, then she could not have been a princess deserving of burial in the crypts of Winterfell.

Now, one possible explanation is that for all intents and purposes, Ned saw Lyanna as Rhaegar's "true" princess, regardless of the fact that they were not married. As such, she deserved her place in the crypts of Winterfell.

[sagaz]

Brandon died first. He strangled himself trying to reach Rickard, who was roasted slowly and didn't die for several hours.

I think Brandon and Lyanna are there because Ned loved them and wanted them buried there, period. It wasn't law that said only the kings/lords of winter were buried there, only tradition. It's up to Ned's discretion whether to continue that tradition or not.

I found the paragraph, it's in the last Bran chapter of aGoT:

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

All Starks buried in Winterfell, yes. Statues, only Lords and Kings.

Lyanna had one because she was a princess and the mother of the heir, and Ned and his famous honor would follow that tradition. Brandon had one because only one for Lyanna would start a lot of gossip.

[Dragonfish]

If Ned considered Jon a bastard, which I believe to be the case based upon the above-referenced passage, then he did not believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

But Ned doesn't say Jon is a bastard in the above passage. At least, not explicitly. It's written in such a way as to make it seem like that's what he's saying, but a closer examination reveals that he's not. He simply starts thinking about Jon, which then prompts him to think about bastards in general. At no point does he actually think to himself that Jon is a bastard.

[Maxpey]

But Ned doesn't say Jon is a bastard in the above passage. At least, not explicitly. It's written in such a way as to make it seem like that's what he's saying, but a closer examination reveals that he's not. He simply starts thinking about Jon, which then prompts him to think about bastards in general. At no point does he actually think to himself that Jon is a bastard.

Of course Ned didn't think to himself "Jon Snow is a bastard." But the inference is clearly obvious. Remember the context. He didn't just randomly start thinking about Jon. Ned had just come from meeting Barra, one of Robert's bastards, in a brothel. This meeting greatly affected him. Just after he leaves the brothel, Ned starts thinking about who, of all people, the "bastard" Jon Snow. He then thinks to himself about how unfair it is that bastards are shunned. Because he is still thinking about bastards, he asks Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's other bastards.

So, we have Ned thinking about bastards both before and after the thought of Jon Snow just randomly pops into his head, but we are supposed to believe that Ned does not think of Jon Snow as a bastard?

[ThinPaperWings]

Of course Ned didn't think to himself "Jon Snow is a bastard." But the inference is clearly obvious. Remember the context. He didn't just randomly start thinking about Jon. Ned had just come from meeting Barra, one of Robert's bastards, in a brothel. This meeting greatly affected him. Just after he leaves the brothel, Ned starts thinking about who, of all people, the "bastard" Jon Snow. He then thinks to himself about how unfair it is that bastards are shunned. Because he is still thinking about bastards, he asks Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's other bastards.

Perhaps he is just lamenting the fact that bastards are shunned? Jon has to live his life under that shadow. This is all for his protection of course (assuming R+L) but it's painful for Ned.

[sagaz]

But Ned doesn't say Jon is a bastard in the above passage. At least, not explicitly. It's written in such a way as to make it seem like that's what he's saying, but a closer examination reveals that he's not. He simply starts thinking about Jon, which then prompts him to think about bastards in general. At no point does he actually think to himself that Jon is a bastard.

:agree:

Of course Ned didn't think to himself "Jon Snow is a bastard." But the inference is clearly obvious. Remember the context. He didn't just randomly start thinking about Jon. Ned had just come from meeting Barra, one of Robert's bastards, in a brothel. This meeting greatly affected him. Just after he leaves the brothel, Ned starts thinking about who, of all people, the "bastard" Jon Snow. He then thinks to himself about how unfair it is that bastards are shunned. Because he is still thinking about bastards, he asks Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's other bastards.

If the bastard's talk prompt Ned to think of Jon is because he gave the boy that life. Jon is "doomed" to have a bastard's life when he is the son of Rhaegar.

I found another interesting thing reading that Bran chapter:

"I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad." "And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube. "It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

It seems when Ned was dying he tought of Jon, his loose end.

@ThinPaperWings: crossed posts!

[Dragonfish]

So, we have Ned thinking about bastards both before and after the thought of Jon Snow just randomly pops into his head, but we are supposed to believe that Ned does not think of Jon Snow as a bastard?

I agree that the statements are linked by inference, but the inference need not necessarily be that Jon is truly a bastard. Ned may have been prompted to think of Jon, and then to think of bastards in general, because Jon is publicly a bastard. That is the status he holds, whether or not it is one he deserves. Ned's statements therefore do not definitively imply that he believes Jon to be a bastard.

ETA--I think sagaz phrased it best: Ned has doomed Jon to a bastard's life, and that is why he is prompted to think of him.

[Maxpey]

Perhaps he is just lamenting the fact that bastards are shunned? Jon has to live his life under that shadow. This is all for his protection of course (assuming R+L) but it's painful for Ned.

That's a fair interpretation. However, I can't ignore the fact that when Ned was thinking about bastards he sees Jon's face. I would think that if Ned knew that Jon truly wasn't a bastard then he would not make this connection.

[LadyMary]

I found the paragraph, it's in the last Bran chapter of aGoT:

All Starks buried in Winterfell, yes. Statues, only Lords and Kings.

Lyanna had one because she was a princess and the mother of the heir, and Ned and his famous honor would follow that tradition. Brandon had one because only one for Lyanna would start a lot of gossip.

Interesting that Bran got the story of Rickard's death wrong... "he was beheaded..." It sounds like he was told a sanitized version of the facts, because surely it would have to be nightmare fuel to imagine someone burning to death in their own armor especially for a small child.

I'm on the fence about whether i think Jon was a legitimate son of Rhaegar or a bastard, but I do think Ned believed Jon was a bastard based on his thoughts. It may be that Rhaegar left some provision for his child with Lyanna in his will in the event of his death and stated his intention to legitimize Jon upon deposing his father. If his friends/Kingsguard knew of his intentions, they would have had a reason or a personal vow to protect Jon as an intended heir of their crown prince and friend, in the absence of Aerys or Aegon in the line of succession. That might explain why Jon - technically a bastard Targaryen, was treated like a legitimate heir by Rhaegar's loyal friends, especially if they believed that Robert would have him killed.