From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa III

[Lady Kraken]

Beause he hid in his white cloak behind the Mad King.

I was actually thinking about when Jaime returns to King's Landing, and Tywin wants him to give up his cloak and become the heir to Casterly Rock, and Jaime says no.

[1234567]

Indeed Tyrion had no problem defying his father regarding Shae. Tyrion could have got out of it: his father was prepared to go to war for him when Cat took him prisoner and Tywin was going to let him take the black after the Joff fiasco. Tywin was hardly going to kill or imprison him for not marrying Sansa.

Besides Tywin didn't have to twist Tyrion's arm as Tyrion was quite enthralled with the idea of being Lord of Winterfell and having a pretty wife.

[Winter's Knight]

Indeed Tyrion had no problem defying his father regarding Shae. Tyrion could have got out of it: his father was prepared to go to war for him when Cat took him prisoner and Tywin was going to let him take the black after the Joff fiasco. Tywin was hardly going to kill or imprison him for not marrying Sansa.

Besides Tywin didn't have to twist Tyrion's arm as Tyrion was quite enthralled with the idea of being Lord of Winterfell and having a pretty wife.

And besides, if he refused the worst that would happen was that he'd be wed to some other girl from a lower noble family.

[bloodymime]

Sansa not kneeling is an interesting debate as it is not just the act in and of itself. Kneeling symbolically represents your capitulation in Westerosi society. Sansa not kneeling was not a purposeful act to humiliate Tyrion (although he felt humiliated by it), but rather a defiant message that she was not kneeling to the Lannisters and accepting the awful situation she was put in without finding some way to make her feelings clear. As soon as she realised he had been hurt by her actions, she knelt for the kiss (although she did not kiss him, but he kissed her whilst she cried). Edit: If anything this scene drives home that they are not a team. I think it is the first sign, other than her crying throughout the ceremony, that Tyrion has that the day will not be as he had planned.

Personally I was of the opinion that her refusal to kneel would have been cheered if she had been forced to marry Lancel or Joff (and there was some reason she had to kneel), but because Tyrion is a fan favourite people are sympathetic to him. He is forcing a girl into marriage against her will and breaking up a marriage that she had already agreed to (and conicidentally would still have helped the Lannister / Tyrell alliance) for his own benefit. He may delude himself afterwards about the marriage, but when it is discussed in his chapters, it is clear that he wants Winterfell and the pretty girl despite the fact that it will mean her brother must be dispossed of and that he will be breaking his vow to exchange her for Jaime and to send her home.

Indeed the only person's feelings that tyrion is concerned with are his own and Shae's and then gets upset when Shae is not as upset as he hoped she'd be.

Now I can't find the reference anywhere (I think it is in one of the David Starkey books) but I seem to remember that Mary the 1 (Bloody Mary) did force Elizabeth I to go to mass on one occasion. Elizabeth did it, but loudly groaned and fained illness throughout the mass: like Sansa she had done as she was comanded, but made it clear that she was not submitting. Personally I see a lot of comparisons between Sansa's character and Elizabeth I.

Great post and you spelled it out completely why it's one of my favorite moments of Sansa in the books. Will always cheer for the Starks refusing to kneel to the Lannisters.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I was actually thinking about when Jaime returns to King's Landing, and Tywin wants him to give up his cloak and become the heir to Casterly Rock, and Jaime says no.

Oh, you said "Jaime has defied him a couple of times and lived to tell the tale." So I assumed you meant A couple of times :P . But, yes he did refuse Tywin in this matter, just like Tyrion refused Tywin's order to go back to his cell.

However when Tywin talks about marriage, even Cersei Lannister tries to look pretty for the Red Viper

Indeed Tyrion had no problem defying his father regarding Shae. Tyrion could have got out of it: his father was prepared to go to war for him when Cat took him prisoner and Tywin was going to let him take the black after the Joff fiasco. Tywin was hardly going to kill or imprison him for not marrying Sansa.

Tywin went to war over Lannister honor, not his love for Tyrion. He did want his son to take the black, but he also wanted Tyrion to fight in the vanguard. Anyways he didn't say don't touch Shae. He said don't bring the whore to court. Despite HBO's episode 9, Shae has never set foot in court.

Besides Tywin didn't have to twist Tyrion's arm as Tyrion was quite enthralled with the idea of being Lord of Winterfell and having a pretty wife.

Was he?

"I belive I am," he said, bristling. "I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seed just as oftedn as I can..."

"In the gutters and the ditches," finished Lord Tywin, "and in common ground where only bastard weeds take roo. It is past time you kept you own garden." He rose to his feet. "You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell."

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill

[Lummel]

The offer is made in Tyrion III ASOS and it's clear that Tyrion could have refused, the offer is couched in terms of Tywin acknowledging that Tyrion's, er, sexual habits are the result of Tywin not having treated him as a man by marring him off earlier:

'"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"'

of course Tywin being Tywin it emerges that this is a hard offer to say no to as he runs through all the noble houses who have rejected a marriage with Tyrion, Tully, Dorne, Royce, Hightower & Florant but:

'"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys..."

Tyrion is nudged (in the parlance of our times) into marrying Sansa Stark but the option to say no is there. I'm sure there were Lannister cousins other than Lancel who would have been brought into to do their duty if required.

[total1402]

My impression is that Sansa's nievity is just an extension of the author criticsing the nievity of honourable characters like Ned Stark and didn't think of any greater thing other than that. By and large Sansa is a victim who I felt sorry for. I don't really see how she 'reaps what she has sown', if anything shes innocent of just about everything and only suffers as a female hostage would during the middle ages.

I imagine that dynamic will change sooner or later. I think she might develop a motherly attachment to Jon Arryn and manage to nurse him to health. Littlefinger then tries to poison the kid and Sansa steals him away to the Lords of the Vale. This is because she knows that without his hostage Baelish has nothing and revealing herself as a Stark. A bit like a cut out the middle man. Or she could manipulate Baelish affection for her; which I think is genuine, he really likes Cats daughter. Thats why he dropped his guard and acted like a young teenager when he made the snow castle (sweetest scene ever BTW), he probably thought he was with Cat when they were kids.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more then I did. If I had reufsed you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce"

ETA @Brash

I'm so busy this weekend I'll have no chance to fourm. I'll postpone my thunder till monday

[Grail King]

My impression is that Sansa's nievity is just an extension of the author criticsing the nievity of honourable characters like Ned Stark and didn't think of any greater thing other than that. By and large Sansa is a victim who I felt sorry for. I don't really see how she 'reaps what she has sown', if anything shes innocent of just about everything and only suffers as a female hostage would during the middle ages.

I imagine that dynamic will change sooner or later. I think she might develop a motherly attachment to Jon Arryn and manage to nurse him to health. Littlefinger then tries to poison the kid and Sansa steals him away to the Lords of the Vale. This is because she knows that without his hostage Baelish has nothing and revealing herself as a Stark. A bit like a cut out the middle man. Or she could manipulate Baelish affection for her; which I think is genuine, he really likes Cats daughter. Thats why he dropped his guard and acted like a young teenager when he made the snow castle (sweetest scene ever BTW), he probably thought he was with Cat when they were kids.

I don't think it's genuine, I think he sees her as a means to an end, he's actually a bit delusional basically reliving the Tully years before he naively challenged Brandon and got brought back to some ugly truths about status in Westeros, and he's been planning revenge for a very long time.

[Grail King]

I was actually thinking about when Jaime returns to King's Landing, and Tywin wants him to give up his cloak and become the heir to Casterly Rock, and Jaime says no.

The reason Jamie can get away with it is 1. he's a typical Westeros ranking male, 2. he's Tywins golden child.

Tyrion is a punishment from the gods, who "killed' his mother and the wife of the powerful lord Tywin.

If Tyrion did not except the offer, they find another way of getting rid of him plus after Sansa gives a male heir she also be gone by an accident no doubt.

Also humiliation or no I don't give a rats ass on Tyrions or people of Lannister township feelings and all the Sansa haters, the girl did the rightful thing by refusing to kneel .

[Raksha the Demon]

I think she learnt that well in Kings Landing, and the answer is very close to "nobody". (I think the one outlier here is Sandor Clegane, since I have a hard time seeing him ratting on her regardless of what she said. On the other hand, he didn't really have any power to wield in the political game, unlike Littlefinger, Cersei etc).

Why should she had trusted Tyrion? He was her captor and he married her against her will. Those are very serious things. A lot of people cut Tyrion a lot of slack because he is funny, he's witty and he's ever so hard done by for not being loved by a beautiful woman, but when he accepts Sansa when Tywin baits him...it really is one of his major points of self delusion.

Also, looking at the bigger picture and assuming then that the Lannisters would always be in power, it meant that Sansa would never be allowed to go North again. The north would never accept a Lannister lord in place of a Lord Stark so Tyrion would find divorce by axe in the north had he gone there with Sansa. Instead, she would have had to be kept in the South as a broodmare and only her son would eventually be allowed to venture north and take up the position as Lord Stark. It's even been theorised that to remove complications of people trying to off Tyrion and place Sansa as the Stark in Winterfell that once she had produced a couple of heirs, she would have an "accident".

If you look at the bigger picture here regarding Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, it's extremely bleak.

Now of course the Lannisters are loosing power, but as of early ASOS few people could have foreseen that, least of all Tyrion.

Dontos she trusted because she had no real choice, and once Littlefinger does his little speech, she is convinced Dontos was only in it for money, too, but this could also just be Littlefinger trying to smear him.

I doubt that Sansa would not be allowed to go North with Tyrion after she married him. Given the anger of Ned Stark's former bannermen, Tywin would be a fool just to send the Lannister Imp to Winterfell with some Lannister troops and a baby that none of the Northmen have ever seen before and an announcement that the kid is Ned Stark's grandson. In fact, it would have been better for Tyrion to bring Sansa north with troops after he married her, so their child could be hopefully conceived and born in Winterfell, so the Stark vassals would be sure that the child was Sansa's. They knew Sansa; and they don't know, or want to know Tyrion. Any chance that the Stark bannermen would accept Tyrion's lordship for the sake of his child by Sansa would, in my opinion, be contingent on Sansa's presence. The Lannisters might believe that Sansa would cooperate and support Tyrion's regime for the sake of her baby/babies.

There would still be the chance that the Northern lords would indeed attempt to divorce Sansa by an axe; but I think the Lannisters would have to take their chance. They would have a better chance of holding the North under Tyrion if Sansa was with him and the obvious mother of his Lannister babies. Frankly, I'm not sure the Lannisters would have been able to hold the North through Tyrion with or without Sansa's presence, but I think without her cooperative presence, they had no chance.

The biggest problem that I see in the Tyrion/Sansa marriage would occur if Sansa actually did bear a Lannister child. I think it could cause severe depression and guilt; because Sansa distrusted Tyrion but did not hate him and hated/distrusted the Lannisters as a family, and presumably would have at least wanted to love her child. She would have felt very conflicted, to say the least, and would not have been a happy mother. And if the firstborn was a male dwarf, the Stark bannermen and smallfolk would probably have cursed the poor infant.

[Queen Cersei I]

He had some nerve expecting her to kneel for him.

:agree:

Or put out for him. Even if he wasn't expecting it, more hoping for it-- UGH. :ack:

I think one issue with Sansa's character arc specifically in ASOS is this-- GRRM gives far too much sympathy for Tyrion. Don't get me wrong-- he portrays Sansa with sympathy as well, and treats her decision not to sleep with her husband (and her feelings of sexual distaste for him) as fair enough and legitimate. However, I've always felt that GRRM portrays Tyrion's misery about Sansa not loving him and not being able to find a gorgeous girl to love him with quite a bit too much sympathy. When Tyrion's humiliation, his feelings of rejection, etc. are all dwelt upon, hard core Tyrion fans tend to turn to blaming Sansa.

Honestly, my first read through of ASOS, I felt equal pity for the two, and felt they were portrayed with equal sympathy. (Though GRRM seemed to personally identify with Tyrion's scenario far more, but that's another issue entirely.) However, going back, here's the thing-- they should NOT be given equal sympathy. Sansa is a political hostage, physically and sexually abused, surrounded by her worst enemies, forced to watch her beloved family be destroyed, and forced into a marriage with an adult man to whom she feels no sexual attraction at the age of 13. Tyrion is a guy who is sad because his wife is not sexually attracted to him, and he can't get the hot girls he wants to sleep with him without paying them. Otherwise, he is actually in a position of incredible privilege: he's part of one of the most powerful families in the realm; his family holds power; he occupies an important position at court; he has vast amounts of money at his personal disposal; he has choice in what happens to him, whom he marries, etc. Compared to Sansa, he's got it made.

In fact, it is arguable that to compare the situations of book three Sansa and book three Tyrion is ridiculous-- Tyrion clearly has it better in almost every respect, save for the looks department. No doubt being a dwarf in Westeros is tough; however, he seems to dedicate more time to complaining about Sansa's distaste and how he has no "fair, happy" woman to love him. Just to give a slight indication of what i'm talking about:

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

He made certain not to look at Sansa, lest his bitterness show in his eyes. You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

"My lady." Tyrion offered Sansa his arm. She took it dutifully, but he could feel her stiffness as they walked up the aisle together. She never once looked down at him.

Sansa sat staring at her hands. She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful. He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy.

She raised her head slowly. He knew what she was seeing; the swollen brutish brow, the raw stump of his nose, his crooked pink scar and mismatched eyes. ...His mouth tightened. What a pathetic little man you are. Did you think babbling about the Lion's Mouth would make her smile? When have you ever made a woman smile but with gold?

Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north.

He turned away, wanting distraction, but everywhere he looked were women, fair fine beautiful happy women who belonged to other men.

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine.

His marriage was a daily agony. Sansa Stark remained a maiden, and half the castle seemed to know it. When they had saddled up this morning, he'd heard two of the stableboys sniggering behind his back. He could almost imagine that the horses were sniggering as well. He'd risked his skin to avoid the bedding ritual, hoping to preserve the privacy of his bedchamber, but that hope had been dashed quick enough. Either Sansa had been stupid enough to confide in one of her bedmaids, every one of whom was a spy for Cersei, or Varys and his little birds were to blame.

What difference did it make? They were laughing at him all the same.

Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

Given this, it's not shocking that some people dislike Sansa for being disgusted by, and rejecting, Tyrion. The not kneeling at the wedding thing is huge, and I hear that complaint again and agiain. ("Would it have killed her to just pretend/ be nice/ make things easier", people often ask. To which I'd reply-- would it have killed Tyrion to reject the perverse marriage in the first place, knowing that Sansa had no desire for him?)

Another thing that brings reader sympathy for Tyrion is everyone at court laughing over the marriage not being consumated. This seems like a great way to portray Tyrion as "persecuted for doing the right thing," and mocked and ridiculed for being decent. However, one wonders-- why couldn't Tyrion have just rejected the marriage offer in the first place? If he'd done so, he'd never have had to deal with the nonconsumation issue and the resulting mockery. At other points Tyrion complains that the gods have cursed him with a gorgeous young wife who wants nothing to do with him. Initially I felt sorry for him, however, on a recent read through, I couldn't help but reflecting that it was Tyrion, rather than the gods, who was ultimately responsible for marrying Sansa. He, unlike her, had a choice.

So honestly, while I don't think GRRM himself demonizes Sansa for not sleeping with Tyrion, and portrays her decision to reject his advances with sensitivity and respect, I do think that the extensive amount of sympathy he grants to Tyrion in this situation lead people to decide to blame Sansa. They love Tyrion, hate to see him upset/ abused, and naturally turn to blaming Sansa for his troubles.

[Queen Cersei I]

The offer is made in Tyrion III ASOS and it's clear that Tyrion could have refused, the offer is couched in terms of Tywin acknowledging that Tyrion's, er, sexual habits are the result of Tywin not having treated him as a man by marring him off earlier:

'"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"'

of course Tywin being Tywin it emerges that this is a hard offer to say no to as he runs through all the noble houses who have rejected a marriage with Tyrion, Tully, Dorne, Royce, Hightower & Florant but:

'"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys..."

To which Tyrion responds with the following delightful and sensitive comment, "I'd rather chop it off and feed it to the goats." Way to keep it classy, Tyrion.

[brashcandy]

I have to agree with Queen Cersei on GRRM trying to give both Sansa and Tyrion equal sympathy in that bedding nightmare, and it's true that Tyrion didn't deserve it. Not only do we have Sansa admitting that Tyrion was just as frightened as she was - which, given the fact that Sansa is a 12 yr old virgin who's just been forced into marrying a much older man who frequents prostitutes, strikes me as a tad bit unbelievable - but we also have Sansa's thoughts on Tyrion's unattractive body, and while one can naturally understand her revulsion, we're also inclined to pity poor Tyrion who can't help how he looks.

[peash]

I think one issue with Sansa's character arc specifically in ASOS is this-- GRRM gives far too much sympathy for Tyrion. ...

So honestly, while I don't think GRRM himself demonizes Sansa for not sleeping with Tyrion, and portrays her decision to reject his advances with sensitivity and respect, I do think that the extensive amount of sympathy he grants to Tyrion in this situation lead people to decide to blame Sansa. They love Tyrion, hate to see him upset/ abused, and naturally turn to blaming Sansa for his troubles.

I don't think its so much GRRM portraying Tyrion with more sympathy, its GRRM protraying Tyrion as wallowing in self-pity, after all, the only portrayal of Tyrion the victim occurs inside Tyrion's own head in his own POV chapters, its not like other characters are going around saying "Sansa's such a bitch for not putting out for Tyrion". I think we're supposed to have more sympathy for Sansa than Tyrion in this relationship.

[Silverin]

ETA @Brash

I'm so busy this weekend I'll have no chance to fourm. I'll postpone my thunder till monday

You forget that tyrion likes to delude himself, and wash his hand, and see himself as a victim.

For example in ACoK, his clansmen were harrassing the townsfolk they were complaining to him about that yet he didn't cared and didn't do anything to stop them. Then he hears people hate him, what is his first thought? It is because he is a dwarf.....

Tyrion likes to feel sorry for himself and paints himself as this misunderstood poor soul who is the victim of his own surrondings. He thinks about himself as the good Lannister and he wants this illusion to remain, because until people hate him for things he can't do anything about (his appearance, his family) he can keep sitting on the high horse and judge those shallow simpletons around him and that makes him feel good about himself (another highhorse thing with him is his brain, for example when he mocked in himself that uneducated poor man in ADwD because well he was uneducated). But once he realises that it is because of his actions, he will fell down on the ground even in his own eyes.

In this situation it is the same. He did accept the proposal because he wanted Winterfell and a pretty wife, despite knowing that means the girls beloved brother will be killed by his family. But at the day of the wedding when he ambushed the little 12 year old girl, that hey you will marry me today he realised that good Lannisters don't do such things. So in order to feel about himslef as someone who can stay on that high horse, he made that speach

1." You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more then I did.

The fact that he is implying the two have to deal with the same amont of discomfort in this marriage, or that he wants just as litttle out of it as Sansa (not true, he is desiring both her and her inheritence, Sansa does not want neither him, neither any Lannister inheritnece, not like he has any), is making him incredible inconsiderate towards her, and just shows how much he didn't realise what a horrible thing he actually have done to her.

This is a situation of again tyrion deluding himself that "he did nothing wrong, but he is the victim of his surrondings", and "washing his hands". Good for tyrion, he can keep sitting on his high horse in his eyes, don't have to see himself for what he actually is, which is not a dwarf as he said to Jon in AGoT (he should actually forget that he is a dwarf, only that way can he see himself for the man who he actually is). No, it is the kind of man who would force a 12 year old girl against her will to marry him, and then feels sorry for himself.

2. "say so, and I will end this farce"

You know I actually wonder what he would have done if Sansa really sais no? Did he actually think she might say yes, or did he know deep down she will dutifully marry him?

So what do you say? Should we still give tyrion a cookie?

meets minimum standards of decent human

[Wun Wun Greyjoy]

Tyrion did have a choice, but at the same time not really. His father is shaming him into the marriage, and for much of the marriage Tyrion was really doing nothing but trying to get his father's approval. Also do you realistically fault Tyrion for going along with the marriage? This marriage is close to a few other arranged marriages that we have seen in ASoIF, it to me is similar to Robert's and Cersei. Sure Robert had a choice, but did he really? Now Tyrion/Sansa is much less extreme sense the west isn't at stake.

One thing going for Tyrion is that he certainly is at least polite in the marriage even if he does, as he often does, wallow in self-pity.

[lilenadheas]

We concentrate too much on questions of gender and class and ignore the horrible reality of the oppression of ten percent of the population by the ninety percent, lets remember here that Arya is left handed ;) had she been right handed her stitching would have been neater and our story different...The modernity appeals to the more democratically minded reader, but it is established in text too.Off the top of my head three attitudes current among the nobles we see are: we have the bluest blood therefore ruling is our right (the Lannister, Viserys type view), showing the velvet glove is the best approach, if we are loved our authority is all the greater (the margaery tyrell view), finally The Ned's attitude that authority is a duty, loyalty and respect have to be earned from your people and are earnt by giving loyalty and respect.Arya follows The Ned's example here. He has Mikken or Poole and other of his men sit at the High Table with him and talks with them, shows publically that he respects and honours them. Arya has picked up from this that it is ok to rub shoulders with anyone and to listen to the experts.Sansa, like you said Lyanna, is too much influenced by Septa Mordane who is obviously a Daily Mail reader (sorry that's an untranslatable concept I fear)!

ooh, low blow. What did Septa Mordane ever do to you? :P

[romantic]

Going back to an older discussion - I've seen numerous times in different threads, the argument that Sansa is mean to her sister and half-brother (an accurate description and far nicer than bastard). Two words - sibling rivalry. My brother was far more horrible to me as a child and I have 5 children who are sometimes as sweet as pie and sometimes ... let's just say the word 'adopted' has been used as well as less-than-kind descriptions of intelligence, looks, cleanliness, etc. - particularly between the ages of 8 (when they really start to understand insults) and 12 (by which time better behaviour is expected). I actually found the Stark family (particularly the tv depiction) to have an unrealistic 'Brady Bunch' feel at times but I understand that they wanted to show their idyllic family life before the horror starts. Using normal sibling rivalry to denigrate Sansa is unfair - find better reasons.

And re. Tyrion and Sansa's marriage. Tyrion is about 25/26? years, just 1-2 years younger, and of far higher status, than Sandor - yet Sandor is a dirty old man who should know better, while Tyrion is some poor, innocent pawn. While I feel sorry for what happened to a 13 yo Tyrion (though still far sorrier for Tysha), I find it hard to feel sorry for a mature Tyrion. Both he and Cersei need to get a backbone and stand up to their dad.

[brashcandy]

Tyrion did have a choice, but at the same time not really. His father is shaming him into the marriage, and for much of the marriage Tyrion was really doing nothing but trying to get his father's approval. Also do you realistically fault Tyrion for going along with the marriage? This marriage is close to a few other arranged marriages that we have seen in ASoIF, it to me is similar to Robert's and Cersei. Sure Robert had a choice, but did he really? Now Tyrion/Sansa is much less extreme sense the west isn't at stake.

One thing going for Tyrion is that he certainly is at least polite in the marriage even if he does, as he often does, wallow in self-pity.

Welcome Wun Wun :) I saw your post earlier about wanting to join in, so hope you're enjoying the discussion.

I wouldn't say that Tyrion is trying to gain his father's approval at this point in the story. After the conversation he has with Tywin in the early part of ASOS he essentially knows that boat has sailed. Tywin tells him in no uncertain terms that he's never going to get Casterly Rock and that he's an ill-formed human being with base desires whom he wishes he could disown. Tyrion's decision to marry Sansa is based instead on his wish to be away from Kings Landing and his family, and to have a means to support himself without relying on Tywin. All well and good, except that it comes at the price of someone else's happiness, a girl who has no say in the matter. This is why his decision here is so very wrong. He's actively contributing to Sansa's suffering (remember his claim in ACOK that he would not "savage" her) all to satisfy his own needs.

I agree that Tywin might have attempted to shame Tyrion into the marriage, but Tyrion is a big boy and could have withstood a little shaming. The truth is that he allows himself to be taken with the idea, because the prospect of marrying Sansa gives him a "queer chill." He talks of sweet-smelling Sansa who likes handsome knights, and despite knowing that he in no way fits the image Sansa's ideal suitor (nevermind being a Lannister), he still desires the fantasy that having a beautiful girl like Sansa represents. And no, this marriage in no way fits the other kinds of arranged marriages that we see in the series, or knew of beforehand. This was an ambush, not an alliance, and Tyrion's attempt to appease Sansa on the wedding day with talk of "ending this farce" was about assuaging his own guilt.