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Gabriel

Just finished ASOS, a few questions on the series so far...

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Hi everyone, I just finished reading ASOS and I'm loving all the political intrigue, I'd like to put forward a few questions that have poped up in my mind and whose answers/theories I haven't found (at least explicitly) on the forums...

- We are told it was Joffrey's idea, acting on his own, to have Bran killed at Winterfell... What I don't understand is why didn't Jaime or Cersei do something to have Bran killed too, as it was vital to them that their secret be kept, and in particular in the case of Cersei she was shown to be willing to do anything to protect their own children. As Cersei says, she would've been able to frighten him or deny it outright when Bran saw them, but after Jaime pushed him, Bran surviving and remembering really wasn't an option for them.

- What's Littlefinger playing at during the events of GOT? He had Jon Arryn killed, made Lysa tell Cat that it was the Lannisters, accused Tyrion, etc...but for what? Just to have Cersei and her kids killed and place Margaery Tyrell in the queen's seat? What would he gain from that? I understand that after Robert's death he does a 180 and wants to keep Joffrey in the Iron Throne mostly because he can have leverage on him versus Stannis who would most likely remove him from all the power he has, and he ends up betraying Ned when he choses the honorable route.

- Finally, Tywin Lannister was Hand for more than 20 years...he was an intelligent fellow, not above betrayals and scheming...so, didn't it ever occur to him that having a secret passage that led anyone into his own chambers without being seen as something potentially VERY dangerous?

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I can't recall where it was mentioned (perhaps in one of Jaime's POVs), but Jaime wouldn't have sent a hired man to kill Bran. He would have done the deed himself if he thought it needed to be done. But he thought that the fall would be enough to kill Bran anyway, and he wasn't worried about what Bran would say when he woke up. Early on in ASOS, he remembers a conversation he had with Cersei (shown in episode 3 of the first season of the HBO show) where he says they can claim Bran is lying about whatever he might say.

Littlefinger's schemes are quite convoluted, but I think the gist of it is that he's trying to get Cat all to himself, and he's orchestrating things to put Ned in a bad situation.

IIRC, the first time Margaery is mentioned in the context of her coming to King's Landing is when Arya overhears the conversation between Varys and Illyrio, where they are plotting to have her become Robert's queen in place of Cersei. I don't think Littlefinger had anything to do with that particular scheme. Littlefinger's involvement with the Tyrells is in ACOK when he journeys to Bitterbridge to recruit them in time to rescue King's Landing from Stannis' forces.

Did Tywin even know about those secret passages? I don't remember if that is stated in the text.

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Hi everyone, I just finished reading ASOS and I'm loving all the political intrigue, I'd like to put forward a few questions that have poped up in my mind and whose answers/theories I haven't found (at least explicitly) on the forums...

- We are told it was Joffrey's idea, acting on his own, to have Bran killed at Winterfell... What I don't understand is why didn't Jaime or Cersei do something to have Bran killed too, as it was vital to them that their secret be kept, and in particular in the case of Cersei she was shown to be willing to do anything to protect their own children. As Cersei says, she would've been able to frighten him or deny it outright when Bran saw them, but after Jaime pushed him, Bran surviving and remembering really wasn't an option for them.

I think Jaime was a lot more logical when it came to this point. If Bran did wake up and remembered, they would just say he imagined it, or that he's lying or that the fall is messing with his head. Surely Jaime and Cersei could have lied their way out of it. However if Bran said something people would start wondering why the kids all have blonde hair, and that wouldn't be good for the Lannister. Maybe another poster will have more info?

IIRC, the first time Margaery is mentioned in the context of her coming to King's Landing is when Arya overhears the conversation between Varys and Illyrio, where they are plotting to have her become Robert's queen in place of Cersei. I don't think Littlefinger had anything to do with that particular scheme. Littlefinger's involvement with the Tyrells is in ACOK when he journeys to Bitterbridge to recruit them in time to rescue King's Landing from Stannis' forces.

I should go back and reread that part. I was speculating with some friends and we had always assumed that the conversation revealed Varys to be a Targaryen loyalist. I was under the impression that they were plotting to somehow bring the Targaryens back into power.

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Hi everyone, I just finished reading ASOS and I'm loving all the political intrigue, I'd like to put forward a few questions that have poped up in my mind and whose answers/theories I haven't found (at least explicitly) on the forums...

- We are told it was Joffrey's idea, acting on his own, to have Bran killed at Winterfell... What I don't understand is why didn't Jaime or Cersei do something to have Bran killed too, as it was vital to them that their secret be kept, and in particular in the case of Cersei she was shown to be willing to do anything to protect their own children. As Cersei says, she would've been able to frighten him or deny it outright when Bran saw them, but after Jaime pushed him, Bran surviving and remembering really wasn't an option for them.

- What's Littlefinger playing at during the events of GOT? He had Jon Arryn killed, made Lysa tell Cat that it was the Lannisters, accused Tyrion, etc...but for what? Just to have Cersei and her kids killed and place Margaery Tyrell in the queen's seat? What would he gain from that? I understand that after Robert's death he does a 180 and wants to keep Joffrey in the Iron Throne mostly because he can have leverage on him versus Stannis who would most likely remove him from all the power he has, and he ends up betraying Ned when he choses the honorable route.

- Finally, Tywin Lannister was Hand for more than 20 years...he was an intelligent fellow, not above betrayals and scheming...so, didn't it ever occur to him that having a secret passage that led anyone into his own chambers without being seen as something potentially VERY dangerous?

- Cersei didn't want to push Bran out of the window in the first place. She felt as though they could lie their way out of it. Jaime pushed Bran out of window because he wasn't thinking right. In the book, it was revealed that Jaime tend to be reckless. He would do something without thinking of the consequences first.

- There is very little known of Littlefinger's motive at this moment (at the end of ASOS).

- I would bet that he didn't even know. Only Tyrion, Varys, and Shae proved to know of such hidden passage thus far.

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We are told it was Joffrey's idea, acting on his own, to have Bran killed at Winterfell... What I don't understand is why didn't Jaime or Cersei do something to have Bran killed too, as it was vital to them that their secret be kept, and in particular in the case of Cersei she was shown to be willing to do anything to protect their own children. As Cersei says, she would've been able to frighten him or deny it outright when Bran saw them, but after Jaime pushed him, Bran surviving and remembering really wasn't an option for them.

I'm in agreement with everyone else here. It seems Jaime felt Brann was no longer a threat but had he then he would have done the deed himself. As for Cersei she was still upset that Jaime had been reckless in pushing Brann out the window. I think they both were really hoping he'd never awake.

What's Littlefinger playing at during the events of GOT? He had Jon Arryn killed, made Lysa tell Cat that it was the Lannisters, accused Tyrion, etc...but for what? Just to have Cersei and her kids killed and place Margaery Tyrell in the queen's seat? What would he gain from that? I understand that after Robert's death he does a 180 and wants to keep Joffrey in the Iron Throne mostly because he can have leverage on him versus Stannis who would most likely remove him from all the power he has, and he ends up betraying Ned when he choses the honorable route.

Littlefinger is a tricky read, especially at this point. Logic would have us dictate that he was trying to set things up to where he could have Lady Cat to himself. However I have to think there is a bigger game afoot here. He is manipulating his way into power little by little and he did say he plays the Game of Thrones.

Finally, Tywin Lannister was Hand for more than 20 years...he was an intelligent fellow, not above betrayals and scheming...so, didn't it ever occur to him that having a secret passage that led anyone into his own chambers without being seen as something potentially VERY dangerous?

Many secrets are kept even from those trusted most in the real world and especially in Westeros. The King was still a paranoid man and a mad one at that. There's no telling why it was there or never revealed.

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There is very little known of Littlefinger's motive at this moment (at the end of ASOS).

Yes, I think there may be more to it than just being all about Cat.

He is manipulating his way into power little by little and he did say he plays the Game of Thrones.

I agree.

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My belief on Little Finger is that his plans have been apart of this great revenge scheme against both house Stark and Tully for what happened to him over the whole Cat and Brandon situation. With the plan consisting of not only rising to greater power than those families and to not win the heart of Cat, but to take their daughter instead, since what would be better than to take the daughter of both houses. He wanted Sansa not Cat, thats why he planned the escape and murder of Joffery, because why else murder Joffery who was continually granting power to him, then to win the heart of Sansa.

Also he pushed Lady Lysa out of the moon door as another sign of saving Sansa, since why would Little Finger quickly murder Lysa when he still needed more time to gain support of the Vale to his cause.

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I see from some of your veiled suggestions that there's more explanations as to Littlefinger motives further on the series. I'm now reading AFFC, and I do notice (not really spoilers) that the secret tunnels knowledge isn't really widespread, which still sounds strange to me given that Tyrion learned about them quick enough. Anyway, I understand it in terms that it serves the story...

About Cersei/Jaime/Bran, it still feels totally out of character for them to take such a big risk for themselves and their own sons if Bran should awake with a memory of the events that happened...what I'm getting at is that I can't shake the feeling that it being Joff's responsibility feels like a retcon. It's really a matter of opinion this one, nothing we can really do about it ;)

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Spoilers and complete and utter speculation below:

I think his initial plan was to get the Eyrie because with his connection to Lysa he had a reasonably god shot at getting it. Obviously Jon Arryn would have to go, but even after that was achieved, Robert would have had no big inclination to let Littlefinger marry Lysa given that he did not respect him or his work and wasn't completly stupid.

After Ned was named Hand it must have been clear to Littlefinger that a rift between House Lannister and House Stark would eventually weaken Robert further from which Littlefinger could have profited, especially if he made other forces (Cersei, the small council, even Ned) believe in his competence and loyality.

I don't think he had the war between Starks and Lannisters really planned, since he could not have forseen, that Catelyn would meet Tyrion in an Inn, but he is a smart man, so when he was presented with the dagger he knew that the Starks would be pissed ("Quick tempers, slow minds") if he implicated Tyrion. That it in the end it would play out so well, probably even surprised him.

In short: I don't think Littlefinger is a mastermind that can plan hundreds of moves in advance, but he is very quick to see an opportunity and use it (the dagger, being all buddy buddy with Ned then turning on him).

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I think his initial plan was to get the Eyrie because with his connection to Lysa he had a reasonably god shot at getting it. Obviously Jon Arryn would have to go, but even after that was achieved, Robert would have had no big inclination to let Littlefinger marry Lysa given that he did not respect him or his work and wasn't completly stupid.

I don't think he had the war between Starks and Lannisters really planned, since he could not have forseen, that Catelyn would meet Tyrion in an Inn, but he is a smart man, so when he was presented with the dagger he knew that the Starks would be pissed ("Quick tempers, slow minds") if he implicated Tyrion. That it in the end it would play out so well, probably even surprised him.

1) the only thing in his way of marrying lysa after jon died was his low birth. he had to become lord of harrenhal to even be considered.

2) he really did lose the dagger to tyrion, no hidden motives there

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