Heresy 13

[Black Crow]

Well here we are again with another refresh for the Heresy thread, now entering upon its 13^th incarnation. For those grown old in the wickedness of heresy it needs no introduction, for those new to it or wary of catching something nasty if they dip a toe into its depths, I’ll explain…

Nothing in Martin’s world is ever quite as it seems on the surface. Not only are narrators unreliable but we believe that the story itself is multi-layered and underpinned by an elemental struggle between Ice and Fire which if not resolved by the restoration of the balance between them will either end in the Ice of an everlasting winter or the Fire of an equally terrible everlasting summer.

Consequently this is the first heresy; that Azor Ahai is not going to save mankind by defeating the Others by using dragonfire in a great battle on the Trident, but on the contrary that Azor Ahai and the forces of Light must be defeated.

The second and more controversial heresy centres around the identification of the Others not as mindless killers intent on the eradication of all living things, but as a race like the Sidhe. 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.’ (GRRM) That’s not to say that they are the Sidhe but the comparisons with their appearance and behaviour (including the adoption of changelings) are striking and sufficient to justify referring to them as such.

The third, and most controversial heresy is that there is a connection between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe and that this will become pivotal to the story as it develops…

As to the rest, we have doubts as to the accuracy of the timelines as presented so long long ago by Maester Luwin, we think that the Wall was erected by magic and not improbably the magic of the Sidhe, rather than by Bran the Builder, we have our suspicions as to what really went down with Bran Stark the Nights King – and when – and generally speaking we enjoy a good in-depth discussion of what may really be going on rooted in both GRRM’s text and folklore – particularly Celtic and Norse folklore.

Feel free to join in rather than lurk. All that we ask is that your contributions are good natured, respect the opinions of others – and have something to back them up which we can properly chew on.

Heresy can be good for you.

[Orrin Storm]

Something that seems more out of place the more "heresy" I take in is the Starks and the Old Gods.

If we can ruffly equate the Old Gods to the Children's Greenseers then how does the connection with the Old Gods and the Others/Sidhe play out?

Working on the assumption that we're not all crazy loons for believing in the Stark/Sidhe connection why would the Starks be, for lack of a better term, twice blessed with Sidhe blood ties and the direwolves/warg abilities.

I'm of the opinion that the Children are neutral in must if not all things, but giving a family with strong ties to ice the gift of skinchanging and one of them greensight... I don't know. It seems to side the Children more with the Others than the Red Priests or R'hllor.

I know there is a certain agnostic air about the heresies, but I don't think the "gods" should be tossed out just because of that. Their is a "presence" about Ice and Fire and Earth. Even if it isn't a god it has a will.

To clarify a point, I'm not saying that I think the Children gave the Stark kids their skinchanger ability, but Bloodraven is more than likely responsible for the direwolves, and since there isn't any suggestion or proof that the warg trait has surfaced in the family recently it is curious at least that all of the children should have it, but that it not be a blessing of Earth or the Old Gods.

Just a thought. Any opinions?

Also @ Black Crow: Thanks for clearing that Wall stuff up for me in the last thread. It makes a bit more sense now.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I have been waiting for the discussion to turn to weirwoods to post this but I think the start of the new thread should not derail any conversations. I have been curious about the weirwood at the Citadel. This is Sam's description;

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss that hung heavy from the tree’s pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch. The tree was full of them, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard.

Now why would Sam think the tree seems to be dying? How can he tell by appearance? This is what Bloodraven says about the weirwoods;

A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed.

So why is ( or it seems to be ) the weirwood at the Citadel dying and who "disturbed" it? Do the maesters want to eradicate weirwoods like they may have attempted with the dragons? For reference here is the only description of a dead weirwood from Jaime;

Some of the trees in their godswood were said to be as old as Raventree’s square towers, especially the heart tree, a weirwood of colossal size whose upper branches could be seen from leagues away, like bony fingers scratching at the sky...

...It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock. This tree was bare and dead, though.

“The Brackens poisoned it,” said his host. “For a thousand years it has not shown a leaf. In

another thousand it will have turned to stone, the maesters say. Weirwoods never rot.”

“And the ravens?” asked Jaime. “Where are they?”

“They come at dusk and roost all night. Hundreds of them. They cover the tree like black leaves,

every limb and every branch. They have been coming for thousands of years. How or why, no man can

say, yet the tree draws them every night.”

[Elaena Targaryen]

Since this is Heresy 13 we should observe the dothraki opinion of that number

“Thirteen is a bad number, Khaleesi,” murmured Jhiqui, in the Dothraki tongue. “It is known.”

It is known

[Black Crow]

To clarify a point, I'm not saying that I think the Children gave the Stark kids their skinchanger ability, but Bloodraven is more than likely responsible for the direwolves, and since there isn't any suggestion or proof that the warg trait has surfaced in the family recently it is curious at least that all of the children should have it, but that it not be a blessing of Earth or the Old Gods.

It does seem odd but perhaps it takes two to tango and that it was only the pairing with the direwolves which brought out the latent ability.

As to your broader point, I think that the Children are only neutral insofar as they are concerned to restore the balance between Ice and Fire - and if the true threat to the balance actually comes from Fire, then they need to align themselves with the Sidhe who seemingly present no threat to them, rather than with the wood burning red lot.

[Black Crow]

I have been waiting for the discussion to turn to weirwoods to post this but I think the start of the new thread should not derail any conversations. I have been curious about the weirwood at the Citadel. This is Sam's description;

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss that hung heavy from the tree’s pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch. The tree was full of them, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard.

Now why would Sam think the tree seems to be dying? How can he tell by appearance?

Presumably the shortage of leaves was a bit of a giveaway. I doubt though that its the maesters who are killing it. After all, its their citadel, so axes, saws...

We did have some discussion before how the maesters are probably descended from the "wise men" of the First Men - in contrast to the Andal septons and that their professed dislike of magic has nothing to do with natural magic, but with the use of magic to interfere with nature. In that respect too the Children/Singers and Others/Sidhe represent the natural side of things and while not necessarily allies are broadly on the same side and both in conflict with Fire and sorcery.

[Orrin Storm]

@ Elaena Targaryen: Could be the maesters have experimented with it. I'm surprised it stands at all considering Oldtown is in the south and the Andals had raid of most of the southern weirwoods. I thought Hightower was an Andal based house too. Could be the maesters have been trying to "break in" to the weirwood through force instead of with greensight (thinking weir-vision haha).

@ Black Crow: Seems legit. I wonder why the red lot have it out to reck the balance. I think it should be obvious that there is one. Most of the readers come to that conclusion on their own even with out the heresy thrown into it. You'd think some of the more informed characters: Jon, Mel, Bran, Stannis, Sam, etc.. Might pick up on it at some point.

[Black Crow]

Fire consumes...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Fire consumes...

My thoughts too. I think that the Children will almost always side with the Ice in an Ice vs. Fire battle, with the exception being if Ice becomes so strong that an age of death ensues (ie the Long Night), which I feel leads further credence to the heresy of the Others/Sidhe having originally been the Wood Dancers.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@ Orrin Storm I agree that it's likely the maesters were experimenting with the weirwood, but to what end?

On the COTF and fire I think this quote from Maester Luwin is interesting;

"Obsidian," Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. "Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."

Obsidian is forged in the fires of the gods and the weapon is all nature like the rest of their attire

[nanother]

To clarify a point, I'm not saying that I think the Children gave the Stark kids their skinchanger ability, but Bloodraven is more than likely responsible for the direwolves, and since there isn't any suggestion or proof that the warg trait has surfaced in the family recently it is curious at least that all of the children should have it, but that it not be a blessing of Earth or the Old Gods.

I'm not quite caught up on the previous thread yet, so I'm not sure what to think of the Stark-Sidhe connection. But Bloodraven does say that it's Bran's blood that makes him a greenseer, which suggests to me that it is hereditary, rather than given. I agree that it's odd to have the ability resurface in all of the kids (if R+L+J then also one cousin) after being dormant for so long, but I guess the direwolves helped with that, and at least Bran got extra nudging from BR in his dreams. Other recent Starks might have had it, but it was weak and/or the circumstances didn't allow for it to develop to any noticeable level? I also wonder if the general decline in magical powers also affected the skinchanging ability, making it harder to manifest. BR seems to have been using his powers just fine, as well as the wildling skinchangers, but for noobs it might make things harder.

[Cheese Pudding]

Winterfell was built before or after the Long Night? I would say after, since TLN lasted a generation and Brandon the Builder as a pivotal part in the history of the "defeat" of the Others.

So, what is the origin of the name Winterfell? Maybe it suggests a pact between COTF/First Man/Others, or it was built in the place where their "victory" (CoTF and First Man's) started (based on Winterfell's hot springs, one may say that a small eruption could have been the origin of this "victory").

What has been debated about it?

[Orrin Storm]

@ Orrin Storm I agree that it's likely the maesters were experimenting with the weirwood, but to what end?

On the COTF and fire I think this quote from Maester Luwin is interesting;

"Obsidian," Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. "Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."

Obsidian is forged in the fires of the gods and the weapon is all nature like the rest of their attire

I think the maesters would experiment for pure knowledge and nothing else. Just part of a study on the "higher mysteries". The idea of learning it or trying to use it is laughed at, but once it was probably something they did a lot of. Especially when Valyria still stood. For one the link is made of V-steel so it's not like they outright disbelieve magic. They seem to just not know how it works themselves, and have at least attempted, with the dragonglass, to copy Valyrian magic. Why not the Children's?

On the use of dragonglass by the Children it is interesting that a force that normally sides with Ice would use fire tools, but I guess it makes sense to a degree. It's all part of a balance they have.

Winterfell was built before or after the Long Night? I would say after, since TLN lasted a generation and Brandon the Builder as a pivotal part in the history of the "defeat" of the Others.

So, what is the origin of the name Winterfell? Maybe it suggests a pact between COTF/First Man/Others, or it was built in the place where their "victory" (CoTF and First Man's) started (based on Winterfell's hot springs, one may say that a small eruption could have been the origin of this "victory").

What has been debated about it?

That is interesting. I've wondered about the name before, but it wasn't until you said something just now that I actually placed that. I'd rank the name based on the "new Pact" being the "fall" of Winter as highly likely.

In my opinion Winterfell was the location the Last Hero probably made the pact with the Others and the Children. It's fits, if the Last Hero is both the first Stark and Bran the Builder, that Winterfell would be built there, and that the name seems to imply winter's fall.

Just like Harren's Hall and the Karlon Stark/ Karl's Hold became Harrenhall and Karstark, Winterfell could have once been known as the place that winter fell.

@nanother: On the blood, there has been several times over the years that the Starks have mixed blood back in with the Wildlings, which are more or less pure first men. The last time this could have happened, if I know my families, could have been when Rickard Stark, Ned's father, married Ned's mother. He was half Flint on her mothers side, but her father goes un-named. If he's from Skaagos or from beyond the wall it would be a brand new shot of First Men blood back into the Stark veins. And even if it wasn't then we know that within the last 300 years Bael the Bard fathered a Stark Lord which would still put the Stark blood on the wild side.

[Harland Flint]

That is interesting. I've wondered about the name before, but it wasn't until you said something just now that I actually placed that. I'd rank the name based on the "new Pact" being the "fall" of Winter as highly likely.

In my opinion Winterfell was the location the Last Hero probably made the pact with the Others and the Children. It's fits, if the Last Hero is both the first Stark and Bran the Builder, that Winterfell would be built there, and that the name seems to imply winter's fall.

I agree that it's interesting that the CotF use Dragonglass (Fire) which is associated with killing Others (Sam the Slayer), they strike me as a balance between Ice and Fire.

Regarding Winter's Fall, could that be related to the fact that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell? Are the Starks descended from the Last Hero who swore to maintain a vigil at Winterfell, as would his ancestors until the end of time?

[Black Crow]

I don't think its a corruption of Winter's fall, or a memory that Winter fell there. Rather I've always taken in the sense of a fell being a hill and that Winterfell therefore means Winter Hill, the seat of the Kings of Winter. We've also discussed in the past the liklihood that its a hollow hill of the Sidhe - hence Bael the Bard and the Lord Stark's daughter living under the castle for a year and a day.

Rather than maintaining a vigil the current thinking is that the Starks were the go-betweens - and protectors of those men left in the lost kingdoms beyond the wall.

[Black Crow]

And even if it wasn't then we know that within the last 300 years Bael the Bard fathered a Stark Lord which would still put the Stark blood on the wild side.

Ah, well that's something we're not so sure of. The story of Bael the Bard is obviously important, but its also a classic changeling story and the plucking of roses is also a reference to the Tam Lin story, which is why some of us are inclined to view this as an infusion of Sidhe blood rather than Wildling blood.

[Alarum]

I find it difficult to embrace Winterfell as the original seat of the Stark Kings of Winter.

• The original structure was a fraction of its current size and would have been dwarfed by other northern keeps (or at least one [you know where I'm going with this]).
  
• A realm of Winter would naturally be centered considerably north of Winterfell. Conversely, Winterfell is positioned in an almost mathematically central location in what is modernly regarded as The North.
  
• The name Winterfell (fell=hill makes too much sense to be true) has some implication of winter ending there. While it could be the site of the fall of the Long Night, I think it is just as feasible that it was a stronghold delineating the southern boundary of Winter's realm.
  

Allowing the fell-hill connection, I think that justifies Winterfell as a barrow housing the Stark kings and not necessarily their seat of power.

[Black Crow]

All we really know of Winterfell is that it is a hollow hill - rather than a man-made barrow - crowned by a castle supposedly first raised by Bran the Builder. That the upper level or levels of the caverns beneath are used as crypts for the Stark dead, while the lower ones are forbidden for reasons which will doubtless become apparent in due course. There are also hot springs. These may be significant in themselves or they may simply be what kept the castle (and the Starks) alive when the white cold came. This may be why the Last Hero was a Stark.

I'd be inclined to suggest therefore that the Starks of Winterfell were settled there at an early date and that has always remained their family home, as distinct from the Nightfort which was the "official" residence of the Kings of Winter. After the Nights King was overthrown, the Starks then ruled not as Kings of Winter but as Kings in the North from Winterfell itself.

[bloodymime]

Presumably the shortage of leaves was a bit of a giveaway. I doubt though that its the maesters who are killing it. After all, its their citadel, so axes, saws...

We did have some discussion before how the maesters are probably descended from the "wise men" of the First Men - in contrast to the Andal septons and that their professed dislike of magic has nothing to do with natural magic, but with the use of magic to interfere with nature. In that respect too the Children/Singers and Others/Sidhe represent the natural side of things and while not necessarily allies are broadly on the same side and both in conflict with Fire and sorcery.

Unless they're trying to introduce a natural parasite, the purple moss, that would kill even weirwoods, or maybe specifically weirwoods.

[Black Crow]

That again depends on where the Maesters really stand and how much they really know. There is an unravelling myth that they are neutral and bound to serve the places where they are sent, irrespective of family or other loyalties. Instead we've seen then human and consequently fallible, but fundamentally I think we can take them to be the heirs of the Wise Men, who helped broker the original Pact.

As such I'd see them closely aligned with the Children/Singers and that it was the Children who taught them raven lore. We're told that once all ravens could talk but that this has largely been lost, hence the carrying of letters. Presumably it was lost because the talking birds were supplied by the Children until they were forced to flee beyond the Wall.

As I've said before I think their distrust of magic isn't fundamental but directed at sorcery of the kind practised by the Red lot which goes against the natural order. Its possible that dissidents such as Marwyn may be trying to sabotage the weirwoods, but I don't see it as official policy.