Young Griff: Revealing the depths of the plotline or afterthought?

[DragonsHungry]

Of course, because everyone dislikes Aegon, that is exactly why GRRM will have him win.

It was clearly planned long ago because when the series was a trilogy, the second book was to be called A Dance with Dragons. According to comments Martin made years ago, some event called "the second Dance of the Dragons" would be the subject of this book. This must refer to an Aegon-Dany conflict. Now after the restructuring of the series the actual conflict did not appear in the book actually called ADWD, it was merely set up -- but it has clearly been planned for some time.

The larger purpose is to subvert what we thought was Dany's purpose in the series, as is being discussed in this thread. Dany seemed to be the rightful heir, glorious conquering hero, savior of Westeros -- but what if she's not? And as Lord Varys says, it only makes things more interesting and complex if when Dany finally gets over there, it's not the usurper Lannisters sitting on the throne but her own alleged nephew.

Those are good points. The first "Dance with Dragons" was between Aegon II and his half-sister Rhaenyra, but both died and Rhaenyra's son Aegon III was crowned.

That makes me wonder if one of the Dragons are going to be with Aegon as its rider, a "Second Dance with Dragons" might put Dragons on each side.

Everyone keeps thinking Dany is going to get the Iron Throne, but what if she ends up "Rhenyra" in the scenario, which means Aegon follows her not long after?

There many possibilities. I doubt Dany is just going to waltz in with all three Dragons, save Westeros from the Others, and be given the Iron Throne by cheering multitudes. I don't see it happening.

It is a GRRM series after all, nothing always goes as expected, which the tone was set with Ned Stark in he first book.

[total1402]

Of course, because everyone dislikes Aegon, that is exactly why GRRM will have him win.

T

Not really, he seems like a Mary Sue character and some of the WoW chapters read seem to hint that he has a very good time of it. that screams him being set up for a fall. People don't like him because hes a nobody out the blue character who is just going to conquer everything because the writer, in your view, wants to play a big joke on us after we've paid good money for his books; yes. Also, a bleak ending wouldn't be good. having most of the POV characters dead and nobodies on the throne we've not invested in would be terrible. Neds death was the set-up to all the Starks sufferings, yes, but even he was never a POV character and that was the beginning of our tale and not the end.

[Septon Meribald]

Not really, he seems like a Mary Sue character and some of the WoW chapters read seem to hint that he has a very good time of it. that screams him being set up for a fall. People don't like him because hes a nobody out the blue character who is just going to conquer everything because the writer, in your view, wants to play a big joke on us after we've paid good money for his books; yes. Also, a bleak ending wouldn't be good. having most of the POV characters dead and nobodies on the throne we've not invested in would be terrible. Neds death was the set-up to all the Starks sufferings, yes, but even he was never a POV character and that was the beginning of our tale and not the end.

Are you saying Ned was never a POV character? Because the only Starks to not get POV's are Robb and Rickon.

[DragonsHungry]

Not really, he seems like a Mary Sue character and some of the WoW chapters read seem to hint that he has a very good time of it. that screams him being set up for a fall. People don't like him because hes a nobody out the blue character who is just going to conquer everything because the writer, in your view, wants to play a big joke on us after we've paid good money for his books; yes. Also, a bleak ending wouldn't be good. having most of the POV characters dead and nobodies on the throne we've not invested in would be terrible. Neds death was the set-up to all the Starks sufferings, yes, but even he was never a POV character and that was the beginning of our tale and not the end.

I am betting neither Aegon nor Dany will win, like I pointed out, if it is another "Dance with Dragons", then someone else will win likely. It might not even be a Targ.

I would not assume a happy or sad ending, it will simply be an ending.

[total1402]

I am betting neither Aegon nor Dany will win, like I pointed out, if it is another "Dance with Dragons", then someone else will win likely. It might not even be a Targ.

I would not assume a happy or sad ending, it will simply be an ending.

Sighs. When you read about a character for five books and spend a lot of money on getting involved in a verse. Simply killing said characters off is a real kick in the balls that makes no point and isn't entertaining. If you think that just coz its grimdark its a better thing to do then thats your view but I don't think like that.

Ned was POV but he was at the beginning of the series and to set up the plot. He was also only part of one book, set up from the beginning to make his death a key part of the story hinted with various undertones about how his honour and bad political skills killed him. Danys resolution comes at the end of the tale, after six books of build-up for the final installment and what? You're saying the best thing Martin can do is have a random Mary Sue character KO Dany koz its grimdark and the audience will never expect it? What better and more entertaining thing could happen than Aegon gets Rhaegal and kills his aunt when they had no reason to fight? tragic lol If thats what you want fine. I personally think its dumb and stupid to lead your audience on like that and just kill them off for the lols.

[Tagganaro]

I may be in need of a reread, but I never viewed Aegon as incompetent or bratty or anything like that. He's still very young, but he comes across as a relatively smart, competent, child who is generally nice but has a little bit of a mean streak as well. I seem to recall Tyrion being rather fond of him, he just really dislikes Connington.

It's important to note that Tyrion can make a lot of people appear stupid. He is very smart himself and eats genuine, trusting people like YG for breakfast lol, especially post-crossbow where he's probably given up on ever trusting anyone ever again.

Tyrion's advice to YG is confusing. Tyrion does seem to have conflicting thoughts about it if I remember correctly. At one point he clearly is surprised YG took the advice and doesn't seem to think of the advice as being good advice. But at the time he plays that Cyvasse game with YG, it does seem like it's genuinely good advice. And as a third-party reader with all the information we know, it does SEEM like good advice to me. Dany wasmost likely not going to accept YG coming in, claiming the throne was his, like a beggar as Tyrion put it. Not to mention the terrible situation Dany and her forces are stuck in in Mereen, who knows what kind of danger YG and the Golden Company would be in going there. Additionally, with the state that the Lannisters are stuck in right now YG has chosen to attack at the perfect time as a result of Tyrion's advice.

[total1402]

I may be in need of a reread, but I never viewed Aegon as incompetent or bratty or anything like that. He's still very young, but he comes across as a relatively smart, competent, child who is generally nice but has a little bit of a mean streak as well. I seem to recall Tyrion being rather fond of him, he just really dislikes Connington.

It's important to note that Tyrion can make a lot of people appear stupid. He is very smart himself and eats genuine, trusting people like YG for breakfast lol, especially post-crossbow where he's probably given up on ever trusting anyone ever again.

Tyrion's advice to YG is confusing. Tyrion does seem to have conflicting thoughts about it if I remember correctly. At one point he clearly is surprised YG took the advice and doesn't seem to think of the advice as being good advice. But at the time he plays that Cyvasse game with YG, it does seem like it's genuinely good advice. And as a third-party reader with all the information we know, it does SEEM like good advice to me. Dany wasmost likely not going to accept YG coming in, claiming the throne was his, like a beggar as Tyrion put it. Not to mention the terrible situation Dany and her forces are stuck in in Mereen, who knows what kind of danger YG and the Golden Company would be in going there. Additionally, with the state that the Lannisters are stuck in right now YG has chosen to attack at the perfect time as a result of Tyrion's advice.

Then why does Tyrion refer to it as "bait" afterwards if it was good advice? Excellent advice so it would seem? Tyrion based his assumption that he would fail based on precisely the fortuitous circumstances that have fallen into Aegons lap. A friendly Dorne, Cersei creating enemies and a strong army. I do think that other players will enter the scene, like Euron who has no reason to believe that Vic could betray him with the fire priests aid. He has the biggest fleet able to strike deep into the heart of Westeros and potentiallyraid the Dornish coast. If Oldtown and Highgarden were attacked and Aegon were drawn into a sea battle he could suffer a major defeat.

[Tagganaro]

Then why does Tyrion refer to it as "bait" afterwards if it was good advice? Excellent advice so it would seem? Tyrion based his assumption that he would fail based on precisely the fortuitous circumstances that have fallen into Aegons lap. A friendly Dorne, Cersei creating enemies and a strong army. I do think that other players will enter the scene, like Euron who has no reason to believe that Vic could betray him with the fire priests aid. He has the biggest fleet able to strike deep into the heart of Westeros and potentiallyraid the Dornish coast. If Oldtown and Highgarden were attacked and Aegon were drawn into a sea battle he could suffer a major defeat.

Yes, well that's exactly what is confusing. Because at the time Tyrion gives the advice, it seems unquestionably to be good advice, for the reasons you and Tyrion himself states...Tommen sits the throne, Cersei will be destroying every alliance, the North is in turmoil, basically there's really no one to oppose Aegon.

So I was quite confused when afterwards Tyrion thinks to himself, "I can't believe Aegon took the bait", because on its face, Tyrion's advice was sound. Would YG be better off racing East to Mereen to enter a war with the huge armies of the slave masters? Would Dany accept him if he showed up asking for a Dragon? I really don't know, from everything, it seems like YG is much better off taking Tyrion's advice and it DOES seem to work out very well for him at least based on the end of ADWD.

Without a careful reread, I really don't understand why Tyrion thinks its bad advice. I just looked through the chapter afterwards where Tyrion thinks that about the "bait", but Tyrion doesn't really explain why it was bad advice. He seems to hint at it being a question of identity- Maybe he needs Dany's dragons to really succeed. And in all honesty, this is clearly going to be the major theme/issue of Aegon/YG, beginning in ACOK with the vision in the House of the Undying of the Mummer's Dragon. So, again, as you can tell haha, it's rather confusing at this point. Don't remember if there's any more info about it in later Tyrion chapters.

[total1402]

My view is that it was based on Tyrions observation that YG is too bold and eager to strike. He was trying to teach him the folly of that since events move faster than people, even him and without the firepower ;) of the dragons he could end up messing it all up exactly like Stannis did because he didn't anticipate alliances and his enemies arising in strength to meet him.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think tyrion just couldn't believe that Aegon LISTENED and thought over his advice

[Scabior]

Why does everyone dislike Aegon? What Varys says to Kevan about him on the last page of ADwD makes me think he would be the best king. I was rooting for Stannis, but know I want Aegon VI to sit upon the Iron Throne.

[Septon Meribald]

My view is that it was based on Tyrions observation that YG is too bold and eager to strike. He was trying to teach him the folly of that since events move faster than people, even him and without the firepower ;) of the dragons he could end up messing it all up exactly like Stannis did because he didn't anticipate alliances and his enemies arising in strength to meet him.

I think this is a good assessment. But I think Tyrion failed to account for the alliances that might build up behind Aegon. Connington seems to be surprisingly connected at this point. Of course all that could change.

[total1402]

I think tyrion just couldn't believe that Aegon LISTENED and thought over his advice

But if Tyrion had meant him to follow the advice, why tell it in a convoluted and confusing manner at all? Also, they were going to Slavers Bay, it wasn't in Tyrions interest for YG to take the Golden Company away from their destination. He really seems surprised as if it actually was a worse option than aiding Dany in Mereen.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

But if Tyrion had meant him to follow the advice, why tell it in a convoluted and confusing manner at all?

Because they have only limited trust in Tyrion, he can plant the idea but if he just comes out and straightforwardly tells him to go to Westeros and not to Dany, it's likely to be dismissed out of hand and his standing with Jon C and co will not improve.

Also, they were going to Slavers Bay, it wasn't in Tyrions interest for YG to take the Golden Company away from their destination.

Can you explain why? At first glance, it seems to me that simply as a Lannister Tyrion has reasons to be wary of Dany, and as he says, if they go to Meereen, Dany would outrank Aegon. So why would the idea of conquering Westeros instead be against his interests?

[total1402]

Because they have only limited trust in Tyrion, he can plant the idea but if he just comes out and straightforwardly tells him to go to Westeros and not to Dany, it's likely to be dismissed out of hand and his standing with Jon C and co will not improve.

Can you explain why? At first glance, it seems to me that simply as a Lannister Tyrion has reasons to be wary of Dany, and as he says, if they go to Meereen, Dany would outrank Aegon. So why would the idea of conquering Westeros instead be against his interests?

Not really, he seemed to have the YG completely convinced of the merits of his plan and then Tyrion snaps his open palm and says 'trust no-one, keep your dragons close' (paraphrase)

My impression was that Tyrion wanted to go to slavers bay. My view is that Tyrion figured that Illyrio was aplayer in the Game of Thrones and had a hand on YG shoulder. His room for influence was thus limited to being a pawn. Notice how much he resents living as Illyrios guest and talks light of his motives. He could also suppose that Dany had no or little contact with Illyrio, otherwise why would they need to establish it. He thus spies a risky opening. If he goes to Dany and helps her he'd be in much better stead than if he had to contend with Illyrio using him as a pawn. So, I can't proove it, but his use of the term bait suggests that he used reverse psycology on Griff to try to take him and Illyrio out of the game. He can then argue that Illyrio and the Golden Company abandoned Dany in Mereen; destroying any influence he has over Dany. A bold and risky move, but even he tells Ser Jorah that hes not Jamie and has killed Tywin; the man most responsible for purging the Targ dynasty. If Dany asks, then he can tell her honestly, "I told YG not to go but he wouldn't listen" and he'd be right! The idea planted is completely hidden and appears not as the work of Tyrion trying to get the Golden Company away from Dany but YG idea; she thus has no reason to spot his hand in this. In fact it makes him appear an ardent supporter of hers. Of course, a Lannister pays his debts and he acquires another sell-sword company to make up for the one he took away from her and becomes her trusted councellor without Illyrio or Varys.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm relatively new to the fandom, only in the past year and a half or so. But I know that many older fans have been waiting for "an" Aegon (not necessarily "the" Aegon) to reemerge for a long time. The mummer's dragon clue and GRRM's hesitancy to confirm Aegon's death suggested to a lot of people that this sort of situation might end up happening. The foundation for it was laid such that I don't think it's fair or accurate to call it an afterthought.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

His room for influence was thus limited to being a pawn. Notice how much he resents living as Illyrios guest and talks light of his motives. He could also suppose that Dany had no or little contact with Illyrio, otherwise why would they need to establish it. He thus spies a risky opening. If he goes to Dany and helps her he'd be in much better stead than if he had to contend with Illyrio using him as a pawn. So, I can't proove it, but his use of the term bait suggests that he used reverse psycology on Griff to try to take him and Illyrio out of the game. He can then argue that Illyrio and the Golden Company abandoned Dany in Mereen;

Do you mean to suggest that Tyrion planned to give Jon C and Aegon the slip and make his way to Slaver's Bay & Dany on his own? "Risky opening" indeed... anyways, his reaction to being abducted by Jorah does not seem to point in that direction.

[E-Ro]

I fall into the group that wants him to be a Blackfyre. He doesnt have to die though perhaps king of the Stormlands?(I want seven actual Kingdoms Again at the end of all this the north and riverlands have been through to much to bend the knee to anyone other then a stark.)

[Lord Varys]

When Tyrion talked to Aegon, he was still rather pissed about the fact that Varys and Illyrio used him as pawn in their game.

His advice was both sound political advice and an attempt thwart the plans of the cheesemonger and the eunuch. But Tyrion's main objective obviously was to get closer to Aegon. And his main accomplishment was not to suggest to go to Westeros (that only happened because Jon Connington is dying - had he insisted on going to Meereen, they would have gone there!) but to motivate Aegon to think for himself. The boy is trained and educated very well, but until he met Tyrion he did not start to mistrust/second guess his advisors and his foster father. And in my opinion this was the very reason why Varys sent Tyrion to Aegon in the first place.

Tyrion had no hope to convince Aegon and the Golden Company to go west why he himself traveled east. In fact, he is quite pissed about the fact that Connington abandoned him to Mormont and did not continue east.

The advice to go to Westeros at once will turn out to be a huge success. And considering how Quentyn Martell was received in Meereen, it's quite likely that 'Aegon Targaryen' would have fared no better. That is, not if the whole Golden Company had accompanied him. But even then, Daenerys Targaryen would not have been there, an Quentyn and Aegon would have fought for the same absentee woman.

Had Aegon not gone now, the Targaryens would face a united front when they finally arrived. But right now they have every chance to succeed, if Dany comes indeed eventually to Aegon's aid.

I very much doubt that Aegon is going to marry Myrcella. She is disfigured, after all, and Connington has sword to end the line of the usurper, once and for all. I can only see this happening if he ends up cornered somehow, but I very much doubt that the Lannisters/Tyrells will be able to do very much to stop his rise.

[total1402]

Do you mean to suggest that Tyrion planned to give Jon C and Aegon the slip and make his way to Slaver's Bay & Dany on his own? "Risky opening" indeed... anyways, his reaction to being abducted by Jorah does not seem to point in that direction.

Yeah you're probably right. Even Tyrion isn't that good. It is quite a confusing scene, but he did convince YG of its merits. If it was such good advice then why turn it into a critique of his character and say that he should stay close to the dragons?