Stannis and Tywin?

[Silmarien]

Stannis has one major victory, against a group of people that were completely unfamiliar with heavy cavalry and columns of knight, not to mention they were part refugee convoy, part army.

But he also held Storm's End against Mace Tyrell, and won a crushing naval victory against the Greyjoys. I guess no one made up any songs about these deeds. I don't recall any songs about King Robert either, and he overthrew an entire dynasty.

[7V3N]

Stannis' abandonment of KL in aGoT seemed self serving and cowardly to me.

I was talking about him sleeping with Melisandre... I am not sure how what you are saying is relevant to what I said.

But he also held Storm's End against Mace Tyrell, and won a crushing naval victory against the Greyjoys. I guess no one made up any songs about these deeds. I don't recall any songs about King Robert either, and he overthrew an entire dynasty.

We know only a few songs, like The Bear and the Maiden Fair and the Reynes of Castamere

[7V3N]

dp

[Silmarien]

We know only a few songs, like The Bear and the Maiden Fair and the Reynes of Castamere

And Edmure's floppy fish song, the one Lem was singing, the hymn that Sansa sings, Florian and Jonquil, and probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting. Maybe someone can list them?

[7V3N]

And Edmure's floppy fish song, the one Lem was singing, the hymn that Sansa sings, Florian and Jonquil, and probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting. Maybe someone can list them?

My point is, there is no way to know every song that is out there. Some may have been made but just weren't very catchy.

[Howling Mad]

I was talking about him sleeping with Melisandre... I am not sure how what you are saying is relevant to what I said.

No problem I typically make irrelevant posts :lol:

[Gurkhal]

I like both Tywin and Stannis but that's probably known by now. :)

Anyhow I think that they are fairly similar to each other with the difference that Tywin isn't as much into an attempt at PR that Stannis is. Stannis talks about justice while Tywin just do his shit and damn be what the sheep think of it. On the other hand Stannis don't care much for the sheep either but he does make a point of at least telling people close to him that his fighting for duty and I am inclined to follow him. Also Stannis did manage to keep his army, that he could save, together from falling appart after the Blackwater so he can inspire fear/loyalty/respect.

Now Stannis problem with people skills is probably what gets to him but he does seem to have some and I never took him to be so unsufferable as some make him out to be. And while some people might find him unlikable I wouldn't mind to be his friend. Not his best friend but I doubt that I'd suffer from a acquaintance.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Stannis is a POS who follows a religious fanatic because he sees advantage, and halfway believes it himself. He is so power hungry he is willing to break all the traditions he claims to uphold just to gain it.

The man who thirsts for power is the least fit for it... Which means, you guessed it, I think Jaime would make the best king... So sue me.

[Ferrous]

Stannis' abandonment of KL in aGoT seemed self serving and cowardly to me.

As was Ned Stark's actions in aGoT

[Sir Omkar]

Stannis is really under-rated. He would make a good King. He's just and dos not fear taking action.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

On land Stannis isn't half of the military leader that Tywin is. How many songs does Stannis have about him crushing his enemies?

Isn't Tywin's military brilliance more an informed attribute rather than something we ever see demonstrated or described? Tywin's field career amounts to victories over the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Defiance of Duskendale, the Green Fork, the Fords and the Riverlands campaign and finally Blackwater. That's three victories (Reynes, Tarbecks and at Duskendale) over rebellious vassals who were outnumbered, a battle against an enemy who was only fighting as a diversion and whose main priority was keeping his army intact and in between Tywin and the North (Green Fork) which, while a victory on the field, was overall a tactical defeat because it allowed Robb to rout Jaime's army and lift the siege of Riverrun, a loss at the Fords, where his forces were repeatedly thrown back, which was lucky in that it allowed him to group up with the Tyrells and win his most famous victory at Blackwater by surprising an enemy that, after combining his army with the Tyrells, he outnumbered by something like 3 or 4 to 1.

When did he ever win an impressive victory on strategy? The Green Fork and the Fords were strategic losses. When was he ever outnumbered? Tywin was highly competent and ruthless, an enemy to be respected, but he never seemed like a great military leader. They wrote a song about his exploits because the singers in Westeros are by and large a bunch of toadies. "The Rains of Castamere" isn't about some daring triumph. It's about a wealthy, powerful man committing mass murder because his subjects were disobedient.

Any of Stannis' victories are far more worthy of a song. Holding Storm's End for a year against the Tyrells, keeping them out of the war. Trapping Victarion at Fair Isle and smashing his fleet then taking Great Wyk during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Leading a force of a few thousand to save the Wall from Mance Raydar's Wildlings, who numbered in the tens of thousands, maybe as many as a hundred thousand, battling giants, mammoths, etc. And he's not done yet. He's obviously got something planned for Ramsay, and then maybe Roose.

They're similar in ways. They're both "hard men," but if they're facing one another in war all else being equal I'm joining Stannis. It'll mean I won't be sent to terrorize the small folk (anyone in Stannis' army who was caught doing what Gregor Clegane or Amory Lorch did as a matter of routine for Tywin you could trust to be dealt with justly) and I believe I'll have a better chance of winning.

[Castel]

Isn't Tywin's military brilliance more an informed attribute rather than something we ever see demonstrated or described?

Tywin's military "brilliance" is never stated. He's more of a strategic/political mastermind. In fact, his campaigns aren't really talked about so much as the end results. It's about him completely going against the established conventions there to reduce the harm the wars cause. Honestly, making assumptions either way about the Reynes and the Tarbecks is pointless. They seem to be more than one disobedient house (at least the Reynes) and similar to the Lords Declarant or a rebellious Hightower but that's a personal opinion so...whatever.

I do think that he's a shrewd tactician, who had to deal with a couple of unavoidable defeats.

As for songs, singers work on the same principles as in some countries in the world today; they're searching for patronage or money. Tywin Lannister may give it to them, Stannis probably won't. I'm certain that Robert could have filled a few dozen cds. Honestly the lack of a songs about the Battle of the Trident is weird. But I guess we saw little of Robert's reign. Hell, he might even hate the songs, they'd remind him of what a pathetic wine sodden ball of mush he was.

As for Stannis, his great victory is against the Ironborn. Holding Storm's End is a demonstration of his willpower, but not tactical brilliance and defeating the wildlings, well that's why armies are disciplined now. Superior equipment +cohesion = curbstomp.

Anyhow I think that they are fairly similar to each other with the difference that Tywin isn't as much into an attempt at PR that Stannis is. Stannis talks about justice while Tywin just do his shit and damn be what the sheep think of it. On the other hand Stannis don't care much for the sheep either but he does make a point of at least telling people close to him that his fighting for duty and I am inclined to follow him. Also Stannis did manage to keep his army, that he could save, together from falling appart after the Blackwater so he can inspire fear/loyalty/respect.

Tywin pretends, but his name is very important to him. He may not care about the moral judgements of others in any sense other than the practical but he clearly cares about the honor of his house.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Tywin's .. more of a strategic/political mastermind. In fact, his campaigns aren't really talked about so much as the end results. It's about him completely going against the established conventions there to reduce the harm the wars cause. Honestly, making assumptions either way about the Reynes and the Tarbecks is pointless. They seem to be more than one disobedient house (at least the Reynes) and similar to the Lords Declarant or a rebellious Hightower but that's a personal opinion so...whatever.

As for Stannis, his great victory is against the Ironborn. Holding Storm's End is a demonstration of his willpower, but not tactical brilliance and defeating the wildlings, well that's why armies are disciplined now. Superior equipment +cohesion = curbstomp.

Tywin pretends, but his name is very important to him. He may not care about the moral judgements of others in any sense other than the practical but he clearly cares about the honor of his house.

I agree that Tywin is judged most favorably for results, not style, but explain "reduce the harm the wars cause," please. You mean the Red Wedding? Tywin's only consideration is how something will affect the power and prestige of the Lannisters. If a choice of his reduces the harm wars cause it's because it benefits his house, not for the sake of it. He spent the war up to that point maximizing the harm caused to the people of the Riverlands, like he maximized the harm done to the Reynes, the Tarbecks, the Darklyns, etc. He only cares about honor or justice if it means he can make his family look better or strengthen its position at no or low cost. I'd say that you'd only want to serve as his "leal vassal" if you were another Lannister or someone obsequious like Pycelle or a performer volunteering to sing "The Rains of Castamere."

Good point about not knowing much about the relative size of the Reynes and Tarbecks but I think some assumptions can reasonably be made. There's no way he was outnumbered in any of those fights. Also fair points about the amount of strategy involved in Storm's End and the Wall but in a question of "What's worthy of a song?" I'd say both were more valiant than anything Tywin Lannister ever did. That could be a side issue, though. Also, I neglected the Sack of King's Landing before, which was textbook Tywin Lannister.

As for no songs about the Trident, that is surprising if there isn't. One would have to exist, even if didn't catch on. It feels like there was a passing mention of one but I could be wrong. Maybe if Dany takes the Iron Throne they can come up with a mournful song about Rhaegar's scattered rubies.

[Lord Paramount of Essos]

Isn't Tywin's military brilliance more an informed attribute rather than something we ever see demonstrated or described? Tywin's field career amounts to victories over the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Defiance of Duskendale, the Green Fork, the Fords and the Riverlands campaign and finally Blackwater. That's three victories (Reynes, Tarbecks and at Duskendale) over rebellious vassals who were outnumbered, a battle against an enemy who was only fighting as a diversion and whose main priority was keeping his army intact and in between Tywin and the North (Green Fork) which, while a victory on the field, was overall a tactical defeat because it allowed Robb to rout Jaime's army and lift the siege of Riverrun, a loss at the Fords, where his forces were repeatedly thrown back, which was lucky in that it allowed him to group up with the Tyrells and win his most famous victory at Blackwater by surprising an enemy that, after combining his army with the Tyrells, he outnumbered by something like 3 or 4 to 1.

When did he ever win an impressive victory on strategy? The Green Fork and the Fords were strategic losses. When was he ever outnumbered? Tywin was highly competent and ruthless, an enemy to be respected, but he never seemed like a great military leader. They wrote a song about his exploits because the singers in Westeros are by and large a bunch of toadies. "The Rains of Castamere" isn't about some daring triumph. It's about a wealthy, powerful man committing mass murder because his subjects were disobedient.

Any of Stannis' victories are far more worthy of a song. Holding Storm's End for a year against the Tyrells, keeping them out of the war. Trapping Victarion at Fair Isle and smashing his fleet then taking Great Wyk during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Leading a force of a few thousand to save the Wall from Mance Raydar's Wildlings, who numbered in the tens of thousands, maybe as many as a hundred thousand, battling giants, mammoths, etc. And he's not done yet. He's obviously got something planned for Ramsay, and then maybe Roose.

if they're facing one another in war all else being equal I'm joining Stannis. It'll mean I won't be sent to terrorize the small folk (anyone in Stannis' army who was caught doing what Gregor Clegane or Amory Lorch did as a matter of routine for Tywin you could trust to be dealt with justly) and I believe I'll have a better chance of winning.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

i agree Stannis is the best millitary commander in the realm, with Tarly second

Also he won Dragonstone for Robert, that should have been quite hard. Consider that it was the last Targ stronghold, so i expect at least 5K inside, because Rhaella went there and didnt go to the Free Cities. (she beleieved it could hold)

And Loras had a hard time storming it, while inside there were like 300 solidiers or less

[The Drunkard]

If Stannis was in Tywin's position (lord of a 'kingdom', massive army at his back) people would likely fear him. And if Tywin was in Stannis' position (lord of a few islands, poor resources) he'd probably be considered a lot like how Stannis is.

[Gurkhal]

I agree that Tywin is judged most favorably for results, not style, but explain "reduce the harm the wars cause," please. You mean the Red Wedding? Tywin's only consideration is how something will affect the power and prestige of the Lannisters. If a choice of his reduces the harm wars cause it's because it benefits his house, not for the sake of it. He spent the war up to that point maximizing the harm caused to the people of the Riverlands, like he maximized the harm done to the Reynes, the Tarbecks, the Darklyns, etc. He only cares about honor or justice if it means he can make his family look better or strengthen its position at no or low cost. I'd say that you'd only want to serve as his "leal vassal" if you were another Lannister or someone obsequious like Pycelle or a performer volunteering to sing "The Rains of Castamere."

Since the Red Wedding was a Frey-Bolton plot I don't see why Tywin would concern himself overtly much with it. He didn't even know it was supposed to be a massacre as opposed to a regular assassination.

Also unlike what some people think wars in Westeros are not fought according to the Genevá Convention. You think Robb was handing out candy in the West? Tywin wanted to win the war and used the most effecient tactics that were available in his time and culture. Also Tywin didn't do anything to the Darklyns but Aerys had them executed. Blame the right guy because surely you don't need to make things up to throw at Tywin?

Good point about not knowing much about the relative size of the Reynes and Tarbecks but I think some assumptions can reasonably be made. There's no way he was outnumbered in any of those fights. Also fair points about the amount of strategy involved in Storm's End and the Wall but in a question of "What's worthy of a song?" I'd say both were more valiant than anything Tywin Lannister ever did. That could be a side issue, though. Also, I neglected the Sack of King's Landing before, which was textbook Tywin Lannister.

How do you know? We don't know what the other bannermen did because they might just as well have stood on the sideline and seen how things developed. Secondly we have very little information about Tywin's time as Hand and thus we don't know what he did or did not do. You are right that Tywin isn't a knight in shinning armor but neither is he the psychopath some people try to make him out to be.

As for no songs about the Trident, that is surprising if there isn't. One would have to exist, even if didn't catch on. It feels like there was a passing mention of one but I could be wrong. Maybe if Dany takes the Iron Throne they can come up with a mournful song about Rhaegar's scattered rubies.

I agree with this. Most likely there has been some songs made about the Trident but never caught on. Which is rather suprising for me as I would assume a guy like Robert would've loved to hear about it time and time again.

[Castel]

You are right that Tywin isn't a knight in shinning armor but neither is he the psychopath some people try to make him out to be.

Tywin indeed wasn't a psychopath. But that's because he was a sociopath. Or ruthless enough that the difference was academic.

[Gurkhal]

Tywin indeed wasn't a psychopath. But that's because he was a sociopath. Or ruthless enough that the difference was academic.

And neither is a sociopath and the difference is more than simply academic.

[Castel]

And neither is a sociopath and the difference is more than simply academic.

Between a sociopath and a psychopath? Yes. Between Tywin's ruthlessness and a sociopath? The only difference I can see is that Tywin isn't impulsive and learns from his mistakes. Which makes him worse in some ways.

Keep in mind that it's been a while since I looked at the symptom list.

[Castel]

I agree that Tywin is judged most favorably for results, not style, but explain "reduce the harm the wars cause," please.

There are certain customs in Westeros there to prevent total war and create a situation where peace is viable. They take hostages, at the end of the war the opposing party is taxed heavily, their lands are taken or their children are taken as hostages to ensure loyalty.

Tywin just skips past all of this and extinguishes entire families. Even in the worst wars in the books people expect that they can surrender and go to the Wall or give hostages to secure peace. Not so with Tywin.