Change in opinions of characters

[Serr Parker]

Just wondering have you changed your opinion on some of the characters since the first book.

Mine so far I hated: Sansa, Littlefinger, and Sam at the start. (Not so much hate Sam he just annoyed me) But now all three are some of my favourite characters.

On the other hand I liked Cat at the start buy she slowly started annoying me more and more and by the RW I couldn't stand her.

[Ser Heathcliff]

I have changed many, many, many of my opinions about characters. The most striking probably would be my complete 180° about Jaime whom I hated in the beginning, but whom I started liking rather suddenly after his discussion with Catelyn just before his release. Otherwise I think there hasn't been anything of such a major scale, maybe with the exception of a few very minor characters (princess Arianne). There were a few changes from the "neutral" to "dislike" cathegory or "like" to "neutral" cathegory or "slightly dislike" to "slightly like" cathegory etc, but nothing too big.

[Elder Sister]

Great question. Thank you!

I've changed my mind about many of the characters, and in some cases changed it again, but I think the ones that stand out most are as follows:

• Sansa - I wouldn't say I've changed my mind as much as the character herself has changed. We have watched her grow, mature, and suffer with lots of grace, through some very unsavory situations. Sansa has become a favorite of mine.
  
• Catelyn - I started out feeling a good bit of empathy for her and her position as a mother and widow trying to cope with major losses and bad situations. Now, I just feel that Cat was absolutely ruled by her emotions, and made some bad, spur of the moment decisions that contributed to her family's demise. That's not to say she didn't deserve to be overwhelmed and grief-stricken, but she allowed her feelings to control her decision making. I went from respect for her to just plain pity.
  
• Jaime - this one is obviously a no-brainer as GRRM wants us to observe the change in his character through both his internal dialogue and his actions. Jaime is also one of my fave povs as he's just dang funny.
  
• Arya - her character development is one of the most disturbing for me. She starts out as a bit of a misfit in the role of the young, noble lady, and she is now developing into something much more sinister. I still love her, but worry about her...and I think she's a casualty of her mother's impetuous actions, honestly.
  
• Tyrion - ditto most of the others - GRRM wants us to change in our perception of Tyrion.
  

The only character that I have really abhorred from the get-go is Littlefinger. I just want to brain him with a warhammer.

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[Serr Parker]

Great question. Thank you!

I've changed my mind about many of the characters, and in some cases changed it again, but I think the ones that stand out most are as follows:

• Sansa - I wouldn't say I've changed my mind as much as the character herself has changed. We have watched her grow, mature, and suffer with lots of grace, through some very unsavory situations. Sansa has become a favorite of mine.
  
• Catelyn - I started out feeling a good bit of empathy for her and her position as a mother and widow trying to cope with major losses and bad situations. Now, I just feel that Cat was absolutely ruled by her emotions, and made some bad, spur of the moment decisions that contributed to her family's demise. That's not to say she didn't deserve to be overwhelmed and grief-stricken, but she allowed her feelings to control her decision making. I went from respect for her to just plain pity.
  
• Jaime - this one is obviously a no-brainer as GRRM wants us to observe the change in his character through both his internal dialogue and his actions. Jaime is also one of my fave povs as he's just dang funny.
  
• Arya - her character development is one of the most disturbing for me. She starts out as a bit of a misfit in the role of the young, noble lady, and she is now developing into something much more sinister. I still love her, but worry about her...and I think she's a casualty of her mother's impetuous actions, honestly.
  
• Tyrion - ditto most of the others - GRRM wants us to change in our perception of Tyrion.
  

The only character that I have really abhorred from the get-go is Littlefinger. I just want to brain him with a warhammer.

• 
  

Good point about Sansa actually. Only person I've hated from the start is Cersie, I've seen some people sympathise a bit with her but especially during AFFC I hate her almost as much as Joffrey.

[Ser Heathcliff]

Sansa - I wouldn't say I've changed my mind as much as the character herself has changed. We have watched her grow, mature, and suffer with lots of grace, through some very unsavory situations. Sansa has become a favorite of mine.

I quite like her, but I think she's been doing that all the time, in a way. The change is very subtle, I think rather that it becomes more visible because she is forced to actually face all these absolutely horrible situations and cope with them.

Arya - her character development is one of the most disturbing for me. She starts out as a bit of a misfit in the role of the young, noble lady, and she is now developing into something much more sinister. I still love her, but worry about her...and I think she's a casualty of her mother's impetuous actions, honestly.

I am not worried about her yet. She is interesting because in a way I didn't like her originally - she seemed like this basic "girl trying to be a boy"-type and I was like "bah, boring". But she has her own path to travel and it is a very interesting one, so I am really looking forward to see what becomes of her.

The only character that I have really abhorred from the get-go is Littlefinger.

Okay, that actually reminded me of something. I didn't have very specific opinion about Littlefinger, I certainly did not like him at first. But the feat of pushing certain person I found rather annoying out of the door actually redeemed him a bit in my eyes. And I cannot fail to "respect" him (VERY huge quotation marks here!!!) for what he managed to accomplish - or in other words: however disgusting he is, you have to give him credit for playing the game really well.

Though far be it from me that I'd "like" him, no, not really, no.

Good point about Sansa actually. Only person I've hated from the start is Cersie, I've seen some people sympathise a bit with her but especially during AFFC I hate her almost as much as Joffrey.

I didn't like her very much originally, then at some point (around the time I started liking Jaime) I developed some sympathy for her, and then again some acts of hers later on were outright disgusting (and she is acting completely crazily, too). Now I think I am feeling about her in a similar way as I think many people think about Catelyn - I sort of pity her and the way I think she has been gradually ruining her own life.

[LampreyPie]

• Tyrion - ditto most of the others - GRRM wants us to change in our perception of Tyrion.
  

Someone else alluded to this, that they changed their opinion of Tyrion or that he "redeemed" himself in their eyes. I don't get it. He's been likeable and sympathetic from the beginning, and my perception of him has remained constant. Do you mean you didn't like him at the beginning, and now you do, or the other way around?

[LampreyPie]

For me, I'd say I did about a 175 on Jaime--not quite a 180, as I always did feel a little empathy for him, taking so much shit for killing Aerys when people should have been thanking him.

Now, I definitely like him, and I think I have a kind of weird literary crush on him. Yes, I have a crush on a one-handed child-crippler who has spent most of his life fucking his twin sister and having illegitimate babies with her. If that's not a sign that GRRM is a good writer, I don't know what is.

[Retoreance Stone]

I actually changed how I felt about Littlefinger. At first I thought he was just some small player in the game and was just there to feed off the scraps the others left behind. But after finishing Feast of Crows his character is more intresting to me, because the whole time I keep thinking "What are his motives?", "What dose he really want?" to me he became a bigger player in this book then I had anticpated.

[Retoreance Stone]

For me, I'd say I did about a 175 on Jaime--not quite a 180, as I always did feel a little empathy for him, taking so much shit for killing Aerys when people should have been thanking him.

Now, I definitely like him, and I think I have a kind of weird literary crush on him. Yes, I have a crush on a one-handed child-crippler who has spent most of his life fucking his twin sister and having illegitimate babies with her. If that's not a sign that GRRM is a good writer, I don't know what is.

I actually like him a whole lot more now after I found out what really happend in the throne room with Aerys. I really don't fault him for what he did, I think I would have done the same had I been there.

[Elder Sister]

Someone else alluded to this, that they changed their opinion of Tyrion or that he "redeemed" himself in their eyes. I don't get it. He's been likeable and sympathetic from the beginning, and my perception of him has remained constant. Do you mean you didn't like him at the beginning, and now you do, or the other way around?

Sorry - just saw your post. Love your name, btw. Every time they talk about eating eel pie in the books, my stomach does a little flip. :) Also, I have to echo your feelings about Jaime...love him even though he's a hot mess.

To me, Martin delberately makes Tyrion morally confusing. We start out knowing him as a character to be pitied. We are made to feel badly for him because of his deformity and his ugly appearance. His intellect is to be applauded, and his whoremongering is understandable, because after all, he gets no love from his family and deserves to find solace where he can. Gradually, (and very slyly, I would add) we are given another view of his character. He chooses not to marry because he actually can be quite harsh in his assessment of women and their beauty, or lack of it. (Ex. his comments about Lollys Stokeworth that someone already pointed out in another post) His tongue is sharp, and he uses it in very cruel ways, with pretty much everyone. His treatment and care of the common people (or lack of it) is another clue. They are not even given a thought other than as a potential threat to his family. And then finally, his actions with regard to Shae and his father show a real lack of control regarding his emotions. I don't think Tyrion acted deliberately...the two acts were done 'in the heat of the moment'.

I don't think Tyrion is evil, but he's definitely a character that can go either way, depending on the right set of circumstances. I'm not sure where Martin will take him, but it's fun going along for the ride.

[LampreyPie]

Sorry - just saw your post. Love your name, btw. Every time they talk about eating eel pie in the books, my stomach does a little flip. :) Also, I have to echo your feelings about Jaime...love him even though he's a hot mess.

To me, Martin delberately makes Tyrion morally confusing. We start out knowing him as a character to be pitied. We are made to feel badly for him because of his deformity and his ugly appearance. His intellect is to be applauded, and his whoremongering is understandable, because after all, he gets no love from his family and deserves to find solace where he can. Gradually, (and very slyly, I would add) we are given another view of his character. He chooses not to marry because he actually can be quite harsh in his assessment of women and their beauty, or lack of it. (Ex. his comments about Lollys Stokeworth that someone already pointed out in another post) His tongue is sharp, and he uses it in very cruel ways, with pretty much everyone. His treatment and care of the common people (or lack of it) is another clue. They are not even given a thought other than as a potential threat to his family. And then finally, his actions with regard to Shae and his father show a real lack of control regarding his emotions. I don't think Tyrion acted deliberately...the two acts were done 'in the heat of the moment'.

I don't think Tyrion is evil, but he's definitely a character that can go either way, depending on the right set of circumstances. I'm not sure where Martin will take him, but it's fun going along for the ride.

I was going to change my username because it seems stupid compared to other people's badass ones, but I'll keep it. Thanks. :) Is yours a reference to a character that perhaps I haven't come across yet?

Anyway, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on almost every point here. I feel like most of those assessments, even if they were true, just make Tyrion a product of his place and time, not an evil person or even a person who can sometimes be evil in the right circumstances. We can't expect him to have a modern level of respect for women or not to have absorbed Westerosi ideas of hierarchy between "highborn" and "lowborn."

Furthermore, I don't agree with your interpretation of his desire not to marry or his inconsideration of common people, and my rebuttal to both of those things can be summed up by, he did marry, and he married a common woman. I think, given the horrific experience that this marriage ended with, we can forgive him for not particularly desiring marriage again. I mean, lots of people IRL don't want to try marriage again after an amicable divorce. Your father forces you to participate in the brutal gang rape of the woman you love and dissolves your marriage? It might leave just a teeny bit of a scar. As to his attitude toward women and beauty, etc., well...we're reading a saga basically set in the Middle Ages, I don't know what you expect from him.

I think, as Hand, Tyrion demonstrated much more concern for the interest of smallfolk than most other characters would in his position. His chain was partly intended to help move the economy in King's Landing. He was the only one at the Red Keep who seemed aware of their suffering and he tried to protect them from Joffrey's worst. He wasn't some pious crusader for the poor, no, but are any of the other characters? Not to mention, I can understand if he wants to just let them bear the brunt of their idiot king and just relax instead and enjoy being a son of Casterly Rock (not that I think he should have). For busting his ass trying to save the city, they reward him with contempt and disdain for the "evil dwarf."

I cannot blame him one iota for killing his father and I think he should have done it far sooner--I see very little grey in that. As far as Shae, well...was her murder justified? No. Can we entirely blame Tyrion? No. This was a woman who made him believe she loved him, then helped condemn him to die on the promise of some jewels and a knight to marry (not to mention sleeping with the man Tyrion hates most). You combine that deep, gutting betrayal with how utterly unloved Tyrion has been most of his life, the lack of influence of any of our modern ideas about violence against helpless women, and should any of us be surprised this ended with murder?

Tyrion's not perfect, and I'm sure we can find some things he has done that were not justified or understandable. But no more than any other character. I think most people who see him as a particularly morally complex character or as someone who's done bad things have been influenced by the fact that he's a Lannister and by the fact that the Starks hate him. We spend AGoT seeing him through other people's eyes, people who believe he's done things he really has not and people who have contempt for him simply because he's a dwarf or because he's a Lannister.I see no evidence for the belief that he isn't a basically good human who hasn't done much to antagonize any other characters, save a few people who have it coming.

[Elder Sister]

I was going to change my username because it seems stupid compared to other people's badass ones, but I'll keep it. Thanks. :) Is yours a reference to a character that perhaps I haven't come across yet?

Anyway, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on almost every point here. I feel like most of those assessments, even if they were true, just make Tyrion a product of his place and time, not an evil person or even a person who can sometimes be evil in the right circumstances. We can't expect him to have a modern level of respect for women or not to have absorbed Westerosi ideas of hierarchy between "highborn" and "lowborn."

Furthermore, I don't agree with your interpretation of his desire not to marry or his inconsideration of common people, and my rebuttal to both of those things can be summed up by, he did marry, and he married a common woman. I think, given the horrific experience that this marriage ended with, we can forgive him for not particularly desiring marriage again. I mean, lots of people IRL don't want to try marriage again after an amicable divorce. Your father forces you to participate in the brutal gang rape of the woman you love and dissolves your marriage? It might leave just a teeny bit of a scar. As to his attitude toward women and beauty, etc., well...we're reading a saga basically set in the Middle Ages, I don't know what you expect from him.

I think, as Hand, Tyrion demonstrated much more concern for the interest of smallfolk than most other characters would in his position. His chain was partly intended to help move the economy in King's Landing. He was the only one at the Red Keep who seemed aware of their suffering and he tried to protect them from Joffrey's worst. He wasn't some pious crusader for the poor, no, but are any of the other characters? Not to mention, I can understand if he wants to just let them bear the brunt of their idiot king and just relax instead and enjoy being a son of Casterly Rock (not that I think he should have). For busting his ass trying to save the city, they reward him with contempt and disdain for the "evil dwarf."

I cannot blame him one iota for killing his father and I think he should have done it far sooner--I see very little grey in that. As far as Shae, well...was her murder justified? No. Can we entirely blame Tyrion? No. This was a woman who made him believe she loved him, then helped condemn him to die on the promise of some jewels and a knight to marry (not to mention sleeping with the man Tyrion hates most). You combine that deep, gutting betrayal with how utterly unloved Tyrion has been most of his life, the lack of influence of any of our modern ideas about violence against helpless women, and should any of us be surprised this ended with murder?

Tyrion's not perfect, and I'm sure we can find some things he has done that were not justified or understandable. But no more than any other character. I think most people who see him as a particularly morally complex character or as someone who's done bad things have been influenced by the fact that he's a Lannister and by the fact that the Starks hate him. We spend AGoT seeing him through other people's eyes, people who believe he's done things he really has not and people who have contempt for him simply because he's a dwarf or because he's a Lannister.I see no evidence for the belief that he isn't a basically good human who hasn't done much to antagonize any other characters, save a few people who have it coming.

Lamprey Pie: Thanks for the great response. I love discussing these characters with people who know and love them. It's a blast. My name is a female take on the Elder Brothers from the Quiet Isle. Although they don't take women, I'm pretending I'm the exception. :)

Okay, on to your points about Tyrion. I do agree with you thatTyrion is not evil, that he is in a way, simply a product of his times, and that the events surrounding his first marriage scarred him for life. Also, it's a no-brainer that people judge him based on his appearance. And we have seen that he can be quite kind and thoughtful. However, Tyrion has a couple of problems that I think affect him severely, and in my opinion, led

to the murder of his lover and father (both of whom are just horrid, anyway). I could not stand Shae, and Tywin was obviously morally bankrupt if he was actively encouraging G. Clegane's many activities, but murdering them was not a good act. It was murder, and imo will be the thing that will be Tyrion's undoing. Yes, they both pretty much deserved it; Shae for fabricating lies at his trial (NOT for acting like she loved him. She was a prostitute. That's what Tyrion was paying her to do.) And his father for pretty much everything he's ever done, but Tyrion forfeited a portion of his soul when he murdered them. Again, just my opinion, but there's a big difference in fighting a man (woman?) fair and square and shooting them in the gut while they're on the pot. Part of everyone's disdain for Jaime Lannister is the manner in which he slayed King Aegon. He shoved his sword in his back. Not cool. Of course, this is the moral code I learned from the Hall of Justice, Spiderman, LOTR and a million other places since I've been a kid. So I could be way off base!

.

Jon Snow is a great example of a character who has had a tough time, but has not allowed it to affect his moral compass. He could have turned out much different (like Ramsay Bolton) but instead we see a basically good man who champions the weak (Sam) and tries to do the right thing. He has chosen a life of moral purity in the Night's Watch. Tyrion on the other hand, has indulged himself constantly his entire adult life. I think this is one of the things that effects him the most. He has no impulse control. We see that in his actions with his father and Shae.

Now, with regards to the common folk, I don't think Tyrion is really different from 99% of the nobles in his time. He just doesn't really give them a thought. He burns down their homes with no thought or feeling for what they'll do or where they'll go...it's not that he has anything against them, he just doesn't really care. Again, that's not really any different from anyone else in his stratosphere. We only see the priest that travels with Brienne and Pod to the Quiet Isle as really being concerned for the common folk and their welfare.

Don't get me wrong - I actually really like Tyrion, but he's given to excessive self pity and a persecution complex, which is not entirely off base when it comes to his family.

[LampreyPie]

Lamprey Pie: Thanks for the great response. I love discussing these characters with people who know and love them. It's a blast. My name is a female take on the Elder Brothers from the Quiet Isle. Although they don't take women, I'm pretending I'm the exception. :)

Okay, on to your points about Tyrion. I do agree with you thatTyrion is not evil, that he is in a way, simply a product of his times, and that the events surrounding his first marriage scarred him for life. Also, it's a no-brainer that people judge him based on his appearance. And we have seen that he can be quite kind and thoughtful. However, Tyrion has a couple of problems that I think affect him severely, and in my opinion, led

to the murder of his lover and father (both of whom are just horrid, anyway). I could not stand Shae, and Tywin was obviously morally bankrupt if he was actively encouraging G. Clegane's many activities, but murdering them was not a good act. It was murder, and imo will be the thing that will be Tyrion's undoing. Yes, they both pretty much deserved it; Shae for fabricating lies at his trial (NOT for acting like she loved him. She was a prostitute. That's what Tyrion was paying her to do.) And his father for pretty much everything he's ever done, but Tyrion forfeited a portion of his soul when he murdered them. Again, just my opinion, but there's a big difference in fighting a man (woman?) fair and square and shooting them in the gut while they're on the pot. Part of everyone's disdain for Jaime Lannister is the manner in which he slayed King Aegon. He shoved his sword in his back. Not cool. Of course, this is the moral code I learned from the Hall of Justice, Spiderman, LOTR and a million other places since I've been a kid. So I could be way off base!

.

Jon Snow is a great example of a character who has had a tough time, but has not allowed it to affect his moral compass. He could have turned out much different (like Ramsay Bolton) but instead we see a basically good man who champions the weak (Sam) and tries to do the right thing. He has chosen a life of moral purity in the Night's Watch. Tyrion on the other hand, has indulged himself constantly his entire adult life. I think this is one of the things that effects him the most. He has no impulse control. We see that in his actions with his father and Shae.

Now, with regards to the common folk, I don't think Tyrion is really different from 99% of the nobles in his time. He just doesn't really give them a thought. He burns down their homes with no thought or feeling for what they'll do or where they'll go...it's not that he has anything against them, he just doesn't really care. Again, that's not really any different from anyone else in his stratosphere. We only see the priest that travels with Brienne and Pod to the Quiet Isle as really being concerned for the common folk and their welfare.

Don't get me wrong - I actually really like Tyrion, but he's given to excessive self pity and a persecution complex, which is not entirely off base when it comes to his family.

Mostly what I'm seeing here is a list of Tyrion's flaws, which he has, but which don't convince me to view him as someone morally ambiguous, at least no more than any given person. Comparing him to Jon is a bit unfair--as much as I do like Jon, he's almost totally a Gary Stu at this point, and the story can't afford more than a couple of characters like that or it wouldn't be such a grittily pseudo-realistic story (at least as far as character's feelings and motivations...obviously not magic or dragon-wise). Not only that, but while Jon has had a hard time in life, with respect to him and you, I don't think it compares to Tyrion's struggles in his early life, which include some serious trauma.

As far as burning down smallfolk homes with no thought or feeling for where they were going to go--are you talking about when he made Bronn get rid of all the hovels around the Mud Gate? He had to get rid of them to protect the city, any other Hand would have seen that. He didn't particularly want to burn their homes, but what was he to do? And he couldn't just wave a magic wand to arrange new housing for that many people. I think he really did have a bit more concern for what happened to the common folk than most other characters would. I don't think he is inclined to see as sharp a distinction between high lords and common folk as most in Westeros. Again, I must repeat, he happily married a crofter's daughter. But he also tends to take a bit of a hedonistic view of life, which I don't mean in a bad way--I mean he sees that going on some pious tirade about the suffering of smallfolk doesn't get them or him anywhere, so he may as well enjoy life as best he can, going on travels, drinking copious amounts of wine, whoremongering.

[Gwendolyn]

Well yes I did, from first book I disliked Sansa, but she grew to me and I Love her now.

I Already dislike Littlefinger, never trust him never will.

I Start to Love Jaime and Brienne.

I Start to hate Cersei even more.

and I hope for gods sake that Jon will change and the little glimpses that we get about him are clearified in ADWD, because from the little snippets I'd read in AFFC I think he changed to really bad...

[Snow Snake]

Jaime's the only one I really feel differently about at this point. I hated him in the first book. Now I really like him, except when I remember to remind myself, "But he pushed Bran out the window!" It's both annoying and impressive that a character can do something like that and still be hard to hate.

[Gabriel Gubert]

I was just disappointed with Cersei during AFFC, because she's one stupid Protector of the Realm and in politics. She makes dumb decisions thinking she's a genius, and that annoyed me, because we could see, while reading, what the effects of her 'political attitudes' would lead her.

And I like Tyrion since chapter one, and that hasn't changed. Seriously, he does say cruel things, but its the truth. That's like the first personality trait that George introduces about him, and during his dialogues with Jon Snow he kind of explained that. I think thats normal, because we know he had to rely in his wits since childhood, and the events that are described about his family, or the things his father's done/said to him really built up to the shae/tywin moment, showing how much hurt he was with all of it, even though he hides that to everyone.

About Jaime, I agree completely about the Aerys matter. "Fuck you" was what I thought to every character that called him Kingslayer, because seriously, he was the _MAD_ KING. i do know that he tried to kill Bran, but to be fair, at that time his character was almost a teenage boy in mind, still madly in love with his sister and also described as a reckless man by everybody. He's maturing now, during AFFC and hopefully through the other books.

I was always very fond of Dany, but in AFFC and the beginning of ADwD, I really was angry with some of the decisions she's made.

[DornishFroggy]

I think i changed my opinion about Jaime... When he's not with his bitch of a sister he acts more honourably.. I don't think it's just

that he lost his hand that made him a better man, it's more about the fact that he's not around Cersei.

[Elder Sister]

I think i changed my opinion about Jaime... When he's not with his bitch of a sister he acts more honourably.. I don't think it's just

that he lost his hand that made him a better man, it's more about the fact that he's not around Cersei.

That's a great point - she's a toxic personality.

[Lady Snowcat]

I was always very fond of Dany, but in AFFC and the beginning of ADwD, I really was angry with some of the decisions she's made.

I feel the exact same way, Gabriel. I really love Dany but her quest to free every slave in Essos is wearing on me & IMHO is clouding her judgment.

Also, my opinion about Cat has really changed. I was very sympathetic towards her in the beginning.

Now in her transformed state she is just a vindictive monster. Maybe Lord Beric should have thought twice before he sacrificed his own life to bring her back.

[Elder Sister]

I feel the exact same way, Gabriel. I really love Dany but her quest to free every slave in Essos is wearing on me & IMHO is clouding her judgment.

Also, my opinion about Cat has really changed. I was very sympathetic towards her in the beginning.

Now in her transformed state she is just a vindictive monster. Maybe Lord Beric should have thought twice before he sacrificed his own life to bring her back.

You've been reading my mail, so to speak. I feel the same way about Dany and Cat.