R+L=J v.27

[Lady Octarina]

I think anytime the raven says, "Corn!", we can assume that's just the raven. Because he say's this quite often and no one is ever talking about corn when he says it, so he's not mimicking. So with this logic we can assume that anytime he says something else, such as "Dead" or "King", it's most likely Bloodraven warging into him. He passes off his vital information as mimicking, so that he's subtly influencing them. and so that they don't trip out that a raven is actually talking to them.

I agree, though i do think that only sometimes, when the raven happens to say "Corn" in particularly funny moments, that's not a coincidence; that's Bloodraven's way of having some fun in the life he has now (yeah, Bloodraven the troll. I know I would say all sorts of ridiculous things in his place once in a while) :devil:

Their whole goal was to fulfill the prophecy, so that Jon could have the potential to become AA. Not take the Iron Throne and rule. Being King was never really part of their agenda. It sure as hell wasn't part of Rhaegar's agenda. He was obsessed about prophecy and let his own father rule as a madman. Being king wasn't important to him, saving the realm was.

[...]

And if you really think about it, why would they even want Jon to know about the prophecy stuff? Wouldn't it be better if he lived his life on his own accord, unburdened by the thought of prophecy, so that he may actually fulfill it the way it's supposed to be fulfilled, all natural. When people know about prophecies they become obsessed, and they always try and force it to happen, and they almost always fail. Such as Summerhall.

It is true that Jon would only be king if something happened to Rhaegar and Aegon, but that doesn't mean that, ultimately, they didn't think he would eventually have to take the crown to fulfill it. Hells, we don't live in a medieval-like world, and yet look at the amount of people on these forums that believe all those prophecies can only be fulfilled by a king or a queen! So, yes, I think that Lyanna, instructed by Rhaegar about the prophecy and how it was supposed to work, and knowing that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were all dead, would want him to sit on the throne. Why would Rhaegar marry her if not so that Jon was an heir to said throne? For, if they didn't think that way, TPTWP could just as well be a bastard. Of course, there's the political implications of taking her for a second wife in order to possibly end the war and etc, but since Rhaegar didn't act in that direction, didn't even tell anyone that they were married, I do think it must have had some other purpose.

I agree with you that to fulfill a prophecy it's ideal that the "chosen" or something have no idea of what their future should be and act towards it blindly, on his own. That's how the best stories based on prophecies go, at least. But, like Maxpey said on #80, Rhaegar's behavior suggests he lived his life thinking about how best to fulfill that prophecy, so I really doubt he wouldn't have his son do the same. Maybe Lyanna knew best? Could be. And, well, he let Aerys rule because the madman was the rightful king, and he had no reason to take the throne from him before the war broke. Sure, the man was paranoid and obsessed with fire, but I don't think he had committed any horrible crime like what he did to Rickard and Brandon yet, or what he planned to do with King's Landing. But, anyway, from Jaime's thoughts it is safe to assume that Rhaegar planned on doing something about his father as soon as he returned from the Trident, but Robert ruined that idea (funny how ASoIaF wouldn't exist without Robert's and Joffrey's horrible choices).

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I started reading the books after the third episode of season 1, just 'discovered' the various westeros websites a few months ago... very interesting reading, still dont quite see the fasination with R + L = J, bastard sons/daughters seem to play a significant role in all the books... not sure why Jon needs special parents (also I tend not to like plot twists based upon the character being a hidden special person).

Most of us that believe R+L=J also believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, so Jon wouldn't be just another bastard. I believe the fascination with Jon's parentage excites fans due to it's implications as far as the fantasy elements in the novels. Fans that read the books for the political intrigue often do not feel the same.

I don't think Ned is the most perfect, honorable soul in all of Westeros. I just think that in this decision, he acted as honorably as any person could. I think it's comparable to Jaime killing the pyromancer and Aerys. More lives were spared.

I did find it ironic that Ned searched for the truth about Robert's children, and I don't think it was honorable. Robert had accepted Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen as his own, just as Ned took Jon Snow on as his own. Joffrey's rule might have turned out to be disastrous anyway, but we'll never know.

I have to admit, I will probably never be convinced that Ned keeping Jon's parentage from him wasn't the most honorable thing to do considering adoption runs strong in my family. To me, Ned taking Jon to raise as his own son makes it explicit that Ned intended to raise him as such, not raise him as a potential heir to the throne. He intended for Jon to make decisions based on being the bastard son of Ned Stark, not based on being the possible legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. To use an example, my mother's adoptive parents raised her to be their daughter and make life decisions based on that, not to make decisions based on what her biological parents would have raised her to be.

I think Ned's decision to find the truth about Cersei's children was completely honorable. Robert did not know the truth concerning Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, unlike Ned and Jon. The situations are different, and therefore cannot be compared, IMO.

Ned raising Jon as his own was only to protect Jon. I feel that Ned planned to tell Jon the truth of his parentage, but died before he was able to do so. I also feel that it saddens Ned that Jon has had to live the life of a bastard.

[Teal'c]

I think anytime the raven says, "Corn!", we can assume that's just the raven. Because he say's this quite often and no one is ever talking about corn when he says it, so he's not mimicking. So with this logic we can assume that anytime he says something else, such as "Dead" or "King", it's most likely Bloodraven warging into him. He passes off his vital information as mimicking, so that he's subtly influencing them. and so that they don't trip out that a raven is actually talking to them.

And then to respond to people debating about why didn't Ned consider Jon an heir or that perhaps Lyanna also made him promise to tell him about his heritage so that he could have a right to the throne. I don't get it. That was never Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan for Jon, and definitely not Lyanna's when she was on her deathbed.

Their whole goal was to fulfill the prophecy, so that Jon could have the potential to become AA. Not take the Iron Throne and rule. Being King was never really part of their agenda. It sure as hell wasn't part of Rhaegar's agenda. He was obsessed about prophecy and let his own father rule as a madman. Being king wasn't important to him, saving the realm was.

And I highly doubt that Lyanna made Ned promise anything more than, "keep him safe". She was dying. There was only one thing on her mind. The safety of the child.

And if you really think about it, why would they even want Jon to know about the prophecy stuff? Wouldn't it be better if he lived his life on his own accord, unburdened by the thought of prophecy, so that he may actually fulfill it the way it's supposed to be fulfilled, all natural. When people know about prophecies they become obsessed, and they always try and force it to happen, and they almost always fail. Such as Summerhall.

If Jon is meant to fulfill the prophecy, he will, based off his own free will. And there is no need for him to know about it.

The ironic twist here is that Jon looks to be fulfilling the prophecy, not as the heir to that damned Iron Throne, but as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Ned kept him holed up at Winterfell and let him go off to take the Black without revealing his identity. And lo and behold, through a series of unexpected events, Jon is in charge of the Wall, and soon comes, over or around or through that Wall, the worst threat the realm has known.

The advice that Davos gave to Stannis applies here to Jon as well: win the realm by defending the realm.

[sarina]

I think there's still at least one huge puzzle piece missing as far as the Rhaegar & Lyanna story goes. We know nothing :P

Lyanna must have known what it would mean to go with Rhaegar when he "abducted" her. I also assume she went willingly, but why didn't she inform her family after the deed was done? If Rhaegar married her (and again I assume he did) and did not hold her captive she must have had so much as a raven at her disposal. She knew her father and brothers and their temperament. Why leave them fearing for her well-being? There must be a reason for all the secrecy.

I've thought maybe Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty in front of all people as a first step on his way to taking her as his second wife. Kind of like when John of Gaunt held Katherine Swynford bridle for all the public to see when she was his mistress. It was a huge outrage at the time, but he married her anyways after his second wife died and asked the pope to legitimize the children he and Katherine had had together before their marriage. Mayhaps Rhaegar was trying to get people used to the idea of him and Lyanna.

I've always wondered...is there such a thing as divorce in Westeros?

[Lady Hummingbird]

I agree, though i do think that only sometimes, when the raven happens to say "Corn" in particularly funny moments, that's not a coincidence; that's Bloodraven's way of having some fun in the life he has now (yeah, Bloodraven the troll. I know I would say all sorts of ridiculous things in his place once in a while) :devil:

Totally!!! I would love some Bloodraven trademark crow trolling (we all know Westeros needs some comic relief) but I think it may be just for distraction, as if he didn't want certain things to be told to Jon for some reason.

Most of us that believe R+L=J also believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, so Jon wouldn't be just another bastard. I believe the fascination with Jon's parentage excites fans due to it's implications as far as the fantasy elements in the novels. Fans that read the books for the political intrigue often do not feel the same.

:agree:

I love the subtleties in the book, when GRRM is telling us something that's hidden beneath the actual scene you are reading, to search the little pieces that make all the characters related with each other. There is so much more in this books than just the political intrigue.

[Ser Frankie Crisp]

I think that what partly influenced Jon's choice, though, was that he didn't really fit, if you know what I mean. Of course, he thought of the night's watch as an honourable place to be in, as an elite force, but I believe his choice was partly (and probably unconsciously) due to the fact that there was really nothing else he could do. He couldn't inherit Winterfell and become a lord, couldn't go to King's Landing with his father. Catelyn didn't even want him...

Maybe if he had known the truth, things would have been different. Or maybe he would have decided the same... who knows?

At least, this is what I think ^_^

I agree with you in that Jon's choice was influenced by the fact that he didn't really fit (or didn't feel like he fit; he seems to have actually fit in alright given he had a good relationship with Robb (and even Theon, though I can't remember), Ned, Arya, and likely many others around Wintefell, such as Mikken.) but I have to disagree that he felt that like it was his only option, as he could have just as easily gone on to be a commander, castellan etc. (or possibly even had his own castle and lands given Eddards plans). This doesn't matter too much really, just that I personally believe that Jon's reasoning was less about making the best of a bad situation, and more about overcoming his bastardy, and what comes with it, and the Night's Watch is obviously one of the best places to do this, especially for a "Stark".

And if you really think about it, why would they even want Jon to know about the prophecy stuff? Wouldn't it be better if he lived his life on his own accord, unburdened by the thought of prophecy, so that he may actually fulfill it the way it's supposed to be fulfilled, all natural. When people know about prophecies they become obsessed, and they always try and force it to happen, and they almost always fail. Such as Summerhall.

If Jon is meant to fulfill the prophecy, he will, based off his own free will. And there is no need for him to know about it.

This is the best take on the whole prophecy business I've seen, and has definately made me think that Jon is AA now, even more than I did before. It makes such sense given the way GRRM seems to construct things, in that characters are morally grey so it would make no sense for someone who believes they are a prophesied instrument of good to end up being so.

[Ser Frankie Crisp]

Also, I know a couple of people have mentioned that they believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, and therefore Jon would be in the line of succession. I was just wondering if there was any evidence for this, or is it just a presumption based on the general likelihood that this would have taken place?

[Bushido]

No evidence. Just Mormont's Raven :D

[King Doug]

Also, I know a couple of people have mentioned that they believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, and therefore Jon would be in the line of succession. I was just wondering if there was any evidence for this, or is it just a presumption based on the general likelihood that this would have taken place?

Just speculation. A lot based on Ned Stark and Barristan Selmy's opinions of Rhaegar. Personally, I like to think that Lyanna has a sense of honor as well.

ETA: and the kingsguard at ToJ, how the heck did I forget that?

[King Doug]

I was just rereading through Clash today and came across this quote.

"Yes," said Jon, "but...what if..."

"...he's dead?" Mormont asked, not unkindly.

Jon nodded, reluctantly.

"Dead," the raven said. "Dead. Dead."

I thought this was very interesting. Assuming that Bloodraven does warg into Mormont's raven; to occasionally try and push Jon in the right direction, influence him, or help him. Maybe it's possible Bloodraven knows that Benjen is dead. And he's trying to tell them. Hmm...

Maybe Bloodraven knows the status of Benjen, I do believe that he does. But maybe he knows that he is alive. By telling him that he is dead he is steering in the right direction when Benjen is still alive.

[Teal'c]

Maybe Bloodraven knows the status of Benjen, I do believe that he does. But maybe he knows that he is alive. By telling him that he is dead he is steering in the right direction when Benjen is still alive.

I don't understand; please explain.

[King Doug]

I don't understand; please explain.

Say Benjen is alive. Bloodraven knows this. Assume he is warging the raven when he says "Dead, Dead."

Maybe he is reinforcing the idea that Benjen is dead (even though he isn't), because if Jon Snow still thinks his uncle is alive he might take a different path.

[Lady Octarina]

Also, I know a couple of people have mentioned that they believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, and therefore Jon would be in the line of succession. I was just wondering if there was any evidence for this, or is it just a presumption based on the general likelihood that this would have taken place?

The main reason for this belief are the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, for their priority is always to protect the king, then the rest of the royal family. They knew Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, so they should have gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys; since they didn't go there, it means Jon was more important, and the only way he would be more important was if he was the king, but he could only be the king if Rhaegar took Lyanna as second wife, since there wasn't any way he could have been legitimized, for he was born around the time Aerys died.

[FrozenFire3]

We don't know what it is that Lyanna told Ned... just promise me, Ned. That's all we know. For now. It could have been she only wanted to see her child safe from those who wanted the Targaryens dead and their dynasty ended. She probably knew Robert's wrath would reach her son wherever he went if it was known who he truly was. Whether she asked him to support his royal claim in a distant future... we cannot know. It is highly likely she and Rhaegar were married at some point. It is quite obvious Rhaegar's was not just a fling and that the two shared more, deeply in love with one another (and they were very aware of prophecies, which Rhaegar was obsessed about). When it was clear she was with child too, it was Rhaegar's priority to legitimize him. At this point, Lyanna's will is unclear. She might have told Ned and made him promise to support her son in his claim, but that would have been conflicting with her wanting to protect Jon. Ned probably struggled to make a decision and would have told him sooner or later, I guess. There just wasn't enough time.

As of now, if Aegon is the real Aegon, then the throne is by rights his. He is the eldest. Now, he might be fake, an impostor or simply die at some point? That would leave Jon and Dany. The two might unite and fight together (they probably will have to anyway), or sooner or later end up together and marry?

Ok, this might sound like madness and I'm probably imagining things xD

[Bushido]

The main reason for this belief are the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, for their priority is always to protect the king, then the rest of the royal family. They knew Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, so they should have gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys; since they didn't go there, it means Jon was more important, and the only way he would be more important was if he was the king, but he could only be the king if Rhaegar took Lyanna as second wife, since there wasn't any way he could have been legitimized, for he was born around the time Aerys died.

What makes me wonder is how would Kingsguard know what is happening in King's Landing. Data,from whom,how? Raven? Sent by who? So many questions...

[Lady Octarina]

What makes me wonder is how would Kingsguard know what is happening in King's Landing. Data,from whom,how? Raven? Sent by who? So many questions...

My personal belief is that they kept in touch with the rest of the world via Starfall. It's not that absurd to imagine that Arthur Dayne would occasionally ride there to visit his family and hear some news, since the Daynes might have been more deeply into all that was happening than we know for sure. What is certain from Ned's conversation with them is that they knew what had happened and they still chose to stay there.

[gougef]

My personal belief is that they kept in touch with the rest of the world via Starfall. It's not that absurd to imagine that Arthur Dayne would occasionally ride there to visit his family and hear some news, since the Daynes might have been more deeply into all that was happening than we know for sure. What is certain from Ned's conversation with them is that they knew what had happened and they still chose to stay there.

Didn't Hightower show up later than Dayne and the Whent? Or did I imagine reading that somewhere?

[Thendel]

Ned raising Jon as his own was only to protect Jon. I feel that Ned planned to tell Jon the truth of his parentage, but died before he was able to do so. I also feel that it saddens Ned that Jon has had to live the life of a bastard.

I also think Ned intended to tell Jon someday, but he never really mustered the courage. As for his reasons:

1) Telling Jon could mean "losing" him as a son. Ned didn't want for children, but telling the truth would definitely alter his relationship with Jon forever. Jon would never again be able to call him "father" with earnesty. A selfish reason, I know, but even Ned can be selfish in that regard.

2) Meeting Robert again reaffirmed that his best buddy's hatred of the Targs hasn't faded at all. Ned wouldn't consider it the best of political climates in which to tell a secret son of Rhaegar of his real parentage and claim to the throne.

3) Most importantly, telling Jon would put a enormous burden on his shoulders. At that time, Jon was still only 14 years old, which Ned would consider still too young to carry it without being crushed by it. And even when he could be considered old enough, knowing won't make Jon's life any happier, to say the least. A parent only wants his child, even a foster child, to be happy. This was evidenced by his initial relunctance to sending him to the Wall at so young an age.

[Bushido]

My personal belief is that they kept in touch with the rest of the world via Starfall. It's not that absurd to imagine that Arthur Dayne would occasionally ride there to visit his family and hear some news, since the Daynes might have been more deeply into all that was happening than we know for sure. What is certain from Ned's conversation with them is that they knew what had happened and they still chose to stay there.

It crossed my mind,yes - just news travel so slow and often distort in the process. (this got me thinking that ToJ could be located in the westernmost parts of Dornish Marshes: the necessity to be close to Starfall,and this could explain the choice of the hiding place - suggested by Arthur,who knew the territory well)

[Lady Octarina]

It crossed my mind,yes - just news travel so slow and often distort in the process. (this got me thinking that ToJ could be located in the westernmost parts of Dornish Marshes: the necessity to be close to Starfall,and this could explain the choice of the hiding place - suggested by Arthur,who knew the territory well)

Actually, the ToJ is in the Prince's Pass, which, curiously, is located at the exact point between Starfall and Summerhall. So, maybe, the fact that it lies between the place Rhaegar was so obsessed with and the home to his best friend suggests that Rhaegar himself found it and thought to take Lyanna there when he "kidnapped" her.