Views on Stannis.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

- SummerGhostofNymeria, I agree completely

- ckal - if he was so honorable, why did he fail to honor the call to arms by the king (Targaeryen), and became a rebel with his brother Robert? :dunno: He displays an image of honor and justice, but he is weak and uses a lot of unethical means to achieve an end... He is also very bitter and consumed with hatred of how people do not love him or his brother did not give him storms end, etc... Bitter people tend to do terrible deeds imho, and I choose to dislike him, and his red priestess. :bowdown:

That last part is very true. I can't help but wonder if he would be much different without his stupid red priestess because I'm wondering if she's pushed him to become bitter about the situation. If you think about it, how long did he sit around not really saying anything, or complaining much about his situation, and now all of a sudden he's upset that he wasn't given rights to things over his brother? I'm thinking that Melisandre has a huge hand in how he mentally considers things, and although he might not be much of a people's person, with a charming personality, a charming personality isn't always what's fit to rule. Anyway, YAY WE AGREE THOUGH!!! :cheers:

[ckal]

- ckal - if he was so honorable, why did he fail to honor the call to arms by the king (Targaeryen), and became a rebel with his brother Robert? :dunno: He displays an image of honor and justice, but he is weak and uses a lot of unethical means to achieve an end... He is also very bitter and consumed with hatred of how people do not love him or his brother did not give him storms end, etc... Bitter people tend to do terrible deeds imho, and I choose to dislike him, and his red priestess. :bowdown:

I think you may have just misread my comment.

I'm not saying that Stannis is honorable and never have. I was responding to your comment and explaining that Stannis is in fact not about honor nor is he honorable himself. As I said, he is about justice, loyalty, and law.

[Tini]

I am not sure that Melisandre really controls Stannis. Stannis listened to her, he listened to his wife. He listened to Davos, too. He listens, and tries to find his way. He does not make that easy for himself. He is better at recognizing good advice than many other characters. Even if that advice comes from unexpected or unwanted directions.

Now Stannis is out of Melisandre's reach (she cannot even see him in her flames), and it seems unlikely that Melisandre will be able to rejoin him anytime soon. Melisandre was only partially successful in controlling Stannis when she had direct access to him. I think her influence is slipping away the longer their separation lasts. Winter and war have good sides, too.

[Pope Killdragon]

I like that Stannis is unyielding. He will fight to his death and beyond. He won't stop until he's exhausted every avenue to victory even if his brother stands in the way. Kinslayer? So be it. Better a king and kimslayer than a dead rebel. Stannis understands that you win or you die. And so no matter what must be done, he'll do it because the only other option is his death and the death of justice in the realm. HE IS THE KING. Robert had no true born children, the Iron Throne must pass to Stannis and I feel that he wouldnsooner give it to someone else, but he is a man of the law. Stannis stands for justice for the upholding of the laws of the realm and the law says he is king. I don't feel like he's doing this for personal ambition or gain. He's doing it because its. The. Law.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

I like that Stannis is unyielding. He will fight to his death and beyond. He won't stop until he's exhausted every avenue to victory even if his brother stands in the way. Kinslayer? So be it. Better a king and kimslayer than a dead rebel. Stannis understands that you win or you die. And so no matter what must be done, he'll do it because the only other option is his death and the death of justice in the realm. HE IS THE KING. Robert had no true born children, the Iron Throne must pass to Stannis and I feel that he wouldnsooner give it to someone else, but he is a man of the law. Stannis stands for justice for the upholding of the laws of the realm and the law says he is king. I don't feel like he's doing this for personal ambition or gain. He's doing it because its. The. Law.

Completely agree with this post, but then again I do love Stannis. He's doing it because he knows by the laws of Westeros he is the rightful King. Renly was his brother, but he was committing treason in a way, rebelling against the true King. I refer you to good old English history, when King Edward IV had his brother executed for treason (rightfully so) some historians suggest he was killed by being drowned in a barrel of wine.

So if you take precedent (I know it's not Westeros) than Renly deserved to yield, ask forgiveness or die. That's the only reason many dislike Stannis, kinslaying.

[KhaleesiDany]

I don't like Stannis at all.

The best thing about him is Davos.

I hope he dies next.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

I don't like Stannis at all.

The best thing about him is Davos.

I hope he dies next.

*Hiss* How dare you. Long live Stannis Baratheon.

[ckal]

*Hiss* How dare you. Long live Stannis Baratheon.

QFT.

[KhaleesiDany]

*Hiss* How dare you. Long live Stannis Baratheon.

What's so great about him? He thinks he has some right to the throne because his younger brother conquered it. It's debatable, I think he just feels scorned and wants power. Then he killed his other younger brother to get him out of the way--he can play the innocent all he wants you know he had a hand in it. The only reason he helped the Night's Watch was to get some support in the North. He wants to burn down the Godswood. He killed half Davos's kids and almost killed Davos, too. Worst of all, he's in league with that crazy witch up to his balls.

[Pope Killdragon]

Tyrion killed Davos's sons. And yes, gaining the North's support was definitely behind his attack on Mance but what he did was still more than what any of the "kings" or even Jon's brother the oh-so-proud-and-honorable Young Wolf would have done. I dont Stannis ever denied his involvement in Renly's death and besides, I'm sick of that argument. Does anyone realize that Renly fully intended to kill Stannis just as dead?

[LuisDantas]

I despise Stannis with a passion. Always have, ever since he showed a complete lack of war ethics by slaying Renly and shortly after Cortnay Penrose. He simply will never regain my respect after that. It doesn't help that he has become more and more of a shameless hypocrite since.

Yes, he did help the Night's Watch, but he had no true alternative while his rivals had no true opportunity to do the same. And the way he has been conducting his campaign is not at all laudable. If anything, he has lost a lot more of my sympathy during ADWD.

All of his good moments came from recognizing how lickspittles his Lords are and of calling Janos Slynt for his true merits.

Other than that, he is clearly a villain, and an unrredeemable one at that. It just turns out that he is at a favorable position to fight even more sadistic villains ever since he arrived at Castle Black.

[KhaleesiDany]

Renly would have killed Stannis in battle, with honor!

But righteous Stannis killed Renly in the most dishonorable way, by magical assassination.

If you do the wrong thing when no one but two wymyn are watching, you still do the wrong thing.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

There is no honor in killing full stop. If Renly slew his brother among with the thousands of others than that is more honorable than killing two people (through magic) and saving thousands? Nope, not buying it.

What's so great about him? He thinks he has some right to the throne because his younger brother conquered it. It's debatable. He killed half Davos's kids and almost killed Davos, too. Worst of all, he's in league with that crazy witch up to his balls.

As his brother left no heir, he was the rightful King of Westeros as our most loyal and honorable Ned Stark testified too. Renly was therefore a rebel and was disposed of in the best possible way. It avoided battle which would have depleted the Baratheon host.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

[Lady Meera Reed]

What's so great about him? He thinks he has some right to the throne because his younger brother conquered it. It's debatable, I think he just feels scorned and wants power.

Uhm, that was his older brother, Robert. And from Stannis's POV, the throne is his by right because Joffrey is not Robert's trueborn son. Stannis is not power hungry.

"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident." (A Storm of Swords)

Then he killed his other younger brother to get him out of the way--he can play the innocent all he wants you know he had a hand in it.

Renly was his only younger brother, and Renly was an usurper -- he knows Stannis is the heir but he still opposed him because what? He hates Stannis and thinks of himself as a special snowflake .. Just because Renly (& a power hungry family) thought he'd be a ~great king~, doesn't make him one. And IMO he deserved it, he already served his purpose. He's the most overrated character in this series.

The only reason he helped the Night's Watch was to get some support in the North. He wants to burn down the Godswood.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't -- everybody does things for multiple reasons & if you examine it to the 235346354th degree it will always look selfish. What matters to me is he did come to their aid -- when other kings were either crowfood or busy trying to sit their ass on the Iron Throne -- he listened to Davos' counsel and decided that yes, defending the realm he's trying to win should be a King's priority/duty. (Unlike Renly who, for one, blocked the food supply of the people thus letting them starve for ~strategic purposes~ .. What a gr8 king, that man :rolleyes: And can you imagine him going to the Wall? I bet he'll just sit on the Iron Throne all day.)

Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. (A Storm of Swords)

Few of the birds that Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared. (Samwell, A Storm of Swords)

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI. - GRRM

He killed half Davos's kids and almost killed Davos, too. Worst of all, he's in league with that crazy witch up to his balls.

lol I hate saying this, but I really think you should read that part again. Davos' sons chose to ride for battle, in a war where you know, people get killed .. It's not like Stannis forced them to fight for him. They died of wildfire, because Ser Imry Florent was a proud yet shitty commander and didn't listen to Davos' counsel/warning.

Renly would have killed Stannis in battle, with honor!

Aww that's cute. Renly would've been at the safest/farthest end of the battlefield, letting his massive army crush Stannis' forces.

But righteous Stannis killed Renly in the most dishonorable way, by magical assassination.

If you do the wrong thing when no one but two wymyn are watching, you still do the wrong thing.

I feel sorry for Loras' loss, but I'll say this again, Renly deserved it.

Sorry to disappoint you but Stannis already knows that. He knew from the moment he let Melisandre do it that he's cursed, and "[he] will go to his grave thinking of [his] brother's peach."

[Lady Meera Reed]

And to the OP, in case it's not obvious enough, Stannis is my favorite. :P I might not agree with everything he did but I can't help but cheer for him. I will go down with this king.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

Good man yourself Stannis. Agree with everything you say, great argument. I don't understand all the hate for Stannis. Maybe if you just watched the TV show he would seem cold and calculating. But reading the books... You can see he is honorable and dutiful, above all he is just. Obviously, sometimes he is misled by the 'witch.'

[LuisDantas]

There is no honor in killing full stop. If Renly slew his brother among with the thousands of others than that is more honorable than killing two people (through magic) and saving thousands? Nope, not buying it.

Such is your privilege, but I certainly maintain that Renly killing Stannis would be scores more honorable than the reverse turned out to be.

For one thing, Renly would allow Stannis to surrender. For another, he did not go out of his way to cause the confrontation in the first place.

As his brother left no heir, he was the rightful King of Westeros as our most loyal and honorable Ned Stark testified too.

Far as we and Ned knew and know, that is the strict reading of the law of Westeros, yes.

If it is the most correct interpretation of the idea of "rightful King of Westeros" under those circunstances is, however, a far more nebulous question.

Besides, Ned certainly would not think lightly of the assassination of Renly. Were he alive, I fully expect he would turn against Stannis on the spot.

Renly was therefore a rebel and was disposed of in the best possible way. It avoided battle which would have depleted the Baratheon host.

More like the worst, actually; it was not only dishonorable in the extreme, it also pushed House Tyrell towards an alliance with the Lannisters and arguably was the single most destructive act of the entire war.

The alternatives were almost without exception better, except by the sole criterium that they failed to fulfill Stannis' ambitions.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

And Rhaegar wasn't despicable.

[Rody]

I like Stannis - sadly though Melissandre has him on a wrong path - and hell I sure hope he survives the series because he is the last Baratheon male (the others are bastards)

[LuisDantas]

Uhm, that was his older brother, Robert. And from Stannis's POV, the throne is his by right because Joffrey is not Robert's trueborn son. Stannis is not power hungry.

How can you say that, when Stannis himself confesses otherwise to Davos almost from the moment we first see him speak (see his talk about Proudwing in the very first Davos Chapter of ACOK)?

Renly was his only younger brother, and Renly was an usurper -- he knows Stannis is the heir but he still opposed him because what? He hates Stannis and thinks of himself as a special snowflake .. Just because Renly (& a power hungry family) thought he'd be a ~great king~, doesn't make him one. And IMO he deserved it, he already served his purpose. He's the most overrated character in this series.

Renly was indeed attempting to seize the throne and it is only fair to call him an usurper-to-be. But it must be recognized that so is Stannis; the Iron Throne, after all, was very much occupied by someone else.

As for pride, Renly thinks he deserves the throne because he is charismatic, loved and influential. Stannis thinks he deserves the throne because he is bitter with Robert and Renly and happened to be born before Renly.

I just don't know how anyone can conclude that Stannis is less proud or power-hungry than Renly when faced with those facts.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't -- everybody does things for multiple reasons & if you examine it to the 235346354th degree it will always look selfish. What matters to me is he did come to their aid -- when other kings were either crowfood or busy trying to sit their ass on the Iron Throne -- he listened to Davos' counsel and decided that yes, defending the realm he's trying to win should be a King's priority/duty. (Unlike Renly who, for one, blocked the food supply of the people thus letting them starve for ~strategic purposes~ .. What a gr8 king, that man :rolleyes: And can you imagine him going to the Wall? I bet he'll just sit on the Iron Throne all day.)

Different strokes, definitely. I just don't know why you forgive so much of Stannis and think so ill of Renly. There is certainly little if anything in the books to justify such a perspective.

lol I hate saying this, but I really think you should read that part again. Davos' sons chose to ride for battle, in a war where you know, people get killed .. It's not like Stannis forced them to fight for him. They died of wildfire, because Ser Imry Florent was a proud yet shitty commander and didn't listen to Davos' counsel/warning.

That is a valid interpretation, for sure.

A wider, more informed perspective would however notice that Blackwater was made that much more dangerous because Stannis made a point of not seeking an agreement with Renly or the Tyrells. So it is also valid, and IMO more accurate and informative, to say that Stannis' pride killed Davos' sons.

Aww that's cute. Renly would've been at the safest/farthest end of the battlefield, letting his massive army crush Stannis' forces.

Sure. You talk like there is something wrong with that.

I feel sorry for Loras' loss, but I'll say this again, Renly deserved it.

Not at all.

Sorry to disappoint you but Stannis already knows that. He knew from the moment he let Melisandre do it that he's cursed, and "[he] will go to his grave thinking of [his] brother's peach."

Here am I rooting that it doesn't take too long.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

Renly was indeed attempting to seize the throne and it is only fair to call him an usurper-to-be. But it must be recognized that so is Stannis; the Iron Throne, after all, was very much occupied by someone else.

As for pride, Renly thinks he deserves the throne because he is charismatic, loved and influential. Stannis thinks he deserves the throne because he is bitter with Robert and Renly and happened to be born before Renly.

I just don't know how anyone can conclude that Stannis is less proud or power-hungry than Renly when faced with those facts.

The Iron Throne is his by right, that's the only way I can see it. Robert won the throne fairly through conquest, something acceptable, however, Joffrey and his brother are born of incest and are bastards, therefore, they have no right. Renly thinks he will make a good King, Stannis knows he is the rightful King. I liked Renly too, but he should have accepted his brother's right to the throne. He was power hungry, much more than Stannis.