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Tyrion and Sansa

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Sansa is not really very good at treating people with disability or ugly appearance, and I sort of hated that about her. Learning to love Tyrion would be a major character development for her. As someone said, Tyrion isn't particularly bad by Westeros standards. For better or worse, he's been a dutiful Lannister. As for his whoring, it is more likely a by-product of his insecurity.

As for Jaime, I am becoming more convinced ever since reading his POV chapters that the only really bad thing he did was fall in love with the wrong person (Cersei). The implied point that he can't seem to stand Aerys' cruelty just shows that he's not heartless.

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Sansa is not really very good at treating people with disability or ugly appearance, and I sort of hated that about her. Learning to love Tyrion would be a major character development for her. As someone said, Tyrion isn't particularly bad by Westeros standards. For better or worse, he's been a dutiful Lannister. As for his whoring, it is more likely a by-product of his insecurity.

As for Jaime, I am becoming more convinced ever since reading his POV chapters that the only really bad thing he did was fall in love with the wrong person (Cersei). The implied point that he can't seem to stand Aerys' cruelty just shows that he's not heartless.

Sansa was fine with the idea of marrying Willas, who was disabled. To be fair to Sansa, let's look at the disabled or ugly people she had to deal with.

Ilyn Payne didn't have a tongue and was gruff by nature, which scared her (as he prob would any normal little girl). Then he chopped off her fathers head.

Sandor Clegane was burned and not a pretty sight. He was also Joffs dog, and was also very gruff by nature. He wasn't bad to Sansa, but with his occasional threats or hostile words, he acted in a way that caused Sansa to fear him. He isn't good at opening up to people, so having people fear him is kind of like his defense mechanism.

I don't really remember much interaction with Tyrion before she was set to marry him. But at that time, he was as grotesque as he's ever been with his fresh battle scar. Also, at the time, the Lanisters had already killed Ned, abused Sansa, and were at war with her brother. We all know that Tyrion isn't like Cersei or Joff, but it would take a lot of time before Sansa could be certain of that.

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Sansa was fine with the idea of marrying Willas, who was disabled. To be fair to Sansa, let's look at the disabled or ugly people she had to deal with.

Ilyn Payne didn't have a tongue and was gruff by nature, which scared her (as he prob would any normal little girl). Then he chopped off her fathers head.

Sandor Clegane was burned and not a pretty sight. He was also Joffs dog, and was also very gruff by nature. He wasn't bad to Sansa, but with his occasional threats or hostile words, he acted in a way that caused Sansa to fear him. He isn't good at opening up to people, so having people fear him is kind of like his defense mechanism.

I don't really remember much interaction with Tyrion before she was set to marry him. But at that time, he was as grotesque as he's ever been with his fresh battle scar. Also, at the time, the Lanisters had already killed Ned, abused Sansa, and were at war with her brother. We all know that Tyrion isn't like Cersei or Joff, but it would take a lot of time before Sansa could be certain of that.

I do understand you're point. In general I do like Sansa especially with how she manages to deal with her situation in King's Landing. This is the only thing about her that I don't like. With Willas at first she wasn't really that eager to marry him but changed her mind if it meant she can escape from King's Landing. Don't forget that she was mainly attracted to Joffrey and Loras because of their comely looks.

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This relationship always made me sad. I so wanted him to really talk to her, to say all the things he was thinking and for her to see what the reader sees. They were just a tragic couple.

*edited for spelling*

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Sansa is not really very good at treating people with disability or ugly appearance, and I sort of hated that about her. Learning to love Tyrion would be a major character development for her. As someone said, Tyrion isn't particularly bad by Westeros standards. For better or worse, he's been a dutiful Lannister. As for his whoring, it is more likely a by-product of his insecurity.

As for Jaime, I am becoming more convinced ever since reading his POV chapters that the only really bad thing he did was fall in love with the wrong person (Cersei). The implied point that he can't seem to stand Aerys' cruelty just shows that he's not heartless.

Well, I love Jaime, but even I cannot say that the 'only' thing he did wrong was fall for the wrong person. I have done that numerous times, but I never was willing to shove a kid out of a 4 story window because of it.

With regards to Sansa, she is very young when she meets both Tyrion and the Hound. I think she does very well with them, and shows a level of maturity most 12 year olds would not exhibit.

I like Tyrion. He's an interesting character, but he's not someone I would expect a woman to fall for, even if he were tall and not a dwarf. He's a smart aleck, he has impulse control issues, he's (ahem) extremely promiscuous, and to top it all off, he chose to marry a pre-teen because the thought of a pretty, wealthy noble girl appealed to him. I'm not saying any of that is 'bad' on it's own, but if he were a full-size person, I think we would class him with Littlefinger. Because he's not, I think a lot of folks give him a pass. I think he and Sansa were a horrid match, on a bunch of different levels.

Just my opinion...

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Well, I love Jaime, but even I cannot say that the 'only' thing he did wrong was fall for the wrong person. I have done that numerous times, but I never was willing to shove a kid out of a 4 story window because of it.

With regards to Sansa, she is very young when she meets both Tyrion and the Hound. I think she does very well with them, and shows a level of maturity most 12 year olds would not exhibit.

I like Tyrion. He's an interesting character, but he's not someone I would expect a woman to fall for, even if he were tall and not a dwarf. He's a smart aleck, he has impulse control issues, he's (ahem) extremely promiscuous, and to top it all off, he chose to marry a pre-teen because the thought of a pretty, wealthy noble girl appealed to him. I'm not saying any of that is 'bad' on it's own, but if he were a full-size person, I think we would class him with Littlefinger. Because he's not, I think a lot of folks give him a pass. I think he and Sansa were a horrid match, on a bunch of different levels.

Just my opinion...

I respect your opinion. I know I won't fall for Tyrion. :drool:

I'm not really saying it's a good match, my starting point is that it already happened. They're already married so it is not outside the realm of possibility for Sansa to at least accept Tyrion in the future. The way she handles people with deformities is not my main point, but what goes on in her head about them (and everyone sees through her fake courtesy), thus saying that actually falling for one is a big leap for her character. I'm not saying that it should happen, only that it could. I liked the Hound for Sansa more (but not as a love interest). As a character, Tyrion is better off alone.

As for the age gap, it really is disconcerting, but it is common in ASoIaF so I don't bring it up as much as possible. Anyhow, I don't think Tyrion liked the idea of marrying Sansa anymore than Sansa did. His "feelings", if he has any for her, came after the wedding. It was Tywin's choice to marry Sansa to her. To compare him with Littlefinger seems unfair to me, but we don't really know what's going on in Littlefinger's head, so maybe they really are the same once we get to know him more. But I'd say definitely similar core motivations.

As for Jaime - what I meant to say is that many, if not all his mistakes, are caused by falling in love with the wrong person. I guess I phrased that part rather poorly.

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I respect your opinion. I know I won't fall for Tyrion. :drool:

<snip>

As for Jaime - what I meant to say is that many, if not all his mistakes, are caused by falling in love with the wrong person. I guess I phrased that part rather poorly.

Argh! Sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I thought you had the hots for Tyrion. Please forgive me.

I probably am being a bit unfair to Tyrion. In some ways, Jaime is the 'darker' Lannister brother, but Tyrion's constant pity party (in AFFC and aDwD) really works my last, frazzled nerve.

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Argh! Sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I thought you had the hots for Tyrion. Please forgive me.

I probably am being a bit unfair to Tyrion. In some ways, Jaime is the 'darker' Lannister brother, but Tyrion's constant pity party (in AFFC and aDwD) really works my last, frazzled nerve.

Dont worry, I prefer to think that we are having friendly debates. Seeing other people's point of view is a good thing to keep us grounded.

Aha, I haven't reached AFFC and ADwD yet so in a way it may be clouding my overall judgment of Tyrion. I'll get to the last two books soon enough.

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If you're like me, just getting to discuss the characters helps to stave off the wishful thinking about the next book from GRRM.

I loved, loved, loved AFFC, but a lot of folks around here like it the least of the books. Besides aSoS, it was my favorite of the five.

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I've read a lot of the bad things said about AFFC, but those sound acceptable to me as well (I'm more forgiving of authors, I guess). AFFC would still be better than a lot of trash fiction that's popular now (I hope).

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IMO, the book is one of the best written of the series. There are portions that are genius.

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I want them to find each other again, just to see if there's anything there. Maybe her experiences will make her less of a ditz and more accepting. Or maybe she'll fall in love with littlefinger

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I want them to find each other again, just to see if there's anything there. Maybe her experiences will make her less of a ditz and more accepting. Or maybe she'll fall in love with littlefinger

:ack:

I think the age gap with Tyrion and Sansa is disconcerting. They make her marry, and his dad try to get him to have sex with her, even though she is not the age of consent in Westeros. I realize the young girls are getting it on with the older guys but she is not even of their acceptable age to do so. Creeeeepy, glad Tyrion kept it in his pants for once.

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Creeeeepy, glad Tyrion kept it in his pants for once.

This was the first thought that came to mind. Sansa was quite gracious and admirable through the whole ordeal.

Spoiler
For me, Tywin's death was not only justified by what he did to Tysha (as it was for Tyrion who did the deed) but also his pairing of Sansa with Tyrion. Really? An arranged marriage is one thing, but to a mutilated dwarf it's something else. No offense to Tyrion but he knows it as well as anyone.

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I really hae no interest in seeing the two of them end up together, permanently or otherwise. I love Tyrion, but it seems to me that his ending should take a different path. Sansa as well. I just finished ASOS and started Feast, but Sansa hasn't really gone though a lot of change like the other characters have. She's had a lot of crappy things HAPPEN to her, but not the kind of growth she's need to be with somebody like Tyrion.

And to be honest, with what I know now, I'd rather

Tyrion seek out Tysha and run away from it all and have a happy ending. No idea is she's still alive or not at this point in the books, but him living with her somewhere out of the reach of the Lannister name and it's effects with the one woman who loved him would be a nice resolution to his story.

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I just want to mention that my own opinion is that Sansa is maturing and undergoing change. I loved the scene when she coaxed "Sweetrobin" into coming down the mountain. She did a masterful job in getting him out of the Eyrie. And when "Sweetrobin" asked "Are you my my mother now?", Sansa answered, "Yes." I think that by taking on the responsibility of taking care of Sweetrobin, she is becoming more of an adult, more active. I think the way Sansa is taking care of Sweetrobin parallels the way Tyrion is taking care of Penny, and the way Tyrion talks Penny into leaving that slavemaster is a lot like how Sansa talks Sweetrobin down the mountain. I think that taking care of someone else is good for both of them.

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I would like to see Sansa and Tyrion reunite at the end. I really like both characters. I think Tyrion is intelligent, witty, and compassionate and although he has a super-charged sex-drive, he is aching for a wife to be loyal to. Although he is physically ugly, I think he would be tremendous fun to life with. I think Sansa is highly principled and has a super-strong inner core. She is developing great skill at dealing with people (I hope Littlefinger doesn't make her too devious!).

I have wondered about Tysha. Of course, no one really knows but GRRM, and I may be completely wrong, but I think Tyrion will meet her again and it will be a disappoinment. My own theory (again, could be totally wrong) is the the "Sailor's Wife" in Braavos is Tysha. and that the Sailor's Wife is also connected with Uncle Gerion. There are strong hints of both connections (daughter Lanna with golden hair; "real husband" was a sailor who sailed away and never came back--Gerion was a sailor,etc ) I think that maybe after the horrible incident when Tysha was raped, charming, kind-hearted Uncle Gerion took her under his protection and when she turned out to be pregnant, secretly married her. He took her to Braavos & supported her for a while. Then when he disappeared while sailing off to look for the Lannister sword, the support stopped, and she resorted to prostitution. If I'm right, and if Tyrion meets up with her again, he will find out that his dear Tysha has been pining for his Uncle Gerion all these years. Poor Tyrion!

Any ideas?

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Sansa is not really very good at treating people with disability or ugly appearance, and I sort of hated that about her.

Actually, Sansa is the only one in the whole story who treats Lollys with kindness and tries to help her. Tyrion on the other hand mocks her at every chance (even after she was gangraped) and is disgusted by her. Sansa is also the only one who treats Sandor like a person and not a dog. She also is willing to marry a cripple and wants him to love her.

She never treats Tyrion unkindly until he forces her to marry him. I think I can give her a pass for that.

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I already explained in my posts that I refer to what Sansa thinks rather than what she actually does so I'd rather not repeat them. Although I don't like this side of her, I don't really begrudge her for it. No one's too good to not have those thoughts. :)

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don't want to go to threads where end of the book is spoiled, so decided to ask question about Tyrion here.

why did he "consider it for a moment, and poured wine from chalice on the floor"? and what was he considering?

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I dont know about you, but I want to see these two get back together and form a relationship based on love, alliance, and the overwhelming need to get back at their enemies...namely Cersei.

I'm not a big fan of this two, but I don't believe they'll ever find a way to love each other. To Sansa, he will always be a Lannister. To Tyrion, she is a pretty clueless girl with a fancy claim who needs protection (maybe not anymore).

It's unlikely also that they'll team up together. Tyrion would love some swords, but the Starks bannerman won't fight for Lady Lannister's husband.

I want it because its not obvious...just like most things in these books...the stuff that you dont expect...turns out to be more interesting. I would love to see Tyrion devise some kind of plan to rescue Sansa who suddenly finds herself in dire straights...then slowly Sansa sees that although Tyrion is nothing she ever wanted in a man looks wise, he however has other qualities that she finds evermore appealing...

LOL I know this is not going to be popular thinking...but what do you guys think?

Well, we all want happy endings for everybody (except LF, Ramsay, Roose, Old Frey, etcetera...) but I doubt Tyrion and Sansa will find their happiness with each other. Sansa wants to go home, while Tyrion wants CR; she's having hots with a certain man, while he's having a lot of thoughts about his ex-wife; and Starks and Lannisters don't mix.

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