R+L=J v.27

[Ribupr]

Does Ned seem like the kind of man who would not own his mistakes? Besides, this might work if he never saw her again and never knew she bore him a son; however, I find it implausible that he wouldn't bother to find out her name once Jon was delivered to him.

I feel dumb I didn't even think of that. Its 5 in the morning so I don't entirely blame myself.

[Lady Octarina]

I have a theory that I haven't heard yet relating to this topic...

FACT: Howland Reed hasn't left the Neck since the end of Roberts rebellion

FACT: Eddard and Howland are really good friends

FACT: (I don't remember where but...) Jojen and Meera dodge questions relating to their father and other things surrounding the Tourney at Harrenhall.

Im not sure if I believe this but its worth an argument........What if Lyanna had a child with Rheagar as suspected, and after the war, Howland Reed took him to the Neck to keep him under guard (Which is why he never left). I do believe Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn, but a part of me believes the son of Lyanna and Rheagar is a different person entirely.

I understand the whole honorable Eddard thing, but he just saw his sister die and killed a lot of good men. I also think he was overcome with guilt after realizing Lyanna and Rhaegar were happy together. So I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility he slipped up and slept with another woman, hence Jon.

Well, there is a theory I first heard of on this thread (was that you, Alia of the Knife?) saying that, basically, part of the reason for all this secrecy and Howland Reed's absence is that he is indeed hiding a child, that would be Meera. She'd be Jon's twin sister.

[TheonGreyjoy]

But it would be strange that this secret child which was supposed to be the heir for the throne, is not introduced in one of the 5 previous book yet. That means that GRRM only have 2 books for one of the ultra key characters in the whole story. I just dont believe it. And if it was a twin, why would Ned only take one of them home?

[Maxpey]

Which, however, brings us back to the question that no-one has been able to answer: if Ned slept with someone, what's so supersecret about it that he can't tell Jon who his mother was?

I have tried to answer this question before.

The only plausible explanation I can give is that Jon's mother (presumably Ashara Dayne) helped Ned hide Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Ned was afraid that if he revealed her her true identity to anyone, including Jon, it might eventually get back to Robert, who would then start asking questions about what really happened at the TOJ. As we all know, this is something that Ned desperately wanted to avoid.

However, as opposed to R + L = J, this answer is based almost entirely on speculation rather than reasonable inferences from the text. Not only that, it would mean that there is an unidentified child out there that has not been accounted for in the text. Or has it? (JK!) :D

In all seriousness, I think we should all just accept that R + L = J is true.

That having been said, I still like to hear alternate theories. That is part of the reason that this forum is so much fun.

[Buried Treasure]

The Meera idea I find utterly crazy. Beside the fact her description makes her seem every inch one of the crannog people, it would be very odd for Howland to claim an unrelated child as his own legitimate child. Until Jojen was born Meera was his heir.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, there is a theory I first heard of on this thread (was that you, Alia of the Knife?) saying that, basically, part of the reason for all this secrecy and Howland Reed's absence is that he is indeed hiding a child, that would be Meera. She'd be Jon's twin sister.

I saw that theory by another poster many months ago, and it actually seemed to fit the way Martin uses double entendre's- that was before Alfie Allens suggestion of the Luke Skywalker scenario with hidden parentage, and possible twins, (which would explain Lyannas death just beyond insufficient care), tthough the mention of twins seemed to make people angry, but now it's open to possibility.

- Mel keeps seeing a vision of Jons sister which people take to be Arya, then it's actually Karstark who shows up, and that throws everyone off, because we know it's not Arya.

If Meera shows up fleeing BR lair, and ends up at th Wall, there is your double meaning. because Mels vision is right, but she and Jon still think it's wrong, because neither of them realize Meera is his true sister.

-Also, at the time of Harrenhal, it made it sound as if Reed was only a little older than Benjen, and if he was already married, would he just run off for adventure, leaving a wife behind?

Meera is Jons age is he not?, so when did Reed get the chance to do that?

I thought he was with Ned most of the time.

There may be an element to the environment that makes people's eyes green, just as in Dune, the environment there turned the natives eyes blue.

If Reed made the decision to take her, then he would have to make her his heir if crannog women are allowed to do that, because otherwise, passing her over would seem strange to his society.

In this sense, he is making the same painful decision that Ned made in raising a non-bastard a bastard with all the cruel stigma that comes with it. Reed is potentially bypassing his own blood for inheritance to keep up appearances.

[Mladen]

My theory of what happened during Harrenhall tournament and Robert`s rebellion with Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar.

As we all know, the reign of Mad King had not been so peaceful and joyous, and it was just a matter of time before it ends. We have proofs of his paranoia, cruelty and madness. But also he has a son, prince Rhaegar, someone everybody liked. He was a good, decent and rather honorable man who loved poetry. As far as we know, he would have been a great King. Except of Robert Baratheon, there is no one who told Rhaegar was anything else than a good man, even a man whose sister was abducted by him (aka Ned Stark).

Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, and by many testimonies, it was marriage of duty and not love, respect but not passion. And they had a daughter, Rhaenys. So, everything was well until tournament at Harrenhall. What actually happened there? And now from solid facts of GRRM, I take you on my thoughts of those events and my theory how all happened.

When the tournament was announced, Rhaegar and Elia had a daughter, Rhaenys. Since we have proofs it was a tough labor, and we heard that Elia almost bleed out, it is almost safe to say that next pregnancy wouldn`t be viable. In that case, upon Rhaegar`s death, throne would go to Viserys. Even then, when Viserys was still a child, symptoms of the same paranoia his father had was notable, and he was indeed Aerys`s son, the one who would inherit his cruelty and madness(which ultimately he did). So, it isn`t strange to believe that Rhaegar thought having a son would be salvation for entire kingdom. But Elia couldn`t have given him that, so they had to be inventive. Elia and Rhaegar were together, and they maybe weren`t in love with each other, they would certainly do anything to protect the other one. So, tournament at Harrenhall was excellent opportunity to meet a girl dignified enough to bear a king`s son. Since Elia was going, I believe that half of maidens of Westeros were brought there to be presented in front of a Princess. So, all they had to do is to pick someone from the crowd. Since keeping a secret in Red Keep was absolutely impossible, Varys found out that something was going on and immediately informed Aerys about his son`s intentions to visit Harrenhall. Aerys, in all his paranoia, had thought that his son is conspiring with noble lords (those that were present: Stark, Baratheon, Tyrell, Martell, Tully, Arryn) to overthrown him. So, he went to Harrenhall thinking how he is going to stop that.

Plan Elia and Rhaegar had thought, had to be shared with someone. Elia confined to Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar to his best friend Ser Arthur Dayne. In some point, I also think that ELia offered Ashara who would keep a secret, but Rhaegar denied due to his friendship with Arthur. They all went to Harrenhall, where Rhaegar saw all noblewomen of Westeros, but he noticed the wrongest possible one, Lyanna Stark. I believe he deeply fell in love, and so did she, but she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon, and she was also Stark of Winterfell. All of that worked against their plan, but Rhaegar was determined to continue.

Now, we know what happened next. Rhaegar abducted Lyanna(I think she really wasn`t willing to go with him at the very beginning). Brandon and Rickard Stark were executed and finally Rebellion started. Lyanna was brought to Tower of Joy to be kept safe.

Meanwhile, Rebellion was destructible for royalists. They were losing battle by battle. Lyanna was safe in TOJ, and also she was falling in love with Rhaegar. I believe that Elia herself had visited her and told her about plan. Ashara and Elia faked princess`s pregnancy (which wasn`t that difficult). Lyanna got pregnant and nine months after, she had twins. She gave birth to one son with astonishing Targaryen look, and another with Stark features. Rhaegar took one that looked more like him, named him Aegon, and left knights of Kingsguard to protect the second child. Elia, in court, faked labor(now, that would be much more difficult to perform but she was smart woman, and I see her doing what must be done, like having a midwife that was executed afterwards and so on), and presented Lyanna`s son as her own.

Finally, Royalists were crushed, Rhaegar was killed, Sack of KL occurred and Elia was also dead. Ned Stark marched to TOJ where Lyanna begged him to protect her son from Robert`s anger. After that, he with Howland Reed went to Starfall to meet with Ashara who told him everything. Together, they named a child Jon (after someone very dear to Ned). Ned told everyone that Jon is his bastard, and forbid everyone to talk about Ashara or anything related to her.

Since i am pointed to this thread, I have no other way to share piece of my mind. Your thoughts?

[knownothing]

rmholt, I can't figure out how to do multiple qoutes but this is the first of our posts to each other. I was responding primarily to your comment that Jon was taken to Starfall to BE edric's milk brother.

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rmholt, on 23 June 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Ned pulled down the ToJ. Jon was at Starfall (to be Edric;s milk brother) until he went north. No reason to think Wylla went along - she served Starfall - just some wetnurse (and not Nan, either!)

knownothing:

I don't disagree that Wylla possibly did not go to Winterfell, another wet nurse may have. But, Jon was not at Starfall to be Edric's milk brother. Edric is a few years younger than Jon. They are 'milk brothers ' only because at some point Jon (whether at the TOJ or Starfall for a period of time, or both) and Edric each had Wylla as a wetnurse. That is all a milk brother/sister means, that at one point children were nursed by the same woman and not necessarily at the same time.

.................................................................................

Ygrain and another poster said what I was trying to, that Jon may have been in need of a wetnurse at the TOJ whether it was Wylla or not. We don't know how long he there before the TOJ was taken down. But, being as Edric was not yet born , Jon was not taken to Starfall to be Edric's milk brother.

None of tis is a big deal. I just wanted to clarify why I commented about your post above initially. :drunk:

[Lady Octarina]

-Also, at the time of Harrenhal, it made it sound as if Reed was only a little older than Benjen, and if he was already married, would he just run off for adventure, leaving a wife behind?

Meera is Jons age is he not?, so when did Reed get the chance to do that?

I thought he was with Ned most of the time.

There may be an element to the environment that makes people's eyes green, just as in Dune, the environment there turned the natives eyes blue.

And this is the main element that leads me to consider the theory plausible. Of course, Meera is Jon's age, which means she was conceived some time around the rebellion. We don't know enough about Reed to be sure that's a possibility, which may also be on purpose. Of course, against this theory there's the fact that Bran never notices she looks like Arya or anything, which is what one would expect from Lyanna's daughter, though that's not necessary. Argh! I really don't know what to think about it! lol

But well, this is a nice theory for those who believe in the literal interpretation of "the dragon has three heads" thing: if Meera was the third head, Aegon can be fake and Tyrion can just be Tywin's son once again. :P

[Lady Octarina]

When the tournament was announced, Rhaegar and Elia had a daughter, Rhaenys. Since we have proofs it was a tough labor, and we heard that Elia almost bleed out, it is almost safe to say that next pregnancy wouldn`t be viable. In that case, upon Rhaegar`s death, throne would go to Viserys. Even then, when Viserys was still a child, symptoms of the same paranoia his father had was notable, and he was indeed Aerys`s son, the one who would inherit his cruelty and madness(which ultimately he did). So, it isn`t strange to believe that Rhaegar thought having a son would be salvation for entire kingdom. But Elia couldn`t have given him that, so they had to be inventive. Elia and Rhaegar were together, and they maybe weren`t in love with each other, they would certainly do anything to protect the other one. So, tournament at Harrenhall was excellent opportunity to meet a girl dignified enough to bear a king`s son.

I really like this idea. But...

Meanwhile, Rebellion was destructible for royalists. They were losing battle by battle. Lyanna was safe in TOJ, and also she was falling in love with Rhaegar. I believe that Elia herself had visited her and told her about plan. Ashara and Elia faked princess`s pregnancy (which wasn`t that difficult). Lyanna got pregnant and nine months after, she had twins. She gave birth to one son with astonishing Targaryen look, and another with Stark features. Rhaegar took one that looked more like him, named him Aegon, and left knights of Kingsguard to protect the second child. Elia, in court, faked labor(now, that would be much more difficult to perform but she was smart woman, and I see her doing what must be done, like having a midwife that was executed afterwards and so on), and presented Lyanna`s son as her own.

...Aegon is supposed to be about a year older than Jon, so this central part in the theory doesn't really work.

[FrozenFire3]

The thread just passed 432 posts... going to start a new one ;)