From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa III

[Lummel]

Yes, Daily Mail is a British tabloid, with well, a slightly sensationalist social conservative bent (Lummel will again be proud of me for being so diplomatic!)

Yes, what's up with you? Is the garden doing well and Mr Stark treating you right? You're turning sweet for summer I can tell!

Also a question about the daily mail - is it something that really conservative, class conscious people would read?

Yes and no. It's hard to explain. Lummel can you think of a better way to describe it?

I'll try, not really conservative. The paper has an editorial policy of giving the reader somebody or somegroup to hate everyday, so every reader can get the opportunity to feel angry and superior to somebody on a daily basis. Tends to encourage some spiteful and narrow-minded attitudes as a result, normally described as common-sense. Typical stories have included the woman complaining that other women hate her because she is too good looking or articles complaining about how shocking the skimpy dresses of celebrities are while printing lots of pictures of them wearing the same.

Okay, before I go on-I would like to say that I don't like Sansa that much. This is because for me, she doesn't care about her family-she shows disdain for her family members, doesn't care about them, is willing to lie and potentially harm family members for someone who's not part of the family. It's the same reason why I don't like Tywin, Cersei, Walder Frey, and countless others...

Isn't it a tiny bit unfair to dislike someone for the way they were in the first book and to overlook what they become in the next books?

[facetree]

Isn't it a tiny bit unfair to dislike someone for the way they were in the first book and to overlook what they become in the next books?

Should have said didn't. I'm actually quite interested in her storyline now, which wasn't the case when I was reading AGOT.

Cersei gets blinded by her pride/arrogance and her lack of empathy, which prevents her from understaing people's motivations

I agree. Wasn't there a LF quote somewhere that even the smallest pawns have their own minds or something like that?

[1234567]

Should have said didn't. I'm actually quite interested in her storyline now, which wasn't the case when I was reading AGOT.

I think a lot of people initially don't like Sansa and some then begin to like her more in later books. Brashcandy and I did a re-read of all her chapters over the last few months, posting chapter summaries and analysis for discussion. They have some really intesting points in them and certainly cover some of your points in depth. However Brashcandy summed it up far better than me below:

Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:15 PM

Welcome! The purpose of this thread is to continue the analyses and discussions on Sansa's character arc, based on the insights that were gleaned through the FPTP Rereading Sansa threads over the space of about 4 months. We completed the last chapter in AFFC (see the reread forum for the last two threads), and this space is meant now to act as a repository for further explorations on what we've learnt from Sansa's journey and how we see her future arc developing.

Previous threads of 'From pawn to player rereading sansa': Thread i, Thread ii, Thread iii, Thread iv, Thread v, Thread vi

It's worth having a look at these threads as they also have a lot about foreshadowing and give an incite into what other people have taken different scenarios to mean.

I agree. Wasn't there a LF quote somewhere that even the smallest pawns have their own minds or something like that?

I often wondered if this was also LF slyly thinking back to Sansa's attempt to free herself from KL by engaging herself to Willas and dropping LF's plan. LF certainly is aware that she can deviate from plans if she has a better offer and this maybe part of why he is dangling Harry the Heir in front of her: LF is assuming that Sansa want's the handsome Knight, whereas Sansa has given up that dream a long time ago.

[Lyanna Stark]

No, no, no-I didn't mean to imply that Sansa swung the sword at Ned's neck or anything like that. But she did go to the wrong person to talk about her troubles, and while I don't think she's responsible, she's just not really understanding whom to trust. I don't think that's her fault, necessarily, but I do think that she needs to learn whom to trust and whom to not.

I think she learnt that well in Kings Landing, and the answer is very close to "nobody". (I think the one outlier here is Sandor Clegane, since I have a hard time seeing him ratting on her regardless of what she said. On the other hand, he didn't really have any power to wield in the political game, unlike Littlefinger, Cersei etc).

And about Tyrion and Dontos-I probably didn't phrase myself correctly, sorry, English isn't my first language :P uh... What I meant was that she could have shown a little more leniency in trusting-or not trusting-Tyrion and Dontos. But, it's understandable under the circumstances.

Why should she had trusted Tyrion? He was her captor and he married her against her will. Those are very serious things. A lot of people cut Tyrion a lot of slack because he is funny, he's witty and he's ever so hard done by for not being loved by a beautiful woman, but when he accepts Sansa when Tywin baits him...it really is one of his major points of self delusion.

Also, looking at the bigger picture and assuming then that the Lannisters would always be in power, it meant that Sansa would never be allowed to go North again. The north would never accept a Lannister lord in place of a Lord Stark so Tyrion would find divorce by axe in the north had he gone there with Sansa. Instead, she would have had to be kept in the South as a broodmare and only her son would eventually be allowed to venture north and take up the position as Lord Stark. It's even been theorised that to remove complications of people trying to off Tyrion and place Sansa as the Stark in Winterfell that once she had produced a couple of heirs, she would have an "accident".

If you look at the bigger picture here regarding Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, it's extremely bleak.

Now of course the Lannisters are loosing power, but as of early ASOS few people could have foreseen that, least of all Tyrion.

Dontos she trusted because she had no real choice, and once Littlefinger does his little speech, she is convinced Dontos was only in it for money, too, but this could also just be Littlefinger trying to smear him.

[facetree]

I think she learnt that well in Kings Landing, and the answer is very close to "nobody". (I think the one outlier here is Sandor Clegane, since I have a hard time seeing him ratting on her regardless of what she said. On the other hand, he didn't really have any power to wield in the political game, unlike Littlefinger, Cersei etc).

Why should she had trusted Tyrion?

Not trust, perhaps, and I agree with your points-but she could have acted slightly less cold. By no means do I mean like, smile and pretend to be happy and stuff like that, but at least be a bit coldly respectful-as what happened in her wedding scene, I think, when she ignored Tyrion who was trying to pull her down to kneel. There's a difference between being cold and being coldly respectful, and I think she develops towards the latter as the story progresses-she was just "cold" at first, and "dutiful" later. Which I think is an improvement-if she had just gone on with the cold, angry Sansa who showed her hatred for the Lannisters, she would have been beaten to death by Joffrey.

And thanks, Rapsie.

[Winter's Knight]

Not trust, perhaps, and I agree with your points-but she could have acted slightly less cold. By no means do I mean like, smile and pretend to be happy and stuff like that, but at least be a bit coldly respectful-as what happened in her wedding scene, I think, when she ignored Tyrion who was trying to pull her down to kneel. There's a difference between being cold and being coldly respectful, and I think she develops towards the latter as the story progresses-she was just "cold" at first, and "dutiful" later. Which I think is an improvement-if she had just gone on with the cold, angry Sansa who showed her hatred for the Lannisters, she would have been beaten to death by Joffrey.

And thanks, Rapsie.

He had some nerve expecting her to kneel for him.

[1234567]

Sansa not kneeling is an interesting debate as it is not just the act in and of itself. Kneeling symbolically represents your capitulation in Westerosi society. Sansa not kneeling was not a purposeful act to humiliate Tyrion (although he felt humiliated by it), but rather a defiant message that she was not kneeling to the Lannisters and accepting the awful situation she was put in without finding some way to make her feelings clear. As soon as she realised he had been hurt by her actions, she knelt for the kiss (although she did not kiss him, but he kissed her whilst she cried). Edit: If anything this scene drives home that they are not a team. I think it is the first sign, other than her crying throughout the ceremony, that Tyrion has that the day will not be as he had planned.

Personally I was of the opinion that her refusal to kneel would have been cheered if she had been forced to marry Lancel or Joff (and there was some reason she had to kneel), but because Tyrion is a fan favourite people are sympathetic to him. He is forcing a girl into marriage against her will and breaking up a marriage that she had already agreed to (and conicidentally would still have helped the Lannister / Tyrell alliance) for his own benefit. He may delude himself afterwards about the marriage, but when it is discussed in his chapters, it is clear that he wants Winterfell and the pretty girl despite the fact that it will mean her brother must be dispossed of and that he will be breaking his vow to exchange her for Jaime and to send her home.

Indeed the only person's feelings that tyrion is concerned with are his own and Shae's and then gets upset when Shae is not as upset as he hoped she'd be.

Now I can't find the reference anywhere (I think it is in one of the David Starkey books) but I seem to remember that Mary the 1 (Bloody Mary) did force Elizabeth I to go to mass on one occasion. Elizabeth did it, but loudly groaned and fained illness throughout the mass: like Sansa she had done as she was comanded, but made it clear that she was not submitting. Personally I see a lot of comparisons between Sansa's character and Elizabeth I.

[Devaki Khanna]

Sansa has a sense of her own worth. While it maybe a little bigheaded in AGOT, she is aware of who she is and what she is to expect in life. This is portrayed as a negative in comparison to Arya who seems completely unaware of what lies in her future (and how privileged she actually is) and instead likes to get to know everyone around her. Compare the view of Sansa in regards to Jon as to the conversations with Jon and Tyrion. Tyrion also feels sorry for Jon because he is a bastard and will not have the acceptance in life that his half-siblings do. No one has a problem with how Tyrion speaks to Jon however because Tyrion is portrayed as trying to give him tough life lessons and because he himself is partly an outcast through no fault of his own. So despite Tyrion's own views in terms of his self worth and entitlement being quite extreme, we are led to feel sorry for him, whilst at the same time made to think of Sansa as being bitchy.

Ironically Sansa and Jon are quite similar in their observations about Jon's bastard status. Jon assumes his brother will become banner men and that he will not: who would he have got this impression from if not from Ned and the people of Winterfell. Arya's views are sweet and fair and modern: which although appealing to the modern reader, is not in keeping with the world setting. I cannot find fault with Sansa accepting the social mores of her world at the age of 11. In many ways in AGOT, despite her romantic view on the world, Sansa is more of a realist about society (not about people's motivations and morality) than Arya, and yet it is Arya that is portrayed as the sympathetic one. As the saying goes, not everyone grows up to be an Astronaut. They maybe unfair, but socially different backgrounds will hamper what people can do in their lives. It may not be right, but to not acknowledge it is sweeping the problem under the carpet. Sansa's character is lambasted in fandom for not having these very modern views that Arya has and I agree that the author does not do a very good job of establishing a realistic expectation of fandom within the world setting he has created in regards to women in particular.

Which is annoying because if Arya had actually been made more aware of her social status and how playing with Mycah at swords was eventually going to lead to trouble (if Mycah had ever knocked her out or hurt her, the situation would not have gone well for him or his family.) The point is Sansa is aware that her position entails duty and Arya does not seem to be aware of this (which seems to me to be the fault of Ned for over indulging her).

I think it has already been noted else where by yourself and others that while Arya, Asha, Brienne etc do seem to stand out as women who deviate from the patriarchal system, every single one of them actually only act in the way they do with the consent of their fathers. They do not actually go against the wishes of their direct male authority figures, unlike Sansa, Cersei, Cat etc. The only female we see doing this is Alys Karstark and even then those she stands up against are portrayed as villains/ usurpers. We do see Asha reject one male, but he is portrayed as weak and unmanly, so it is alright for her to reject him.

Male views are often portrayed as just realistic instead of elitist.

Victim blaming seems to be in vogue at times in regards to Sansa. Maybe it is an innate fear of being helpless and an unconscious belief that were we placed in a similar situation we would somehow be able to get out of it: the idea that you have no ready means of escape and have to keep your own feelings internalized and become a victim and not be the strong person you imagine yourself to be is a tough one to mentally process.

I'd add Bella Rokesmith, Gwendolin Harleth and a host of other women from fairytales and 19th century literature to that trope. The idea that women should be grateful for what they get and not to have expectations of their own is still deeply ingrained in society.

I don't know why, but LF sometimes reminds me of Willy Wonka from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory....a bizarre and disturbing character whose mind should remain shut away....although an epilogue or prologue chapter would not go amiss.

I think you are right about LF gauging Sansa's intellect but not her emotions. I think her wrote off her desire to marry Willas as assuming Sansa was thinking of Willas as being like Loras and having Highgarden. He still sees her as the girl who likes handsome men. Dare I say it, but I think this maybe where Sansa's secret friendship (or whatever it was: association?) with Sandor will come into play in their dynamic: LF is not aware of the other side of Sansa and has misread her character. He thinks he is teaching her as a new pupil, but she has already learnt a lot about masking her true self from her experiences in KL. LF also has a vast amount of hubris at the moment and is also no longer a player in the shadows but as Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord of Harrenhal a player in the open: the methods he has relied on for concealment may not serve him as well as they have done before.

I think you're very right about Sansa's attitude vis-a-vis her social position--she is aware of her rights and duties. Note how she USES her betrothal to Joffrey to secure some kind of relief for her father when he is imprisoned. Yes, she is still deluded about the kind of boy Joffrey is--but this is a girl untutored in the methods of courtly manipulation--and yet she gives it her best shot. She LETS Cersei dictate letters to her--this is the only means she has of letting her family know that she is a prisoner. Cat, I think, is the only one who understands what is going on--Robb is like, "Why doesn't she say something about Arya?"

And you are correct about Asha, Brienne and Arya--they operate in the male sphere with the permission/support of their fathers and liege lords--Renly's support for Brienne, his decision to include her in his Rainbow Guard, is crucial for her sense of self-worth. Sansa MIGHT love her songs and stories and chivalrous knights, but when push comes to shove, she is a lot more realistic as compared to Arya and Tyrion. Tyrion, like Arya, gets married to a commoner, Tysha, whom his father gets his men to rape. Compare with the Arya-Mycah episode.

Yes, Ned should have sat the girls down before they left Winterfell and told them what sort of behaviour would be expected of them. Or he should have left them in Winterfell with Cat--Bran's fall was a very good excuse to leave the girls behind to help their mother. It would also have given Cat an excuse to visit King's Landing via White Harbour, bringing her girls with her, if she still wanted to send them to court after the assasin attacked Bran.

[Devaki Khanna]

Sansa has a sense of her own worth. While it maybe a little bigheaded in AGOT, she is aware of who she is and what she is to expect in life. This is portrayed as a negative in comparison to Arya who seems completely unaware of what lies in her future (and how privileged she actually is) and instead likes to get to know everyone around her. Compare the view of Sansa in regards to Jon as to the conversations with Jon and Tyrion. Tyrion also feels sorry for Jon because he is a bastard and will not have the acceptance in life that his half-siblings do. No one has a problem with how Tyrion speaks to Jon however because Tyrion is portrayed as trying to give him tough life lessons and because he himself is partly an outcast through no fault of his own. So despite Tyrion's own views in terms of his self worth and entitlement being quite extreme, we are led to feel sorry for him, whilst at the same time made to think of Sansa as being bitchy.

Ironically Sansa and Jon are quite similar in their observations about Jon's bastard status. Jon assumes his brother will become banner men and that he will not: who would he have got this impression from if not from Ned and the people of Winterfell. Arya's views are sweet and fair and modern: which although appealing to the modern reader, is not in keeping with the world setting. I cannot find fault with Sansa accepting the social mores of her world at the age of 11. In many ways in AGOT, despite her romantic view on the world, Sansa is more of a realist about society (not about people's motivations and morality) than Arya, and yet it is Arya that is portrayed as the sympathetic one. As the saying goes, not everyone grows up to be an Astronaut. They maybe unfair, but socially different backgrounds will hamper what people can do in their lives. It may not be right, but to not acknowledge it is sweeping the problem under the carpet. Sansa's character is lambasted in fandom for not having these very modern views that Arya has and I agree that the author does not do a very good job of establishing a realistic expectation of fandom within the world setting he has created in regards to women in particular.

Which is annoying because if Arya had actually been made more aware of her social status and how playing with Mycah at swords was eventually going to lead to trouble (if Mycah had ever knocked her out or hurt her, the situation would not have gone well for him or his family.) The point is Sansa is aware that her position entails duty and Arya does not seem to be aware of this (which seems to me to be the fault of Ned for over indulging her).

I think it has already been noted else where by yourself and others that while Arya, Asha, Brienne etc do seem to stand out as women who deviate from the patriarchal system, every single one of them actually only act in the way they do with the consent of their fathers. They do not actually go against the wishes of their direct male authority figures, unlike Sansa, Cersei, Cat etc. The only female we see doing this is Alys Karstark and even then those she stands up against are portrayed as villains/ usurpers. We do see Asha reject one male, but he is portrayed as weak and unmanly, so it is alright for her to reject him.

Male views are often portrayed as just realistic instead of elitist.

Victim blaming seems to be in vogue at times in regards to Sansa. Maybe it is an innate fear of being helpless and an unconscious belief that were we placed in a similar situation we would somehow be able to get out of it: the idea that you have no ready means of escape and have to keep your own feelings internalized and become a victim and not be the strong person you imagine yourself to be is a tough one to mentally process.

I'd add Bella Rokesmith, Gwendolin Harleth and a host of other women from fairytales and 19th century literature to that trope. The idea that women should be grateful for what they get and not to have expectations of their own is still deeply ingrained in society.

I don't know why, but LF sometimes reminds me of Willy Wonka from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory....a bizarre and disturbing character whose mind should remain shut away....although an epilogue or prologue chapter would not go amiss.

I think you are right about LF gauging Sansa's intellect but not her emotions. I think her wrote off her desire to marry Willas as assuming Sansa was thinking of Willas as being like Loras and having Highgarden. He still sees her as the girl who likes handsome men. Dare I say it, but I think this maybe where Sansa's secret friendship (or whatever it was: association?) with Sandor will come into play in their dynamic: LF is not aware of the other side of Sansa and has misread her character. He thinks he is teaching her as a new pupil, but she has already learnt a lot about masking her true self from her experiences in KL. LF also has a vast amount of hubris at the moment and is also no longer a player in the shadows but as Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord of Harrenhal a player in the open: the methods he has relied on for concealment may not serve him as well as they have done before.

I think you're very right about Sansa's attitude vis-a-vis her social position--she is aware of her rights and duties. Note how she USES her betrothal to Joffrey to secure some kind of relief for her father when he is imprisoned. Yes, she is still deluded about the kind of boy Joffrey is--but this is a girl untutored in the methods of courtly manipulation--and yet she gives it her best shot. She LETS Cersei dictate letters to her--this is the only means she has of letting her family know that she is a prisoner. Cat, I think, is the only one who understands what is going on--Robb is like, "Why doesn't she say something about Arya?"

And you are correct about Asha, Brienne and Arya--they operate in the male sphere with the permission/support of their fathers and liege lords--Renly's support for Brienne, his decision to include her in his Rainbow Guard, is crucial for her sense of self-worth. Sansa MIGHT love her songs and stories and chivalrous knights, but when push comes to shove, she is a lot more realistic as compared to Arya and Tyrion. Tyrion, like Arya, gets married to a commoner, Tysha, whom his father gets his men to rape. Compare with the Arya-Mycah episode.

Yes, Ned should have sat the girls down before they left Winterfell and told them what sort of behaviour would be expected of them. Or he should have left them in Winterfell with Cat--Bran's fall was a very good excuse to leave the girls behind to help their mother. It would also have given Cat an excuse to visit King's Landing via White Harbour, bringing her girls with her, if she still wanted to send them to court after the assasin attacked Bran.

[Grail King]

<snip>

Yet, there are numerous instances of GRRM portraying people like Tyrion as victims of the foolish, vicious smallfolk and their ingratitude. Honestly, it seems he holds Sansa up to a higher moral standard then he does with Tyrion, Jaime, and yes, even Ned (who, if you pay close attention to his chapters, is actually one of the bigger snobs in the books; massively out of touch with the smallfolk.)

<snip>

I disagree here, first off, in more than 15 years as head Lord of the North he and his house are highly regarded and looked up to, he holds table with each banner men making sure they are in turn providing not only for the North as a whole but also the people they are sworn to protect .

When he gets to KL this follows him, small folks come to press for help he sends Dondarrion to bring in Gregor, and sends a raven to Lord Lannister commanding him to appear in KL because of the crimes committed by his men.

Neds problem was that the south doesn't play by the rules he's used to, he's also hemmed in by all the back stabbing and treachery that he wasn't fully aware of till it was too late.

We could say his honor got in the way of what may have been right for the realm as a whole but looking down on the little people isn't one of them.

The other problem he had was not understanding Sansa's growth into woman hood ( I think most dads fear this ) and not stepping up to it with Cat in Winterfell, if he just took the same 3 minutes with her as he did Arya many of the things that befell on his house could have been avoided.

[Grail King]

Sansa not kneeling is an interesting debate as it is not just the act in and of itself. Kneeling symbolically represents your capitulation in Westerosi society. Sansa not kneeling was not a purposeful act to humiliate Tyrion (although he felt humiliated by it), but rather a defiant message that she was not kneeling to the Lannisters and accepting the awful situation she was put in without finding some way to make her feelings clear. As soon as she realised he had been hurt by her actions, she knelt for the kiss (although she did not kiss him, but he kissed her whilst she cried). Edit: If anything this scene drives home that they are not a team. I think it is the first sign, other than her crying throughout the ceremony, that Tyrion has that the day will not be as he had planned.

Personally I was of the opinion that her refusal to kneel would have been cheered if she had been forced to marry Lancel or Joff (and there was some reason she had to kneel), but because Tyrion is a fan favourite people are sympathetic to him. He is forcing a girl into marriage against her will and breaking up a marriage that she had already agreed to (and conicidentally would still have helped the Lannister / Tyrell alliance) for his own benefit. He may delude himself afterwards about the marriage, but when it is discussed in his chapters, it is clear that he wants Winterfell and the pretty girl despite the fact that it will mean her brother must be dispossed of and that he will be breaking his vow to exchange her for Jaime and to send her home.

Indeed the only person's feelings that tyrion is concerned with are his own and Shae's and then gets upset when Shae is not as upset as he hoped she'd be.

Now I can't find the reference anywhere (I think it is in one of the David Starkey books) but I seem to remember that Mary the 1 (Bloody Mary) did force Elizabeth I to go to mass on one occasion. Elizabeth did it, but loudly groaned and fained illness throughout the mass: like Sansa she had done as she was comanded, but made it clear that she was not submitting. Personally I see a lot of comparisons between Sansa's character and Elizabeth I.

Also just to add, a lot of those at the sham wedding knew it was forced but could do nothing about it, Tyrion on one hand felt insulted yet on the other knows it was more against his house as a whole while still being blind by him wanting a pretty bird, the North and Shae all at the same time.

[brashcandy]

I think you're very right about Sansa's attitude vis-a-vis her social position--she is aware of her rights and duties. Note how she USES her betrothal to Joffrey to secure some kind of relief for her father when he is imprisoned. Yes, she is still deluded about the kind of boy Joffrey is--but this is a girl untutored in the methods of courtly manipulation--and yet she gives it her best shot. She LETS Cersei dictate letters to her--this is the only means she has of letting her family know that she is a prisoner. Cat, I think, is the only one who understands what is going on--Robb is like, "Why doesn't she say something about Arya?"

Good point about how she utilizes her social standing and the betrothal to get Joff to spare Ned's life. I'm also puzzled about the lack of reader recognition for this action, and the way, even back then, she was willing to enter this hostile court environment and plead for the father's life in the face of the cold, judgemental nobles, nearly all of whom had already deserted him. There's always such swift condemnation of her going to Cersei and little to no appreciation of the honour and dignity she bestows upon House Stark in this scene. And the way she frames her question, appealing to the love Joff had for her, and making sure to focus only on him, illustrates an early grasp of subtle manipulative techniques. She's also smart enough to know that pleading for her father to escape total punishment will be useless. Of course, Sansa is being genuinely earnest here. She does believe that Joff loves her, and will not naturally wish to cause her pain, however, there's still a conscious awareness on her part of how she must behave, and how she must deliver her appeal to achieve success. Her affiliation with the upper class/courtly domains of her society has never merely been about decoration. Outside of her excessive idealising of knighthood, she's always had an understanding of how to manoeuvre and negotiate in that world.

[Elba the Intoner]

I think she learnt that well in Kings Landing, and the answer is very close to "nobody". (I think the one outlier here is Sandor Clegane, since I have a hard time seeing him ratting on her regardless of what she said. On the other hand, he didn't really have any power to wield in the political game, unlike Littlefinger, Cersei etc).

Why should she had trusted Tyrion? He was her captor and he married her against her will. Those are very serious things. A lot of people cut Tyrion a lot of slack because he is funny, he's witty and he's ever so hard done by for not being loved by a beautiful woman, but when he accepts Sansa when Tywin baits him...it really is one of his major points of self delusion.

<snip>

Dontos she trusted because she had no real choice, and once Littlefinger does his little speech, she is convinced Dontos was only in it for money, too, but this could also just be Littlefinger trying to smear him.

Sansa not kneeling is an interesting debate as it is not just the act in and of itself. Kneeling symbolically represents your capitulation in Westerosi society. Sansa not kneeling was not a purposeful act to humiliate Tyrion (although he felt humiliated by it), but rather a defiant message that she was not kneeling to the Lannisters and accepting the awful situation she was put in without finding some way to make her feelings clear. As soon as she realised he had been hurt by her actions, she knelt for the kiss (although she did not kiss him, but he kissed her whilst she cried). Edit: If anything this scene drives home that they are not a team. I think it is the first sign, other than her crying throughout the ceremony, that Tyrion has that the day will not be as he had planned.

Personally I was of the opinion that her refusal to kneel would have been cheered if she had been forced to marry Lancel or Joff (and there was some reason she had to kneel), but because Tyrion is a fan favourite people are sympathetic to him. He is forcing a girl into marriage against her will and breaking up a marriage that she had already agreed to (and conicidentally would still have helped the Lannister / Tyrell alliance) for his own benefit. He may delude himself afterwards about the marriage, but when it is discussed in his chapters, it is clear that he wants Winterfell and the pretty girl despite the fact that it will mean her brother must be dispossed of and that he will be breaking his vow to exchange her for Jaime and to send her home.

Indeed the only person's feelings that tyrion is concerned with are his own and Shae's and then gets upset when Shae is not as upset as he hoped she'd be.

Now I can't find the reference anywhere (I think it is in one of the David Starkey books) but I seem to remember that Mary the 1 (Bloody Mary) did force Elizabeth I to go to mass on one occasion. Elizabeth did it, but loudly groaned and fained illness throughout the mass: like Sansa she had done as she was comanded, but made it clear that she was not submitting. Personally I see a lot of comparisons between Sansa's character and Elizabeth I.

I agree with all this about Sansa not kneeling for Tyrion but unfortunately that it is one of the biggest sources of Sansa hate and misunderstanding about her character. What's most frustrating about it though, is that it is Tyrion who consistently throughout his POV's has wanted a beautiful woman to love him and nobody calls him out on it. (That's why I bolded those sentences above). But with Sansa she gets an immense amount of hate over this and is completely misunderstood as still, even after how she has developed after four books, wanting a handsome prince.

There was a thread recently, within the last month I think, called "Sansa's virginity" IIRC and I happened to check it out. I'm not sure what I thought I would see with a title like that but there was a huge amount of Sansa scorn based on the belief that Sansa is so shallow and had she married Jaime instead of Tyrion she'd be okay with it because he's so handsome and all she cares about is marrying a handsome prince???!!!

What? What, what, what??? I wanted to scream (though ultimately I decided to just leave the thread before posting anything and not engage in the ridiculousness of it). First of all, this just ignores her whole development over the last four books, especially the part about how she has come to hate all Lannisters, as evidenced by her dreams of having kids and teaching them to hate Lannisters. Furthermore, if she cared so much about looks at the time she was married to Tyrion, then she would have accepted Tyrion's offer to marry Lancel instead as he was handsome and a lot closer to her age (though after his injury and recovery from the BBB not as much). It's because at that point all Lannisters are the same to her and it doesn't matter what they look like. Another big clue - she was willing to give Wyllas a try and even make it work without knowing what he looked like but knowing that he was physically handicapped.

But most importantly, even in A Game of Thrones, before she has gone through any major character development, Jaime is the first Lannister she comes to hate. After Jaime has Jory killed and Ned's leg is severely injured, we read how, "Sansa was certain that her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer." So she already hates handsome golden boy Jaime.

And I noticed something else very recently too. Early in AGOT, Sansa did choose an "ugly" man over Jaime. The second day of the Hand's Tourney, Jaime competes in a joust with the Hound. This is the day after the Hound told Sansa the story of how he got burned. The Hound wins the joust after knocking Jaime off his horse and Sansa says, ""I knew the Hound would win.'" :drunk: So, NO people! Sansa was never so shallow that she only cared about how handsome a man is and would have taken Jaime or any handsome man over Tyrion!!

Phew! Sorry if this is a little off topic and long. I guess I did feel the need to rant about this after all.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I think she learnt that well in Kings Landing, and the answer is very close to "nobody". (I think the one outlier here is Sandor Clegane, since I have a hard time seeing him ratting on her regardless of what she said. On the other hand, he didn't really have any power to wield in the political game, unlike Littlefinger, Cersei etc).

Why should she had trusted Tyrion? He was her captor and he married her against her will. Those are very serious things. A lot of people cut Tyrion a lot of slack because he is funny, he's witty and he's ever so hard done by for not being loved by a beautiful woman, but when he accepts Sansa when Tywin baits him...it really is one of his major points of self delusion.

Also, looking at the bigger picture and assuming then that the Lannisters would always be in power, it meant that Sansa would never be allowed to go North again. The north would never accept a Lannister lord in place of a Lord Stark so Tyrion would find divorce by axe in the north had he gone there with Sansa. Instead, she would have had to be kept in the South as a broodmare and only her son would eventually be allowed to venture north and take up the position as Lord Stark. It's even been theorised that to remove complications of people trying to off Tyrion and place Sansa as the Stark in Winterfell that once she had produced a couple of heirs, she would have an "accident".

If you look at the bigger picture here regarding Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, it's extremely bleak.

Now of course the Lannisters are loosing power, but as of early ASOS few people could have foreseen that, least of all Tyrion.

Dontos she trusted because she had no real choice, and once Littlefinger does his little speech, she is convinced Dontos was only in it for money, too, but this could also just be Littlefinger trying to smear him.

I don't know why you say that about Tyrion. Do you really think he could have refused Tywin? Tyrion was forced into the marriage just as much as Sansa was, and I wouldn't call it self delusion, if anything it hurt him immensly. Even his wife looks upon him like a monster and says "What if I never love you"

And why should Sansa never go North? Tyrion invited her to go west, so they were not prisoners. And do you really think Tyrion would kill his wife when his child was born? He would never do that.

I think she did love Dontos though, how could she not? He stood up for her agains Joff, he flirted and promised to keep her safe in the godswood, he claimed that they were characters in a magical song! When LF killed him and told Sansa why she probobly thought of Cersei's advice "love is poison". I feel like Donto's death is the main reason why she feels like she's immune to love, not Joff or Tyrion (though they healped)

So I got questions!

1. When she married Tyrion he was standing on Dontos the fool, does that symbolize anything?

2. What's with the broken fruit? I feel all 4 books included this scene, though I can't remember it in acok or asos

[David Selig]

I don't know why you say that about Tyrion. Do you really think he could have refused Tywin? Tyrion was forced into the marriage just as much as Sansa was

“If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins,” said his father.

Tyrion chose to marry Sansa, nobody forced him into it, that's more than clear

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Tyrion chose to marry Sansa, nobody forced him into it, that's more than clear

Tyrion accepted because when Tywin says jump you say how high. He was not comfortable with it

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweetsmelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

Tyrion had to get married whether it's Sansa or someone else

"When I offered you to Dorne I was told that the suggestion was an insult," Lord Tywin continued. "In later years I had similar answers from Yohn Royce and Leyton Hightower. I finally stooped so low as to suggest you might take the Florent girl Robert deflowered in his brother's wedding bed, but her father preerred to give her to one of his own household knights.

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys...."

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats"

They were both going to get married, Tyrion might as well go for the good looking one and mayhaps Tyrion knows that Lancel, the Wineskin warrior who encouraged King Joffrey to get the royal Kingsguard to beat Sansa for her brother's skinchanging treason, would be a bad husband?

[Lady Kraken]

Tyrion accepted because when Tywin says jump you say how high.

Jaime has defied him a couple of times and lived to tell the tale.

[brashcandy]

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin - it's a textual fact that Tyrion chose to marry Sansa, and made the decision with little regard to Lancel or any other more appropriate suitor for her. Now, I'm not sure that this thread will be able to facilitate your unique kind of reasoning and your investment in wild theories concerning Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship. Perhaps it's time for another Mrs. Lannister thread?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Jaime has defied him a couple of times and lived to tell the tale.

Beause he hid in his white cloak behind the Mad King.

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin - it's a textual fact that Tyrion chose to marry Sansa, and made the decision with little regard to Lancel or any other more appropriate suitor for her. Now, I'm not sure that this thread will be able to facilitate your unique kind of reasoning and your investment in wild theories concerning Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship. Perhaps it's time for another Mrs. Lannister thread?

I say that Tyrion did not want to marry Sansa and would never kill his wife and you say "unique kind of reasoning and your investment in wild theories concerning Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship" LOL!!! Better then Ndrewisms.

I'd love another Mrs. Sansa Lannister thread (it's my 2nd fav thread on these fourms). I do like the contrast of Tyrion the unloved wants to be loved and his wife the cute Tully want's to die alone. If you don't open it up now I'll do it like half an hour

I do like this thread alot though, you'll have to try harder to kick me out :P

[brashcandy]

:) Me open it? And steal all your thunder? Never, Monsieur Grumkin!