Young Griff: Revealing the depths of the plotline or afterthought?

[The Lost Lord]

[on why Tyrion told Aegon to go west]

A very interesting point here is that Martin once said that he had a lot of trouble writing one Tyrion chapter in ADWD, and he ended up fixing it by removing Tyrion out of the scene entirely and telling the scene from a new POV. This must be the first Connington chapter where Aegon announces he wants to go west. Martin originally wanted Tyrion in the scene but must have had trouble making it work for some reason. I would speculate that it's because he wanted to keep Tyrion's motivations obscure for causing what will turn out to be the Second Dance of the Dragons.

Your reading of Tyrion's intentions is very plausible but total1402's reading is quite plausible as well -- Tyrion tells Aegon to leave his cyvasse dragon behind, explains why going west and ditching Dany would be such a wonderful plan, then wins the game and says I lied, always keep your dragon close and trust no one. Martin tells us nothing of Tyrion's thoughts during this entire exchange. He removed Tyrion from the scene where Aegon announced the plan. And then Tyrion later finds out Aegon went west when he's Mormont's prisoner, and he only gets the chance to very briefly marvel that "the pretty princeling" "swallowed the bait" before being distracted by other things.

Sure, Tyrion made very good points about the opportunity presented by Cersei's misrule, and about how Dany might view Aegon as a suitor in Meereen. He could have also made the following points: (1) the dragons are more important than anything else, (2) Splitting off from Dany rather than going to meet her now could eventually lead your interests to conflict with hers, (3) Are you really going to conquer Westeros with just the Golden Company? How likely is that? (Tyrion doesn't even argue that it's likely, he just tells Aegon to try to hold out till Dany arrives, he didn't expect the arrival to be as perfectly timed as it now looks to be.) But Tyrion chose not to make those points.

So why'd he say it? He enjoys manipulating people and thought it would be amusing to turn the whole party in the other direction. Some part of it was wanting to reclaim his own agency and make mischief with Varys and Illyrio's plans. But apart from that I'm not really sure he had any specific goals in mind. We don't always know exactly why we do things sometimes. Remember this was when he was still quite a depressed cynical mess. I'm not sure he had any master plan at all.

[Gravey]

I thought that whole thing was because thats what Tyrion wanted to do. He had every intention of staying with Griff and Aegon and talked them into doing what he wanted.

He doesn't want to go to Danny, he wants to wreak havoc in Westeros to get to his sister. So he talks YG into doing just that, and he intends to be there with them when it happens. Probably intended to talk them into taking Casterly Rock at some point also.

Of course, that didn't work out so well for Tyrion in the end, and he ends up doing what he didn't want to do, without the back up of Griff, YG and the GC.

[DragonsHungry]

Sighs. When you read about a character for five books and spend a lot of money on getting involved in a verse. Simply killing said characters off is a real kick in the balls that makes no point and isn't entertaining. If you think that just coz its grimdark its a better thing to do then thats your view but I don't think like that.

Ned was POV but he was at the beginning of the series and to set up the plot. He was also only part of one book, set up from the beginning to make his death a key part of the story hinted with various undertones about how his honour and bad political skills killed him. Danys resolution comes at the end of the tale, after six books of build-up for the final installment and what? You're saying the best thing Martin can do is have a random Mary Sue character KO Dany koz its grimdark and the audience will never expect it? What better and more entertaining thing could happen than Aegon gets Rhaegal and kills his aunt when they had no reason to fight? tragic lol If thats what you want fine. I personally think its dumb and stupid to lead your audience on like that and just kill them off for the lols.

Why would GRRM kill her off for laughs? That makes no sense and would be pointless.

All I was commenting if there was someone's point about the parallels with the "Second Dance with Dragons". It might not mean they die either, just that neither Dany nor Aegon win.

Different people like different characters, and I am sure people who invested so much in other characters that die will be let down.

[DragonsHungry]

A very interesting point here is that Martin once said that he had a lot of trouble writing one Tyrion chapter in ADWD, and he ended up fixing it by removing Tyrion out of the scene entirely and telling the scene from a new POV. This must be the first Connington chapter where Aegon announces he wants to go west. Martin originally wanted Tyrion in the scene but must have had trouble making it work for some reason. I would speculate that it's because he wanted to keep Tyrion's motivations obscure for causing what will turn out to be the Second Dance of the Dragons.

Your reading of Tyrion's intentions is very plausible but total1402's reading is quite plausible as well -- Tyrion tells Aegon to leave his cyvasse dragon behind, explains why going west and ditching Dany would be such a wonderful plan, then wins the game and says I lied, always keep your dragon close and trust no one. Martin tells us nothing of Tyrion's thoughts during this entire exchange. He removed Tyrion from the scene where Aegon announced the plan. And then Tyrion later finds out Aegon went west when he's Mormont's prisoner, and he only gets the chance to very briefly marvel that "the pretty princeling" "swallowed the bait" before being distracted by other things.

Sure, Tyrion made very good points about the opportunity presented by Cersei's misrule, and about how Dany might view Aegon as a suitor in Meereen. He could have also made the following points: (1) the dragons are more important than anything else, (2) Splitting off from Dany rather than going to meet her now could eventually lead your interests to conflict with hers, (3) Are you really going to conquer Westeros with just the Golden Company? How likely is that? (Tyrion doesn't even argue that it's likely, he just tells Aegon to try to hold out till Dany arrives, he didn't expect the arrival to be as perfectly timed as it now looks to be.) But Tyrion chose not to make those points.

So why'd he say it? He enjoys manipulating people and thought it would be amusing to turn the whole party in the other direction. Some part of it was wanting to reclaim his own agency and make mischief with Varys and Illyrio's plans. But apart from that I'm not really sure he had any specific goals in mind. We don't always know exactly why we do things sometimes. Remember this was when he was still quite a depressed cynical mess. I'm not sure he had any master plan at all.

I agree. I don't think there is some grand Tyrion plan, other than to cause trouble for Cersei.

Tyrion saw an opportunity to play the "Game of Thrones" again briefly, and really stick a knife in his sister. Tyrion was depressed and only spent how much of the book fantasizing about the horrible things he was going to do to her one day.

It might turn out to be "one hell of a move".

[7V3N]

Many others have hit on the foreshadowing within ASOIAF. In the Dunk & Egg novellas, specifically The Mystery Knight, GRRM really hits on the Blackfyre Rebellions. Reading all of them (currently available), along with the constant mentions of the Blackfyre Rebellions in ASOIAF convinced me that GRRM intended to include another one in ASOIAF. Then, queue Young Griff.

The thing that really got me though was Septon Meribald's story of the Crossroads Inn to Brienne. It passed over almost everyone's heads (including my own) on the first read.

[Lord Elrosir]

I wouldn't be too surprised if he was Illyrio's son and born from a female member of the Blackfyre line. It would then make sense why he helped Dany from the beginning.

[Eejit]

Many others have hit on the foreshadowing within ASOIAF. In the Dunk & Egg novellas, specifically The Mystery Knight, GRRM really hits on the Blackfyre Rebellions. Reading all of them (currently available), along with the constant mentions of the Blackfyre Rebellions in ASOIAF convinced me that GRRM intended to include another one in ASOIAF. Then, queue Young Griff.

The thing that really got me though was Septon Meribald's story of the Crossroads Inn to Brienne. It passed over almost everyone's heads (including my own) on the first read.

The Blackfyre Exposition may simply be to explain why Selmy and thus Dany will come to believe Aegon to be an imposter, rather than being an indication that he actually is. The Inn's sign could very easily refer to the return of Dany - a black dragon Targ returning blood-soaked from across the sea.

[Capon Breath]

So enough people have pointed out Mummers dragon & Blackfyre foreshadowing to make me believe hes not an afterthought. So why did GRRM leave introducing YG until the 5th book? IF YG is intended to be a majort part of the story it surely risks failling to engage fans who have spent the previous 4 books getting emotionally attached to the favourite(and most hated) characters,

Just seems wierd is all.

[total1402]

So enough people have pointed out Mummers dragon & Blackfyre foreshadowing to make me believe hes not an afterthought. So why did GRRM leave introducing YG until the 5th book? IF YG is intended to be a majort part of the story it surely risks failling to engage fans who have spent the previous 4 books getting emotionally attached to the favourite(and most hated) characters,

Just seems wierd is all.

Could be setting him up for a fail. Hes having a good time of it and Tyrion IMO had a low opinion of his odds. Plus the surprise factor and sudden twists in the plot. Since Griff isn't a POV character hes more relevent for how he alters the Game of Thrones and interacts with other characters plans like Tyrion and obviously Dany. Sympathising with him and his cause isn't the main drive of the character. A bit like Baelish, big mover of events and certainly has his own motives but we aren't really meant to sympathise with him and his role as a player is more important as a non-POV character.

[Été]

I thought Tyrion planted the idea of going straight to Westeros purely to make trouble. He was speaking off-the-cuff, trying to convince YG to deviate from the established Varys/Illyrio plan; the fact that it was genuinely sound political advice is incidental. Not being invested in their cause, he just wanted to see what happened if YG started acting as an agent in his own right.

[total1402]

I thought Tyrion planted the idea of going straight to Westeros purely to make trouble. He was speaking off-the-cuff, trying to convince YG to deviate from the established Varys/Illyrio plan; the fact that it was genuinely sound political advice is incidental. Not being invested in their cause, he just wanted to see what happened if YG started acting as an agent in his own right.

Tyrion has been quite good at predicting these things. He completely figured out what would happen at the Blackwater. His father appears behind the Baratheon host and smashs it. He only didn't know the details like Tyrell allying because of Baelish and the Northmen being stunned into inaction by the Ironborn attacks. Likewise, he seems to have said that YG will lose because he won't have the dragons if he loses momentum and hits a leader stronger than Cersei. Euron or Baelish could well be formidable opponents and I wouldn't discount Cersei. Perhaps shes changed by the experience of being humiliated and is actually better off humbled than when Tyrion knew her. Did anyone really think that Joffrey should have won at Blackwater? A surprise Lannister triumph isn't impossible, especially if Jamie survives IMO.

[Daemrion]

I have to agree that Young Griff/Aegon comes accross too Mary-Sueish. He has to be set up for a fall.

And also mummer's dragon sort of implies fake.

A surprise Lannister triumph isn't impossible, especially if Jamie survives IMO

There is speculation that the series should end with Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne waiting for the next King.

[Maxpey]

So enough people have pointed out Mummers dragon & Blackfyre foreshadowing to make me believe hes not an afterthought. So why did GRRM leave introducing YG until the 5th book? IF YG is intended to be a majort part of the story it surely risks failling to engage fans who have spent the previous 4 books getting emotionally attached to the favourite(and most hated) characters,

Just seems wierd is all.

You make an interesting point. From reading some of these posts I get the feeling that many people don't want to engage LG/Aegon as a character. I wonder if it's because they assume that he will turn out to be fake and that GRRM will dispose of his plot line relatively quickly?

Along these lines, it's also interesting how many fans assume that Aegon is fake specifically because they doubt that GRRM would introduce such a major character so late in the series. But as you said, given the foreshadowing in the previous books, it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise.

[7V3N]

Sighs. When you read about a character for five books and spend a lot of money on getting involved in a verse. Simply killing said characters off is a real kick in the balls that makes no point and isn't entertaining. If you think that just coz its grimdark its a better thing to do then thats your view but I don't think like that.

Ned was POV but he was at the beginning of the series and to set up the plot. He was also only part of one book, set up from the beginning to make his death a key part of the story hinted with various undertones about how his honour and bad political skills killed him. Danys resolution comes at the end of the tale, after six books of build-up for the final installment and what? You're saying the best thing Martin can do is have a random Mary Sue character KO Dany koz its grimdark and the audience will never expect it? What better and more entertaining thing could happen than Aegon gets Rhaegal and kills his aunt when they had no reason to fight? tragic lol If thats what you want fine. I personally think its dumb and stupid to lead your audience on like that and just kill them off for the lols.

You MUST reread Ned's chapters. They were not filler chapters all setting up for a death. They had major content. We got nearly all our info on the past from Ned. R+L=J would not exist without Ned.

Nobody has been killed off "just cause." Ned was full of political naivety. The only reason it surprised us was because nobody understood how GRRM does not protect characters, and we thought he was going to the Wall. Dany has had it coming. If she gets killed, I would not be surprised. It will be because of her own faults. Ned died because of his own faults. Jon was stabbed because of his own faults. The belief that it is anything near random is naive, since they had it coming.

[total1402]

You MUST reread Ned's chapters. They were not filler chapters all setting up for a death. They had major content. We got nearly all our info on the past from Ned. R+L=J would not exist without Ned.

Nobody has been killed off "just cause." Ned was full of political naivety. The only reason it surprised us was because nobody understood how GRRM does not protect characters, and we thought he was going to the Wall. Dany has had it coming. If she gets killed, I would not be surprised. It will be because of her own faults. Ned died because of his own faults. Jon was stabbed because of his own faults. The belief that it is anything near random is naive, since they had it coming.

Dany paid for those faults in ADWD. She also paid for them when Mirri maz Duur killed Drogo and made her a beggar again; there are probably others. Ned never suffered up until that moment and like Robb his death was a climatic punishment for a character flaw. Dany has paid a lot for her flaws and hasn't had an easy time of it. She hasn't made a host of mistakes and gone unpunished because we're waiting for her big fail; the case of Ned n Robb. She has had punishment come in small but painful installements thorughout the series as her plot moves forward.

Ned n Robbs deaths were important because they moved the wider plot and because of the effect their sudden deaths had on the rest of the characters especially. Since Dany has, as it were, no real connection to the main plot yet or established, it wouldn't be the same if she were to be killed. You didn't get the whole ominous undertone about Ned leaving the North? its like the erry music playing for reading.

[7V3N]

Dany paid for those faults in ADWD. She also paid for them when Mirri maz Duur killed Drogo and made her a beggar again; there are probably others. Ned never suffered up until that moment and like Robb his death was a climatic punishment for a character flaw. Dany has paid a lot for her flaws and hasn't had an easy time of it. She hasn't made a host of mistakes and gone unpunished because we're waiting for her big fail; the case of Ned n Robb. She has had punishment come in small but painful installements thorughout the series as her plot moves forward.

Ned n Robbs deaths were important because they moved the wider plot and because of the effect their sudden deaths had on the rest of the characters especially. Since Dany has, as it were, no real connection to the main plot yet or established, it wouldn't be the same if she were to be killed. You didn't get the whole ominous undertone about Ned leaving the North? its like the erry music playing for reading.

Since Dany stayed in Meereen, everything has been a mistake. Even if you argue that Meereen as not a mistake, she was naive as a ruler and this led to the current hell in Meereen, especially with the Iron Fleet right there with the dragon horn.

[total1402]

Since Dany stayed in Meereen, everything has been a mistake. Even if you argue that Meereen as not a mistake, she was naive as a ruler and this led to the current hell in Meereen, especially with the Iron Fleet right there with the dragon horn.

Which she suffers for throughout most of that book. She even remarks that the gods are punishing her in order to humble her and this terrible situation is itself a punishment which leaves her cast in the wilderness by Drogon and with a potential suitor dead from burns. Not all her fault but she is certainly punished.

How is it Danys fault that the Ironborn are coming for her? Plus, why would Vic use the horn against somebody he believes is Azzor Hai?

WoW is going to be Dany wrapping up things in Mereen and all but annialating the combined forces of Essos.

[7V3N]

Which she suffers for throughout most of that book. She even remarks that the gods are punishing her in order to humble her and this terrible situation is itself a punishment which leaves her cast in the wilderness by Drogon and with a potential suitor dead from burns. Not all her fault but she is certainly punished.

How is it Danys fault that the Ironborn are coming for her? Plus, why would Vic use the horn against somebody he believes is Azzor Hai?

WoW is going to be Dany wrapping up things in Mereen and all but annialating the combined forces of Essos.

When did Victarion say she is Azor Ahai? Victarion wants to force her to marry him and control her dragons using the horn, then taking the driftwood crown for himself.

Dany was just discovered by the Dothraki (Khal Jhaqo) with only Drogon (who does whatever he wants). A khalasar of at least 20K. She also swore the make Jhaqo and Maggo suffer, and she is not one to forget grudges. How the hell do you think she will get to Meereen and take out the army besieging the city, then the rebels within the city, then resist the Iron Fleet and Victarion's army? Not to mention, Meereen is ruined in and out by the Pale Mare.

Let me correct what I said before. You do not just need to reread Ned's chapters. You need to reread the whole series.

[total1402]

When did Victarion say she is Azor Ahai? Victarion wants to force her to marry him and control her dragons using the horn, then taking the driftwood crown for himself.

Dany was just discovered by the Dothraki (Khal Jhaqo) with only Drogon. A khalasar of at least 20K. She also swore the make Jhaqo and Maggo suffer, and she is not one to forget grudges. How the hell do you think she will get to Meereen and take out the army besieging the city, then the rebels within the city, then resist the Iron Fleet and Victarion's army? Not to mention, Meereen is ruined in and out by the Pale Mare.

Let me correct what I said before. You do not just need to reread Ned's chapters. You need to reread the whole series.

He might use the horn and might force Dany. But, he is a fire-worshipper, fanatical even and the man who introduced him to this religion Moqorroa, we know believes that Dany is the one. We're also told that even Vic believes himself to be a natural servant and he seems to have an almost obsessive fantasy image about this woman he calls "the most beautiful in the world". He on a daggers edge between being a villain and throwing himself at Danys feet; what he does is meant to be a surprise in the next book. Besides, didn't Euron seduce his wife? Would it not be the greater f u to your brother if Dany married you willingly?

[Quentyn the Blazed]

GRRM knows we have nothing to do for the years in between books so he gives us as much debatable information as possible. He knew throwing in such a big character this late along with the ambiguous forshadowing is a recipe for heated internet arguments