Reading Women In Westoros

[Maia]

As contraception is moon tea full proof?

I suspect not, since there was that time when Jaime had to find a woman to perform an abortion on Cersei when she got pregnant with Robert's child. And Cersei should have been well-supplied with moon tea, since they were having premarital sex for years.

Also, as you note, Lollys. And other noblewomen in trouble, such as Ashara Dayne and Delena Florent, though in latter case her disohonor was so public that maybe her family thought that there was more to gain from her having a royal bastard.

And there are children of prostitutes - did the mothers keep them on purpose or did the moon tea/ tansy not work once in a while?

Since not even modern birth control works 100%, I suspect that moon tea has it's failure rate too. But it works well enough most of the time.

I'd expect sensible married noblewomen to use it too, after they have produced 2-3 sons and/or reach a certain age.

[Spiderweaves]

I'd expect sensible married noblewomen to use it too, after they have produced 2-3 sons and/or reach a certain age.

If one goes along with the reading that Westeros is supposed to be medieval Europe--and, of course, there are lots of problems with that approach--I would guess that a married, monogamous noblewoman would do well never to take birth control. Look at the Stark family--so many heirs, yet their hold on Winterfell has crumbled.

[Summerqueen]

As contraception is moon tea full proof? I feel like it was asked before why Lollys wasn't given moon tea but I don't remember what people said. I think it would have made sense to give her some.

She was gangraped, so there was doubtless a lot of physical damage. Most people would likely assume she wouldn't be able to conceive in that condition (likely hemorrhaging, infection, etc.). The tea may cause severe cramping and bleeding, too, right? It might have been too much for her to handle after such an ordeal. A long and arduous recovery would also mask many symptoms of pregnancy. By the time ppl would begin to notice, it may well have been too late to abort without further risk to the girl. That's my guess.

[romantic]

So do people think Margaery really asked for moon tea? I assumed that Pycelle was lying but if Margaery asked for it, why? For her cousins or for herself?

And, I thought that Leo Tyrell was extra nasty to Alleras because subconsciously Leo fancied Alleras and as Leo thought Alleras was a he and Leo didn't want to think of himself as gay, Leo was taking it out on Alleras ('blaming the tempter' as it were). I hope I explained that right. Women are often blamed for inflaming the senses of men ('she's asking for it' or making herself attractive simply to get attention) or not returning the affection of men (she's frigid, a lesbian or a slut - she's not interested because she's a slut - how's that supposed to make sense?). In this case, I thought poor Alleras, even pretending to be a guy, was still being blamed by Leo for attracting him.

[Spiderweaves]

So do people think Margaery really asked for moon tea? I assumed that Pycelle was lying but if Margaery asked for it, why? For her cousins or for herself?

I don't know whether she asked for moon tea or not--that would be awfully risky. But it seems like even the notion of her asking for it was enough to blight her character.

[mythsandstuff]

And, I thought that Leo Tyrell was extra nasty to Alleras because subconsciously Leo fancied Alleras and as Leo thought Alleras was a he and Leo didn't want to think of himself as gay, Leo was taking it out on Alleras ('blaming the tempter' as it were). I hope I explained that right. Women are often blamed for inflaming the senses of men ('she's asking for it' or making herself attractive simply to get attention) or not returning the affection of men (she's frigid, a lesbian or a slut - she's not interested because she's a slut - how's that supposed to make sense?). In this case, I thought poor Alleras, even pretending to be a guy, was still being blamed by Leo for attracting him.

I go back and forth on this. First read, what you're describing is pretty much how I read it, but on going back to that scene, the thing that sticks out for me is that Leo is a Tyrrell, so it becomes more about the family thing. I think either reading works.

[romantic]

I go back and forth on this. First read, what you're describing is pretty much how I read it, but on going back to that scene, the thing that sticks out for me is that Leo is a Tyrrell, so it becomes more about the family thing. I think either reading works.

I may have misread the chapter but does anyone know Alleras is a Martell? I've assumed that Alleras was keeping his(her) family name secret because I would think it was fairly easy to confirm there is no male called Alleras Martell. Leo certainly seems to be from the mean side of the Tyrells, unless he's a 2nd/3rd/4th son and is basically pi##ed off because he doesn't have a title and lands of his own so his only career options are knight, Maester or septon.

[Lady Lea]

I may have misread the chapter but does anyone know Alleras is a Martell? I've assumed that Alleras was keeping his(her) family name secret because I would think it was fairly easy to confirm there is no male called Alleras Martell. Leo certainly seems to be from the mean side of the Tyrells, unless he's a 2nd/3rd/4th son and is basically pi##ed off because he doesn't have a title and lands of his own so his only career options are knight, Maester or septon.

No, he doesn't say he's a Martell but he says his father is Dornish (and he talks like a Dornishman). The Tyrells just dislike Dornish people in general I believe

[romantic]

I don't know whether she asked for moon tea or not--that would be awfully risky. But it seems like even the notion of her asking for it was enough to blight her character.

I guess that's the thing. Why would she ask Pycelle for anything - he's Cersei's man? Which would mean Pycelle's lying but I don't get that impression from the text. Unless someone asked Pycelle for the moon tea and said it was for Margaery. Cersei doesn't admit to setting this trap in her POV so could someone else have set it?

[mythsandstuff]

I may have misread the chapter but does anyone know Alleras is a Martell? I've assumed that Alleras was keeping his(her) family name secret because I would think it was fairly easy to confirm there is no male called Alleras Martell. Leo certainly seems to be from the mean side of the Tyrells, unless he's a 2nd/3rd/4th son and is basically pi##ed off because he doesn't have a title and lands of his own so his only career options are knight, Maester or septon.

I'm also thinking it's a secret (since that's generally the point of a secret identity), but if anyone was going to have figured it out, I don't think it's a stretch for that person to be a Tyrrell. If we can figure it out, then I expect at least one of the other characters can figure it out too.

[romantic]

No, he doesn't say he's a Martell but he says his father is Dornish (and he talks like a Dornishman). The Tyrells just dislike Dornish people in general I believe

Okay. Obviosously Leo is even pettier than I thought to dislike an entire area.

[Spiderweaves]

Cersei doesn't admit to setting this trap in her POV so could someone else have set it?

Or could this be that rare event...a continuity error?

[Ser_Patreck]

Okay. Obviosously Leo is even pettier than I thought to dislike an entire area.

Eh, it's petty, but you have to keep in mind that for the better part of the last 300 years, the Reach was Iron Throne shield against the independent Dorne. And probably, the rivalry comes from far earlier. It's like the distrust between French and German from the time of the Napoleonic Wars. It's not simple prejudice.

[romantic]

Re: education for women

One of my favorite recollections in the books is Arianne's memory of a "field trip" Oberyn took the Martell/Sand girls on when they were kids, and how Sarella kept turning over stones and asking questions about the people who had lived there. It establishes her innate curiosity as a reason she might be willing to take extreme action to further her own education in Oldtown, but it's also really sweet to think about Oberyn making special trips so his daughters can learn more history.

And also: Sarella. Is. Awesome.

I agree, Sarella is Awesome. It worries me that the only other instance we have of a woman masqerading as a man (except for Arya who is a child) is Danny Flint (I think that was her name) and we know what horrible things happened to her when she was found out. Obviously Maesters aren't as prone to violence (we hope) but they must have very strict rules against women studying to be maesters. Certainly woman who have assumed male roles (Brienne, Cersei - when she tries to rule, Pretty Meris, Llysa) have not had good experiences in ASOIAF. Sam seems to be very close to his sisters so hopefully he would be on her side if she was ever found out. I suspect if Leo guessed who she was, he might tell on her (unless he secretly fancies her??).

[Jolene Brown]

I guess that's the thing. Why would she ask Pycelle for anything - he's Cersei's man? Which would mean Pycelle's lying but I don't get that impression from the text. Unless someone asked Pycelle for the moon tea and said it was for Margaery. Cersei doesn't admit to setting this trap in her POV so could someone else have set it?

I got the impression there were other potential uses for moon tea, and maybe it was for one of those. Pycelle seems like he's about to go into more detail and Cercei cuts him off before he can finish by saying "I know what moon tea is for." It always gave me the feeling there was more to the story and Cercei just didn't let him get there because as of AFFC, she is written as always thinking no one else has anything valuable to say and that she knows everything.

[Maia]

I guess that's the thing. Why would she ask Pycelle for anything - he's Cersei's man?

Didn't Pycelle try to mention that there are completely innocuous uses for moon tea? Easing menstrual cramps or something?

IMHO, Margaery asked _because_ it was all innoncent and she couldn't imagine Cersei going to crazy lengths to rock the boat. Wouldn't surprise me if one of her many cousins had just "flowered", was having a particularly hard time of it and Marge was asking for her. If she was up to anything illicit, I am sure that she wouldn't have turned to Pycelle, it just didn't occur to her how it could be construed and/or that Cersei could want to destroy the alliance that is keeping Tommen on the throne at all costs.

BTW - unrelated nitpick, but it seems to me that it is completely implausible that Grand Maester doesn't have a staff of subordinate maesters helping him. I mean, where would he find the time to attend to the health of even all the nobles/important people of the court, teach royal children and squires from important families, sit on the council, train ravens, send messages - that's flatly impossible, IMHO.

[mythsandstuff]

I agree, Sarella is Awesome. It worries me that the only other instance we have of a woman masqerading as a man (except for Arya who is a child) is Danny Flint (I think that was her name) and we know what horrible things happened to her when she was found out. Obviously Maesters aren't as prone to violence (we hope) but they must have very strict rules against women studying to be maesters. Certainly woman who have assumed male roles (Brienne, Cersei - when she tries to rule, Pretty Meris, Llysa) have not had good experiences in ASOIAF. Sam seems to be very close to his sisters so hopefully he would be on her side if she was ever found out. I suspect if Leo guessed who she was, he might tell on her (unless he secretly fancies her??).

Yes, but we also have Lyanna dressing up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and we got Jon Snow out of that. I'm of the theory that all of these women in disguise are foreshadowing something big for Sarella. I'm just not sure what that something is, and like you, I hope it's not something terrible. And, yeah, I agree that there's probably some variety of UST with Leo.

[romantic]

I got the impression there were other potential uses for moon tea, and maybe it was for one of those. Pycelle seems like he's about to go into more detail and Cercei cuts him off before he can finish by saying "I know what moon tea is for." It always gave me the feeling there was more to the story and Cercei just didn't let him get there because as of AFFC, she is written as always thinking no one else has anything valuable to say and that she knows everything.

Didn't Pycelle try to mention that there are completely innocuous uses for moon tea? Easing menstrual cramps or something?

IMHO, Margaery asked _because_ it was all innoncent and she couldn't imagine Cersei going to crazy lengths to rock the boat. Wouldn't surprise me if one of her many cousins had just "flowered", was having a particularly hard time of it and Marge was asking for her. If she was up to anything illicit, I am sure that she wouldn't have turned to Pycelle, it just didn't occur to her how it could be construed and/or that Cersei could want to destroy the alliance that is keeping Tommen on the throne at all costs.

Thanks. I hadn't realised there were other uses for moon tea but that would make sense, considering Margaery political nous.

Cersei " is written as always thinking no one else has anything valuable to say and that she knows everything." Joelene Brown

Yes, she has become such a caricature so quickly. It's a shame, as she seemed so sensible (apart from the incest) when Robert was alive.

Yes, but we also have Lyanna dressing up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and we got Jon Snow out of that. I'm of the theory that all of these women in disguise are foreshadowing something big for Sarella. I'm just not sure what that something is, and like you, I hope it's not something terrible. And, yeah, I agree that there's probably some variety of UST with Leo.

I'd forgotten about Lyanna. At least Sarella seems sensible, smart, not easily provoked (unlike her Dad) and might have some of her uncle's planning ability. She reminds me a bit of Asha, who's sadly underrated by most of the Ironborn.

[Lux Starkgaryen]

Wow y'all, I come from the Re-Read Sansa's threads and I've just finished this one.. I was not disappointed! Great read here!

I am not addressing a post in particular, but for example, going back to a work someone suggested, about the female body - or bodies:

I don't think a complete analysis has been done, not entirely. IIRC the outlet was here but we didn't go into much details; since I found the idea really great maybe we could compare the different ways the female bodies/types are described by the author and by the characters, and see if certain patterns come in it, giving it some significance.

Or, to broaden the issue, this could be applied to the sexualized view of women by the men in Westeros. I think it's already been discussed generally but, back in the Sansa thread I was talking of comparing (even quickly!) the gradual control Dany and Sansa manage to take WRT their sexuality, so, mixing all these thoughts together, how about a little study of how men sexualize women vs how women take control of their sexual life. Like I said I'd like to compare Dany and Sansa (well, up to where their stories are of course, we dont have the end yet...); would it be interesting or has it been already over-talked? If anyone wants to discuss it on another level - or conforming to just one idea: going more in depth with the descriptions of the feminie bodies; the way men regard women sexually speaking etc;, or regarding other characters no problem, just let me know :)

Edited to fix some misspelling/typing in haste